The Fall!

[POI]

Otseng stated "Yes, I believe the fall is a thing. As for why, it is out of scope for the current discussion, but can be addressed later."

Your wish has been granted.

For debate: Outside the claim being made from an ancient human writing, why is the assertion of 'the fall' a real thing?

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #153]

Göbekli Tepe is about 12,000 years old and they worshipped a snake goddess. How did they come up with this snake goddess idea and was it any different then how other god concepts came about?
There is even credible evidence of religious/ritualistic behavior from around the Middle Paleolithic era (45–200 thousand years ago).

You make a relevant point.

It is a matter of taking a mind-concept (God) and dressing it up (imaging it) in the form of - in this case a snake - and in the case of the Abrahamic concept, that of a human, and then worshiping that.

One can even take a book, call it "holy" and worship that as "the word of God".

It's pretty interesting that the snake appears in a number of religions. And there is a religion that calls their book "holy" and worships it to some degree. You can insult their deity all you want but do not insult their book. Rip out a page in public and they feel justified in killing you. Scary!

[Mae von H]

[Replying to William in post #126]

Just so you know, God started communicating with me and I responded as a child. Maybe I was around 10 years old. We attended the Lutheran church, no sect.

This was many decades before I heard the theology that God no longer speaks personally and directly to people. I didn’t know “He had lapsed into silence”
but simply responded as well as addressed Him. So I started walking with God as a child. Your theory does not match real life.

I was a born again, tongue talking, drunk in the Holy Ghost, street evangelist and missionary for 2 decades (not a missionary the entire time to be clear). If I can be set free from my walk with this god concept, there is hope for you.
Ironically, I am now more Christ-like (loving and accepting) then ever after having lost my religious beliefs. I'm no longer saddled with having to believe that Muslims or homosexuals for example belong to burn in a hell for all of eternity. It was very liberating being set free form all this and I honestly believe I am now a better human for it.

Actually I do not find you at all to be Christ-like, loving or accepting. I find your posts to be personally insulting and jeering. POI is more Christ-like than you are and I am willing to exchange with him anytime but you I need to ignore as your posts are fairly caustic and insulting at times. So you are greatly mistaken in the kind of person you have become.

I notice you had the pentecostal experience but no walking with God. I notice no repentance and I am not at all surprised that you had all these experiences and were never taught to talk with Him. This is typical for churches today. It is "come and experience" God or whatever. Of course they want more "members" in their club but call it evangelize and not recruiting. This is, of course, so those people don't end up in. hell, not increase their club membership. Pardon me if i am a bit cynical, but I do not expect you will disagree on their preaching focus.

That a Christian may look down on me for being ok with Muslims and their beliefs or homosexuals and their desires means nothing to me anymore. A person must first feel sick (inherited sin from Adam and Eve), take the medicine (Jesus's sacrifice on the cross) and belong to the club (others that share the belief) in order to look down on such things.

In over 40 years I never heard anyone say that a person must "feel sick" and "take the medicine" Jesus offers. Never once. You are making that up and I wish you would not. You are first person I ever heard refusing to acknowledge that sin is wrong choices and you are the first to insist that a person needs to recognize that they are "sick" to receive Jesus. I showed you twice the scripture you use says Jesus said some are well and some are sick. This you ignored. And repenting of your wrong choices and receiving forgiveness is NOT taking medicine, although I do not blame you entirely for this false picture. Your description is very close to some preaching.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #153]

Humans create gods all the time.
Clownboat is a human.
Therefore clownboat creates gods.

I don't disagree on that.

The issue for me is that we be conscious of this and think about what god we are following.

Since god concepts are imagined/created by humans, it matters not which imagined god concept one follows. It's no different then believing in Santa while your next door neighbor rejects Santa, but believes in the Easter Bunny. Neither are real, neither are going to bring you presents nor candy/fertility and that is the point.

You know this already though I suspect, which is why you quoted my post, but didn't answer the questions I posed to you that would expose this. I get it, it's uncomfortable acknowledging the fact that god concepts have been around for longer than many Christians believe the earth is old.

There was a time that I was indoctrinated to believe that Christianity was the first religion. In reality, it is just one of many and there are 10's of thousands of years of humans inventing gods prior to you being convinced that one of them is in fact real. Then, when we examine why most people believe in the god concept that they believe in, it comes down to geography of all things.

Imagine a believer in a religions admitting this: "I believe that my god concept is true, because of where I was born". Especially now that we know how god concept come about.

I'm open to the idea of there being a God or Gods, but I do need better reasoning than geography and faith. Perhaps one day you will be in a similar position? Examining ancient religions will assist you.

[Clownboat]

Wootah, this is likely challenge that will not have a good outcome.

Agreed, better reasoning is needed.

Either you talk about what you know about Him personally and they will dismiss that as anecdotal or you will point to His creation which they ignorantly find fault with thinking they could do better.

Um.... this is valid reasoning though.
A Muslim can't just point to a rock and have Allah be proven.
Imagine that happened to you and the response from the Muslim is that you are ignorantly at fault like you naively claim above. Do you see how silly this reasoning you are using is? You would not respect such reasoning from a Muslim and you know it, yet use it here as if it is valid.

If a human designed anything that had to function and did function for 100 years without needing a design change, the creator would be lauded.

I don't think you thought this through very well. If a humans was all powerful and all knowing (like the god concept you are comparing this to), this would be expected, not lauded.

God makes reproducing living creatures that have endured millennia and it is not good enough.

What! Please provide an example of this happening or be honorable and retract your claim for being unevidenced.
We already know how living creatures reproduce and no god concept, yours included are necessary nor evidenced.

Full circle... better reasoning IS needed indeed.

[Clownboat]

Actually I do not find you at all to be Christ-like, loving or accepting. I find your posts to be personally insulting and jeering.

Apparently Mae von H doesn't understand that they are on a debate site, debating conflicting views where challenges are to be expected. They seem to expect love and acceptance, which is an odd expectation to have here.
I am more loving and accepting now that I have been set free from my beliefs though, no matter what they think.

POI is more Christ-like than you are and I am willing to exchange with him anytime but you I need to ignore as your posts are fairly caustic and insulting at times. So you are greatly mistaken in the kind of person you have become.

Ah cute! You think you can hurt my feelings.
This is personal and against the rules of debate. You need to debate ideas, not the poster, but when the debate is lost, slander become the tool of the loser. - Socrates.

I notice you had the pentecostal experience but no walking with God.

What you notice is incorrect, but you are unable to accept this because of the religious beliefs you are trying to maintain. The truth is, being set free from my beliefs was the hardest thing I have ever gone through. The tears were real and desire to remain was real. You are forced to pretend that it wasn't, but that is on you and just a defense mechanism.

I notice no repentance and I am not at all surprised that you had all these experiences and were never taught to talk with Him.

It is painfully obvious that there is no god or external agency whatsoever helping you to reform your replies. Speculation and empty claims are the best you have.

In over 40 years I never heard anyone say that a person must "feel sick" and "take the medicine" Jesus offers. Never once. You are making that up and I wish you would not.

Argument from ignorance. It's a valid evangelizing technique. Up there with 'tickets to heaven' that you likely haven't hear about before either. You have now been educated.

You are first person I ever heard refusing to acknowledge that sin is wrong choices

You know that sin is not wrong choices though. This was evidenced by your refusal to answer the box of money question that was asked of you. Answering that question would have shown just how silly your reasoning was, so you ignored it.

and you are the first to insist that a person needs to recognize that they are "sick" to receive Jesus.

I'm the first, yet I learned it from others. My word your illogic knows no bounds! You'll say anything to maintain your beliefs wont you?

I showed you twice the scripture you use says Jesus said some are well and some are sick. This you ignored.

That is because I don't believe that a Jesus person or persons was relaying such a thing. This is a church doctrine, disguised as original sin and the sacrifice of Jesus. You claim you have never heard about it. I believe you.

And repenting of your wrong choices and receiving forgiveness is NOT taking medicine, although I do not blame you entirely for this false picture. Your description is very close to some preaching.

Of course it is! I was a believer for over 2 decades after all.

You failed to hurt my feelings by the way. I don't even think about you outside of forming debate replies.

[Clownboat]

It's pretty interesting that the snake appears in a number of religions. And there is a religion that calls their book "holy" and worships it to some degree. You can insult their deity all you want but do not insult their book. Rip out a page in public and they feel justified in killing you. Scary!

Since you seem to desire to sling mud...
Not nearly as scary as the Crusades.

The primary objectives of the Crusades were to stop the expansion of Muslim states, to reclaim for Christianity the Holy Land in the Middle East, and to recapture territories that had formerly been Christian. Approximately 1.7 million people died as a result. Spreading a religion via the sword is way more scary if you ask me. Don't you agree?

I can't wait to see how you take this observation personally!

[otseng]

Actually I do not find you at all to be Christ-like, loving or accepting. I find your posts to be personally insulting and jeering. POI is more Christ-like than you are and I am willing to exchange with him anytime but you I need to ignore as your posts are fairly caustic and insulting at times. So you are greatly mistaken in the kind of person you have become.

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[TRANSPONDER]

Well, that seems to be that The Fall is actually the Fail.

It makes no sense other than as a deliberate stitch -up to wish knowledge on man but wish the blame for it also, and punish Mans' species ever after and even wipe out all the species (1) plus the rest of creation (collateral damage ) and I believe some have given up and excused it as a metaphor of Mans' condition. Of course but then the idea of original sin Fails. And there is no need for Jesus to atone for anything. The crucifixion has no point...other than (as the gospels say anyway..one of the few things we can credit as a unified view...a seditious (Royalist messianic) claim that merits the approves punishment for rebellion (2).

We know that the Blasphemy charge makes no sense (other than to a Christian) and is never used. Also the Temple fracas is never even mentioned as a possible charge by anyone. I would say that is deliberately avoided as it was the actual 'crime' Jesus was tried for and executed for in fact. Apart from peddling mt pet theory, it explains why there was a crucifixion at all as it could not be a sacrifice for Sin, so the Fall fails and there is no Sin to buy off, just the way God (name your own) or Nature made us.

(1) but in an inbreeding group...which probably explains a Lot... "They got me drunk, your honour".

(2) like the blasphemy charge, 'King of the Jews' is not a religious claim but political in fact. Thus the nativity of Matthew must be evidence that he was a Christian, and didn't think like a Jew nor understand scripture or Jewish custom. Nor (I reckon) could he read Hebrew nor understand the OT. Thus he has Herod, on hearing 'King of the Jews' does not cull his nobles for a recent birth, but rushes to scripture. It is Matthew in search of Prophecy again.

Still over 80 guests. You God -believers must be doing something right

[William]

[Replying to William in post #155]

To continue...

Lets now focus our attention on the tree of life and where it fits within the JA framework.


The Tree of Life is a central symbol in various spiritual and mythological traditions, including the story of the Garden of Eden. Within the Jungian archetype framework, the Tree of Life can be interpreted as representing the journey of individuation, which is the process of integrating the disparate aspects of the psyche into a unified whole.

In Jungian psychology, individuation is the central aim of human development, wherein the individual strives to become consciously aware of and integrate the unconscious aspects of their psyche. The Tree of Life symbolizes this process of growth, transformation, and enlightenment.
In the context of the Garden of Eden story, the Tree of Life is often portrayed alongside the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. While the Tree of Knowledge represents the acquisition of consciousness and the duality of human existence, the Tree of Life symbolizes the potential for spiritual enlightenment and eternal existence.

Within the Jungian archetype framework, the Tree of Life can be seen as a representation of the Self, which is the archetype of wholeness and integration. As individuals progress on their journey of individuation, they strive to reach the symbolic "fruit" of the Tree of Life, which represents self-realization and transcendence of the ego.

Moreover, the Tree of Life serves as a connection between the earthly realm and the divine or spiritual realm. It symbolizes the interconnectedness of all existence and the inherent unity underlying apparent diversity.

TCM's role in creating the Tree of Life can be interpreted as the manifestation of the universal impulse towards individuation and spiritual evolution. By placing the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden, TCM illustrates its central role in guiding and nurturing the human psyche towards greater awareness and integration.

Overall, within the Jungian archetype framework, the Tree of Life represents the ultimate goal of individuation and spiritual enlightenment, as well as the inherent unity and interconnectedness of all existence. Its presence in the Garden of Eden story underscores the significance of the journey towards self-realization and the integral role of TCM in facilitating this process.


Now let us focus on the role of the Tree of knowledge (of good and evil).

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil holds a pivotal role in the story of the Garden of Eden and carries profound symbolic significance within the Jungian archetype framework.

In Jungian psychology, the concept of knowledge often represents consciousness and awareness. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil can be interpreted as symbolizing the awakening of human consciousness and the dawning awareness of moral discernment and ethical choices.

When Adam and Eve partake of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, it signifies their transition from a state of innocence and unconsciousness to one of awareness and moral responsibility. They gain the capacity to distinguish between good and evil, marking the beginning of human moral development and the journey towards self-awareness.

Within the Jungian archetype framework, the Tree of Knowledge represents the encounter with the shadow, which is the aspect of the unconscious containing repressed desires, instincts, and aspects of the self that are deemed unacceptable or undesirable. By eating from the Tree of Knowledge, Adam and Eve confront their own shadow selves, leading to a profound shift in their consciousness and self-perception.

TCM's role in creating the Tree of Knowledge can be interpreted as the catalyst for human evolution and the development of consciousness. By providing Adam and Eve with the opportunity to gain knowledge and experience, TCM initiates the process of individuation and the quest for self-realization.

Moreover, the Tree of Knowledge serves as a reminder of the inherent duality within human nature. The knowledge acquired from the tree brings both blessings and curses, highlighting the complex interplay between light and darkness, good and evil, within the human psyche.

In essence, within the Jungian Archetype framework, the Tree of Knowledge symbolizes the journey of self-discovery, moral awakening, and the confrontation with the shadow aspects of the psyche. Its presence in the Garden of Eden narrative underscores the fundamental role of consciousness and ethical discernment in the human experience, as well as the pivotal role of TCM in guiding human evolution and spiritual growth.

Now let us focus on trying to gain understanding as to why TCM (re its role within the human psyche) commanded the fruit should not be eaten. How is the eating of this fruit conveyed through the JA?

Within the JA framework, the commandment by TCM (the Creator Mind) not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil can be interpreted in several ways that reflect aspects of the human psyche and the journey of individuation.

1. Symbolism of Limitation: The commandment not to eat from the tree can be seen as representing a boundary or limitation imposed by TCM. In Jungian psychology, limitations or restrictions often serve as catalysts for growth and transformation. By prohibiting Adam and Eve from partaking of the fruit, TCM sets the stage for their eventual confrontation with the shadow and the journey towards self-awareness and individuation.

2. Fear of Disruption: TCM's commandment may also reflect a fear of disrupting the existing harmony and balance within the psyche. Eating from the Tree of Knowledge represents a significant shift in consciousness and awareness, which could potentially destabilize the fragile equilibrium of the human psyche. TCM's prohibition can thus be seen as a protective measure aimed at preserving the integrity of the psyche and preventing premature exposure to the complexities of the unconscious.

3. Symbolism of Temptation and Temptation Resistance: The commandment not to eat from the tree can also be viewed as a test of Adam and Eve's obedience and moral character. In Jungian psychology, the theme of temptation and resistance is often associated with the archetype of the hero's journey. By resisting the temptation to eat from the tree, Adam and Eve demonstrate their capacity for self-control and ethical discernment, thereby reaffirming their readiness for the journey of individuation.

4. Representation of Divine Authority: TCM's commandment may also reflect its role as the ultimate authority within the psyche. In Jungian psychology, the Self archetype embodies a sense of wholeness, integration, and divine wisdom. By issuing the commandment not to eat from the tree, TCM asserts its authority over the ego and the unconscious, guiding and shaping the individual's journey towards self-realization and spiritual enlightenment.

In summary, within the Jungian archetype framework, the commandment not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil can be interpreted as a symbolic expression of various aspects of the human psyche, including the themes of limitation, fear, temptation, and divine authority. The act of eating from the tree represents a pivotal moment in the individuation process, marking the transition from innocence to consciousness and initiating the journey towards self-awareness and moral development.