The Fall!

[POI]

Otseng stated "Yes, I believe the fall is a thing. As for why, it is out of scope for the current discussion, but can be addressed later."

Your wish has been granted.

For debate: Outside the claim being made from an ancient human writing, why is the assertion of 'the fall' a real thing?

[Mae von H]

Otseng stated "Yes, I believe the fall is a thing. As for why, it is out of scope for the current discussion, but can be addressed later."

Your wish has been granted.

For debate: Outside the claim being made from an ancient human writing, why is the assertion of 'the fall' a real thing?

Calling an event in human history “a thing” is rather strange because it’s an event, not a “thing.” Nevertheless it is accepted as real history because of its explanatory power.

From reading the posts, I gather that no atheist understands it which makes it easier, of course, to discredit. Best explain it.

The Rebellion, a more accurate description, enables us to understand both how a man can be of such high moral quality that it brings tears to the eyes in hearing of acts of heroism and self-sacrifice for others as well as such cruelty as to boggle the mind. No creature on the planet is capable of such heights of goodness and depths of evil. This defies evolution….and yet this state of man’s capacity is undeniable. It explains why offspring of the same parents, the same environment, the same genetics can be in one case an honorable gentle man and the other a vile murderer. Adam and Eve had a moral choice. They were tempted and chose evil. Jesus was tempted and chose good.

And from Jesus’ sacrifice have men, those who choose it, become a force for powerful moral good in the world. From the sacrifice of Christ, man can be different and we see this in the christ followers and Christ empowered men ending slavery, establishing hospitals and schools, ending political tyranny and establishing rule of law and justice. If one dares to read about life and governments before Christ as compared to now, it’s astounding. But I digress.

The Rebellion explains our moral capacity. Nothing else does. This is because it’s demonstrates our freedom to make moral choices. Any other explanation makes us subject to outside forces which fails to explains differences in men despite the same outside forces.

[TRANSPONDER]

Once again, Christianity taking the best efforts of humans and claiming the credit for it.

Just as a lit of evils, atrocities and exploitation by those in that same religion is of course 'what men do' while God, impotent even to loosen their hearts or appear as a ball of light asking why they are persecuting people, stands by, wringing His Invisible Hands, and does about what would be done if there wasn't a god there at all.

[POI]

The Rebellion, a more accurate description,

Thanks for the needless quibble. 'The Rebellion' can still most certainly be called "a thing".

enables us to understand both how a man can be of such high moral quality that it brings tears to the eyes in hearing of acts of heroism and self-sacrifice for others as well as such cruelty as to boggle the mind.

Sounds like your argument here is that because humans possess empathy, not only does God exist, but the Christian God?

No creature on the planet is capable of such heights of goodness and depths of evil.

So, because humans possess a unique quality, God exists again?

Adam and Eve had a moral choice. They were tempted and chose evil. Jesus was tempted and chose good.

Adam and Eve were literal humans in recorded history? Please remain focused on my OP question. Aside from the assertion in Genesis, what evidence actually supports this assertion?

The Rebellion explains our moral capacity. Nothing else does. This is because it’s demonstrates our freedom to make moral choices. Any other explanation makes us subject to outside forces which fails to explains differences in men despite the same outside forces.

I instead argue this story line was either purely metaphorical, or, thought a higher power was giving them advanced knowledge which turns out to likely be false, or, author(s) were trying to explain the unexplained in the best way they could -- (at the time).

[Mae von H]

The Rebellion, a more accurate description,

Thanks for the needless quibble. 'The Rebellion' can still most certainly be called "a thing".

Words matter.

enables us to understand both how a man can be of such high moral quality that it brings tears to the eyes in hearing of acts of heroism and self-sacrifice for others as well as such cruelty as to boggle the mind.

Sounds like your argument here is that because humans possess empathy, not only does God exist, but the Christian God?

Not even close. We alone are moral creatures who can choose right or wrong and know the difference. Empathy plays little role.

No creature on the planet is capable of such heights of goodness and depths of evil.

So, because humans possess a unique quality, God exists again?

Where did I mention God existing? Why do you bring Him into this thing?

Adam and Eve had a moral choice. They were tempted and chose evil. Jesus was tempted and chose good.

Adam and Eve were literal humans in recorded history? Please remain focused on my OP question. Aside from the assertion in Genesis, what evidence actually supports this assertion?

I told you, the power of explanation of what we actually observe.

The Rebellion explains our moral capacity. Nothing else does. This is because it’s demonstrates our freedom to make moral choices. Any other explanation makes us subject to outside forces which fails to explains differences in men despite the same outside forces.

I instead argue this story line was either purely metaphorical, or, thought a higher power was giving them advanced knowledge which turns out to likely be false, or, author(s) were trying to explain the unexplained in the best way they could -- (at the time).

Ok, a metaphor for what reality?

[POI]

Mea We alone are moral creatures who can choose right or wrong and know the difference.

POI If we know the difference, then why does no one universally agree on knowing the difference? (i.e.) abortion, euthanasia, gay rights, alcohol use, slavery practices, the spoils of war, etc etc etc etc etc etc..........? Until you definitively answer this question, your prior response is completely baseless.

Mae I told you, the power of explanation of what we actually observe.

POI I do not observe what you observe. Why is that?

Mea Ok, a metaphor for what reality?

POI The reality we live in.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #16]

Look at you fighting the weeds in your garden. Keeping snakes out, keeping guard against bad ideas.

Stop taking the fall so seriously .... .

...

Actually that is why the fall is so central. It sits below the foundations of our thoughts. Even the devil does gardening trying to kill off the Messiah.

What?
I thought the fall was just a religious idea so that the said religion had something to save you from.
(You wont buy the medicine unless you are first convinced that you are sick after all).

Makes more sense to me than devils and demigods. Surely you agree, no?

[William]

Jungian archetypes can provide a framework for understanding the roles and dynamics of characters in a story. Here's how the characters from the biblical account of the Garden of Eden might fit into Jungian archetypes:

Adam:

Archetype: The Innocent or Everyman
Explanation: Adam represents the archetype of the Innocent or Everyman, as he is initially pure and unaware of good and evil before eating the forbidden fruit. He symbolizes the innocence and potential of humanity before the fall.

Eve:

Archetype: The Mother or The Lover
Explanation: Eve embodies aspects of the Mother archetype, as she is the source of life and nurturance in the Garden of Eden. Additionally, she can be seen as embodying aspects of the Lover archetype, particularly in her desire for knowledge and experience.

The Serpent:

Archetype: The Trickster or The Shadow
Explanation: The Serpent serves as a Trickster figure, tempting Eve to eat the forbidden fruit and thereby instigating the fall of humanity. It also embodies elements of the Shadow archetype, representing the darker aspects of human nature and the unconscious.

God:

Archetype: The Creator or The Wise Old Man
Explanation: God represents the Creator archetype, as the divine source of all existence and the authority figure in the Garden of Eden. Additionally, God can be viewed as embodying aspects of the Wise Old Man archetype, providing guidance and wisdom to Adam and Eve.
These are just one interpretation of how the characters from the biblical account of the Garden of Eden might fit into the Jungian archetype framework. Depending on the interpretation and emphasis of the story, there may be other archetypal aspects to consider as well.

Including the Garden of Eden itself within the Jungian archetype framework can provide deeper insight into its symbolic significance and its role in the story. Let's explore:

The Garden of Eden within the Jungian Archetype Framework:
1. The Garden as the Paradise:
• Archetype: The Paradise or Utopia
• Explanation: The Garden of Eden represents the archetype of Paradise or Utopia, a place of perfection, harmony, and bliss. It symbolizes the ideal state of existence, free from suffering, conflict, and the burdens of consciousness.
• Within the Garden, Adam and Eve experience a state of innocence and unity with nature, where their needs are provided for and they live in perfect harmony with their surroundings.
• This archetype reflects humanity's longing for an idealized state of existence, where all desires are fulfilled, and there is no knowledge of pain or sorrow.

2. The Garden as the Archetypal Mother:
• Archetype: The Mother or The Womb
• Explanation: The Garden of Eden can also be viewed as embodying aspects of the Mother archetype, symbolizing fertility, nourishment, and protection.
• Like a nurturing mother, the Garden provides for Adam and Eve's needs, offering them sustenance and shelter. It is a source of life and abundance, where they can thrive and grow.
• This archetype reflects humanity's longing for a sense of security and belonging, akin to the comfort and protection provided by the maternal figure.

3. The Garden as the Archetypal Unconscious:
• Archetype: The Unconscious or The Shadow
• Explanation: The Garden of Eden can be seen as representing the archetype of the Unconscious, containing hidden depths, mysteries, and potential dangers.
• Just as the unconscious mind holds both light and dark aspects of the psyche, the Garden contains both the Tree of Life, symbolizing growth and vitality, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, representing the potential for moral awareness and existential questioning.
• This archetype reflects humanity's encounter with the unknown and the inherent tension between conscious awareness and unconscious impulses.

By incorporating the Garden of Eden into the Jungian archetype framework, we can better understand its symbolic significance within the biblical narrative, as well as its broader implications for human psychology and existential themes.

Since the story also implies that this Garden is positioned within a exterior reality which is less cultured – we should include that exterior in the framework too.

Considering the exterior reality surrounding the Garden of Eden within the Jungian archetype framework can provide additional layers of meaning to the story. Let's explore how this external reality might be interpreted:

The Exterior Reality Surrounding the Garden of Eden within the Jungian Archetype Framework:
1. The Exterior Reality as the Wilderness:
• Archetype: The Wilderness or The Unknown
• Explanation: The exterior reality surrounding the Garden of Eden can be viewed as embodying the archetype of the Wilderness or the Unknown, symbolizing untamed nature, chaos, and the primal forces of the universe.
• Outside the confines of the Garden, there exists a wild and uncharted landscape, representing the vastness of the external world beyond human civilization. It is a realm of mystery and danger, where survival is uncertain and challenges abound.
• This archetype reflects humanity's primal instincts and the struggle to navigate the unpredictable and uncontrollable aspects of the natural world.

2. The Exterior Reality as the Archetypal Shadow:
• Archetype: The Shadow or The Other
• Explanation: The exterior reality can also be interpreted as embodying aspects of the Shadow archetype, representing the repressed or denied aspects of the psyche and society.
• Outside the protected confines of the Garden, there may exist elements of darkness, conflict, and temptation. This exterior reality serves as a contrast to the purity and innocence of the Garden, highlighting the dualistic nature of human existence.
• This archetype reflects humanity's confrontation with its own darker impulses and the existential struggle to integrate and reconcile opposing forces within the self and society.

3. The Exterior Reality as the Archetypal Quest:
• Archetype: The Quest or The Journey
• Explanation: The exterior reality surrounding the Garden of Eden can also be seen as embodying the archetype of the Quest or the Journey, representing the hero's journey into the unknown in search of self-discovery and enlightenment.
• Leaving the safety of the Garden, Adam and Eve embark on a journey into the external world, where they encounter challenges, temptations, and opportunities for growth. This journey represents the quest for knowledge, experience, and individuation.
• This archetype reflects humanity's innate desire for exploration and adventure, as well as the transformative power of facing adversity and overcoming obstacles on the path to self-realization.

By incorporating the exterior reality surrounding the Garden of Eden into the Jungian archetype framework, we can gain deeper insights into the symbolic significance of the biblical narrative and its broader implications for human psychology and existential themes.

[Mae von H]

Mea We alone are moral creatures who can choose right or wrong and know the difference.

POI If we know the difference, then why does no one universally agree on knowing the difference? (i.e.) abortion, euthanasia, gay rights, alcohol use, slavery practices, the spoils of war, etc etc etc etc etc etc..........? Until you definitively answer this question, your prior response is completely baseless.

So your position is humans never agreed on anything being wrong? Murder is never wrong to some? Rape is never ever wrong to some? Theft is never wrong to
some? Even if these things happen to them, they don’t see it as wrong? Really? Or if it happens to their father or mother or children? It’s still not wrong?

Mae I told you, the power of explanation of what we actually observe.

POI I do not observe what you observe. Why is that?

Because you filter out what you don’t want to see. If you were raped and robbed, you’d expect others to agree it was WRONG. You’d not expect some to say it wasn’t wrong. This you don’t see.

Mea Ok, a metaphor for what reality?

POI The reality we live in.

Ah so now The Rebellion explains the reality we live in. So now you see it and now you don’t.

[POI]

Mae So your position is humans never agreed on anything being wrong? Murder is never wrong to some? Rape is never ever wrong to some? Theft is never wrong to some? Even if these things happen to them, they don’t see it as wrong? Really? Or if it happens to their father or mother or children? It’s still not wrong?

POI Please do not present a strawman argument. I've listed many topics of which are not virtually universal in knowing whether they are "right" or "wrong". Why not address any of the ones I mentioned? (i.e.): abortion, and/or euthanasia, and/or gay rights, and/or alcohol use, and/or slavery practices, and/or the spoils of war. Why do we not universally agree to the "rightness" and "wrongness" on these listed topics, as they too fall under the topic of 'morality'?

Mae Because you filter out what you don’t want to see.

POI Prove it.

Mae Ah so now The Rebellion explains the reality we live in. So now you see it and now you don’t.

POI I do not believe in a 'rebellion', or 'the fall'. You do. In our collective reality in which we share, if we wish to cohabitate with one another, and since we are more or less a tribal species, we must find ways to successfully cohabitate with one another.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #37]
To continue with the insights...

Since the story also implies that this Garden is positioned within an exterior reality which is less cultured – we should include that exterior in the framework too.

Considering the exterior reality surrounding the Garden of Eden within the Jungian archetype framework can provide additional layers of meaning to the story. Let's explore how this external reality might be interpreted:

The Exterior Reality Surrounding the Garden of Eden within the Jungian Archetype Framework:

1. The Exterior Reality as the Wilderness:

• Archetype: The Wilderness or The Unknown
• Explanation: The exterior reality surrounding the Garden of Eden can be viewed as embodying the archetype of the Wilderness or the Unknown, symbolizing untamed nature, chaos, and the primal forces of the universe.

• Outside the confines of the Garden, there exists a wild and uncharted landscape, representing the vastness of the external world beyond human civilization. It is a realm of mystery and danger, where survival is uncertain and challenges abound.
• This archetype reflects humanity's primal instincts and the struggle to navigate the unpredictable and uncontrollable aspects of the natural world.

2. The Exterior Reality as the Archetypal Shadow:

• Archetype: The Shadow or The Other
• Explanation: The exterior reality can also be interpreted as embodying aspects of the Shadow archetype, representing the repressed or denied aspects of the psyche and society.
• Outside the protected confines of the Garden, there may exist elements of darkness, conflict, and temptation. This exterior reality serves as a contrast to the purity and innocence of the Garden, highlighting the dualistic nature of human existence.
• This archetype reflects humanity's confrontation with its own darker impulses and the existential struggle to integrate and reconcile opposing forces within the self and society.

3. The Exterior Reality as the Archetypal Quest:

• Archetype: The Quest or The Journey
• Explanation: The exterior reality surrounding the Garden of Eden can also be seen as embodying the archetype of the Quest or the Journey, representing the hero's journey into the unknown in search of self-discovery and enlightenment.
• Leaving the safety of the Garden, Adam and Eve embark on a journey into the external world, where they encounter challenges, temptations, and opportunities for growth. This journey represents the quest for knowledge, experience, and individuation.
• This archetype reflects humanity's innate desire for exploration and adventure, as well as the transformative power of facing adversity and overcoming obstacles on the path to self-realization.

By incorporating the exterior reality surrounding the Garden of Eden into the Jungian archetype framework, we can gain deeper insights into the symbolic significance of the biblical narrative and its broader implications for human psychology and existential themes.