The Fall!

[POI]

Otseng stated "Yes, I believe the fall is a thing. As for why, it is out of scope for the current discussion, but can be addressed later."

Your wish has been granted.

For debate: Outside the claim being made from an ancient human writing, why is the assertion of 'the fall' a real thing?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #114]

So if I am dumb and my wife is dumb from another tribe. Is that in breeding when our kids are dumb?

No they are inheriting my sins.

Are you saying that dumbness is a "sin"?

No. Dumbness is a punishment for sin. Sin which it is assumed is particularly worse than any other person't sin. Which can't be disproved but doesn't sound like the way the world of medicine and genetics works.
[Replying to William in post #130]

Sorry mate. I find this exceeding tedious and irrelevant.

Eden is metaphorical is all we need. I for one can do without your Jungian dissertation.

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #114]

So if I am dumb and my wife is dumb from another tribe. Is that in breeding when our kids are dumb?

No they are inheriting my sins.

Are you saying that dumbness is a "sin"?

No. Dumbness is a punishment for sin. Sin which it is assumed is particularly worse than any other person't sin. Which can't be disproved but doesn't sound like the way the world of medicine and genetics works.

I laughed out loud. Is that bad? I thought it rather funny in a positive way assuming you meant it as a joke. Am I right? Sounded amusing to me.

[Replying to William in post #130]

Sorry mate. I find this exceeding tedious and irrelevant.

Eden is metaphorical is all we need. I for one can do without your Jungian dissertation.

Well, I chuckled at this one as well. Are we joining the same side more often? I mean William is a really good wordsmith and gets an A in creative writing from me for sure, but it was just too much creativity and too long with no real match in real life. Methaphors are supposed to represent something in real life. The lost sheep or prodigal son and the shepherd/father were metaphors for how God feels about those who go astray. Maybe that is not real life to you but it is to me and other believers. It has a teaching quality. I just do not see that in the creation series he wrote. Entertaining? Yes. Application in real life? Not that I could see.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #114]

So if I am dumb and my wife is dumb from another tribe. Is that in breeding when our kids are dumb?

No they are inheriting my sins.

Are you saying that dumbness is a "sin"?

No. Dumbness is a punishment for sin. Sin which it is assumed is particularly worse than any other person't sin. Which can't be disproved but doesn't sound like the way the world of medicine and genetics works.

I laughed out loud. Is that bad? I thought it rather funny in a positive way assuming you meant it as a joke. Am I right? Sounded amusing to me.

[Replying to William in post #130]

Sorry mate. I find this exceeding tedious and irrelevant.

Eden is metaphorical is all we need. I for one can do without your Jungian dissertation.

Well, I chuckled at this one as well. Are we joining the same side more often? I mean William is a really good wordsmith and gets an A in creative writing from me for sure, but it was just too much creativity and too long with no real match in real life. Methaphors are supposed to represent something in real life. The lost sheep or prodigal son and the shepherd/father were metaphors for how God feels about those who go astray. Maybe that is not real life to you but it is to me and other believers. It has a teaching quality. I just do not see that in the creation series he wrote. Entertaining? Yes. Application in real life? Not that I could see.

I often find that Theists and I agree on as much as we disagree. William of course has an interesting take though I find it speculative and irrelevant to a discussion on whether the Bible is true or not. Either metaphor ('metaphorically true' means 'not true at all') If it not true then the best that metaphor of Jungian archetypes is about how the human brain works, not some Cosmic supernatural Reality, That is not a discussion that is relevant to religion or Holy Books and whether they are true or not.

They are taken as substantially factually true, or there is no point in discussion.

Human thought such as morality and ethics is what humans do; it is irrelevant to the religion debate.

[Clownboat]

You will notice that Jesus says there are sick and there are healthy. Let means this verse cannot be used to support "everyone is sick."

My point is that you must first believe you are sick before you will take the medicine. My point stands and if the Bible is to be believed here, Jesus agrees with me.
Original sin is just the sickness this religion uses in order to convince people to take the medicine.

So do you agree that honor killings of female members of the house who "disgrace" the family ought to be killed because that society has deemed this acceptable in the face of unacceptable behaviour by said female?

I do not believe such a thing. If I was a member of such a society, I may believe such a thing though. Are you beginning to see how this works?

I gather you think that each society can deem slavery acceptable, right?

I know that societies have deemed slavery as acceptable and not acceptable throughout history. You should know this as well!

Or if a society deems that having personal property is unacceptable as long as there are poor people, this is morally right to take from the rich?

Societies determine what is right and wrong. I'm not sure why you struggle with this. Societies have done this via making laws and inventing religions. If a society has determined that 'X' is wrong, then 'X' is wrong whether there is a law behind it or a god concepts punishment after death. What humans would claim about some god concept outside of this society would be irrelevant. What a Muslim may consider to be a sin wouldn't be meaningful to you, surely you acknowledge this?

When you make society (people) the measure of moral right and wrong behaviour, all evil is allowed because the term "evil," "wrong," or "sin" have no meaning. Might makes right.

Sin already has no meaning. Sin is just a religious concept. What you believe to be a sin is something you believe for religious reasons.
As far as 'evil' or 'wrong' goes, you are demonstrably wrong. If a society deems that 'X' is evil or wrong, then 'X' is evil or wrong and NOT allowed. Therefore your claim that all evil would be allowed is wrong. Said society will then create laws and sometimes even decry that a god concept agrees with them. All this we learn from history.

Again, you are content with each different society treating its weaker members as they like and all their laws are correct, right?

I said no such thing! I have claimed that societies determine what is right and wrong. I have in fact not commented on my contentment or lack there of about this.

By the way, sin or wrong choices usually have an impact on OTHER PEOPLE.

Wrong choices sure, but sin is just a religious concept and has no meaning outside of those in the club that accept the provided meaning from their religious leaders. You keep confusing 'sin' with real things like doing something society has deemed to be wrong.

Speeding is wrong and we have laws to prevent it.
Homosexuality use to be wrong here, and even considered a sin. Society has changed it's tune and homosexuality is only a sin to those in a religious club that share the notion that it is a sin. Homesexuality is now accepted by society. Religious sin concepts matter not unless said society is being ruled by a religion.

You just said sin has had no impact upon you.

Sin yes, wrong choices, which are not sin is what you referred to though. I assume this was a mistake on your part as lying is likely a sin.
Your words were: "Wrong choices are still made and have an impact."

Sin is merely morally wrong choices

I reject this premise due to sin being nothing more than a religious concept that varies from one religion to another. Your definition didn't even allude to a god concept and sins are transgressions against divine laws.

You cannot redefine "sin" for your own pleasure. It means "wrong choices morally." You need to deal with this.

I do not redefine sin. I acknowledge it for what it is. Sin is nothing more than a religious concept that varies from one religion to another. You cannot refute this.
Further proof. Is drinking alcohol a sin? Depends on the religion, therefore my words are true.

Ah, the Adam and Eve story was the information that showed my there is no inborn sin nature. It is the account that proves that this theology is false. Adam and Eve had no sin nature and yet sinned. Those who hold this theology can never answer why.

Original sin is the Christian doctrine which says that because of the sin of Adam and Eve, original innocence is lost and all subsequent human beings are born into a state of sinfulness. Do you actually reject that humans are born into a state of sinfulness?
As to the why, that answer is simple. They were tricked by the serpent. You have read the story, right?

Only evidence that to join a church, you need to believe in that doctrine or at least tolerant the whole group excusing their sin (wrong choices) by something that is not their fault. So I do not see how your point is proven.

Stop calling wrong choices a sin. I find this very dishonest.
If someone offers me money in one of two boxes, and I make the wrong choice of box, that is not a sin and you know it.

However, my point is proven that Christian do accept original sin. So much so that you had to hide your lack of belief in such a thing from your fellow believers.

No one suffers from sin as an illness as it is not a sickness and the Bible does not say it is.

Correct. Sin is not an illness. It is fully, 100% just a religious concept that varies from religion to religion. Far too many believers pretend that this sin concept they are saddled with is a concept they can place on others to be saddled with.

You cannot saddle me with being forced to accept that the earth is flat (hypothetically). Now see your notion of sin.

But you cannot say that anyone is freed from suffering from doing wrong (sin) by being an atheist.

And I haven't. Now why do you think that being an atheist would stop suffering? Can you explain why you typed these words? (Please don't if they are as irrelevant as they seem to be).

The understanding the Bible teaches does not include Sin nature, which Augustine introduced and was not heard of before. So, yes, there is a lot of wrong theology out there, but that does not affect the teaching of the Bible and what Jesus taught contained therein. This distinction needs to be made.

I really don't care about your religious beliefs. They are meaningless to me.
Here, we are talking about the Christian concept of original sin and how it is used as a tool to convince many that they suffer from the sin of Adam and Eve (this is the metaphorical sickness) and need the blood of Christ to cure them (this is the metaphorical medicine).

Now you do have a valid point to present the weakness to christians who do adhere to this theology as their christianity. But that is not my christianity so when you call it "christianity" I have the right to say, "not in my life."

You should look into Seventh-day Adventism. There is a flavor of Christianity for just about anyone!

[Clownboat]

[Replying to William in post #126]

Just so you know, God started communicating with me and I responded as a child. Maybe I was around 10 years old. We attended the Lutheran church, no sect.

This was many decades before I heard the theology that God no longer speaks personally and directly to people. I didn’t know “He had lapsed into silence”
but simply responded as well as addressed Him. So I started walking with God as a child. Your theory does not match real life.

I was a born again, tongue talking, drunk in the Holy Ghost, street evangelist and missionary for 2 decades (not a missionary the entire time to be clear). If I can be set free from my walk with this god concept, there is hope for you.
Ironically, I am now more Christ-like (loving and accepting) then ever after having lost my religious beliefs. I'm no longer saddled with having to believe that Muslims or homosexuals for example belong to burn in a hell for all of eternity. It was very liberating being set free form all this and I honestly believe I am now a better human for it.

That a Christian may look down on me for being ok with Muslims and their beliefs or homosexuals and their desires means nothing to me anymore. A person must first feel sick (inherited sin from Adam and Eve), take the medicine (Jesus's sacrifice on the cross) and belong to the club (others that share the belief) in order to look down on such things.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #131]

I for one can do without your Jungian dissertation.

Yes - you mentioned that already.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #130]

Continuing with this train of thought, we have a better understanding of the question “why was the universe created?” and the necessity of it becoming “other” for the mind which it was created within.

We have (to keep things local) the outside/exterior Galaxy (Milky Way) and the interior (Earth Garden) apparently quite alone/unique/something of an enigma/anomaly…and into this Garden are grown “Things” which The Creator Mind has “placed”.
The Creator Mind (TCM) deems it necessary to create an anomaly within a vast landscape exterior to that garden…

This exploration delves into fascinating philosophical and metaphysical questions regarding the nature of existence, consciousness, and the relationship between the individual mind and the external universe. Let's continue examining this train of thought within the context of the Garden of Eden story and the concept of the Creator Mind:

1. The Creator Mind (TCM) and the Creation of the Universe:
• TCM represents the primordial consciousness or creative force that gives rise to the universe, including both the external galaxy (Milky Way) and the interior Garden of Eden. It embodies the divine intelligence and intentionality behind the act of creation.
• The creation of the universe, with its vast expanse of stars, galaxies, and celestial bodies, represents the external reality within which the Garden of Eden exists as a microcosm. This external universe serves as the backdrop against which the Garden is situated, highlighting its uniqueness and significance.
• The necessity of creating an anomaly or unique environment within the vastness of the external universe suggests a purposeful act on the part of TCM. This anomaly, represented by the Garden of Eden, serves as a focal point for the unfolding of consciousness, self-awareness, and moral development within the created cosmos.

2. The Interior Garden as a Microcosm:
• The Garden of Eden symbolizes a microcosm within the broader universe, representing a sacred and protected space where consciousness and life can flourish under the guidance of TCM.
• Within the Garden, TCM cultivates and nurtures the growth of sentient beings, including Adam and Eve, who serve as vessels for the exploration of consciousness, self-awareness, and moral agency.
• The presence of the Garden within the vastness of the external universe underscores its significance as a locus of divine interaction and human evolution, highlighting the interconnectedness of all aspects of creation within the cosmic tapestry.

3. The Purpose of Creation and the Search for Meaning:
• The act of creation, including the formation of the universe and the establishment of the Garden of Eden, raises profound questions about the purpose and meaning of existence within the cosmic order.
• TCM's decision to create both the external universe and the interior Garden suggests a desire for exploration, discovery, and evolution within the fabric of reality. It reflects the inherent impulse towards growth, self-realization, and transcendence inherent in the nature of consciousness itself.
• The presence of Adam and Eve within the Garden, along with the introduction of moral choice and consequence, underscores the significance of human free will and individual agency in the pursuit of meaning and fulfillment within the created cosmos.

In summary, this exploration sheds light on the intricate relationship between the Creator Mind, the universe, and the interior Garden of Eden (Earth) within the framework of the biblical narrative. It invites contemplation on the purpose and significance of creation, the nature of consciousness, and the quest for meaning within the vast expanse of existence.


In broadening the framework of JA to include explaining the TMC's motivations (per psychology) this can help us understand ourselves (as humans) and the "archetypes" we are in relationship to the goings-on (re our reality experience).

Expanding the Jungian archetype framework to include the motivations of the Creator Mind (TCM) can provide valuable insights into human psychology and our relationship to the experiences within our reality. Let's explore how understanding TCM's motivations can help us understand ourselves as humans and the archetypes we embody in relation to our reality experience:

1. Understanding TCM's Motivations:
• TCM's motivations in creating the universe, including the external galaxy and the interior Garden of Eden, can be viewed through the lens of psychological archetypes such as the Creator, the Mentor, or the Wise Old Man.
• TCM's decision to create may stem from a desire for exploration, self-expression, or the actualization of potential, reflecting universal human drives and aspirations.
• By understanding TCM's motivations, we gain insight into the foundational principles that shape our reality and our experiences within it.

2. Understanding Ourselves in Relation to TCM's Creations:
• As beings within TCM's created universe, we are inherently connected to the motivations and intentions underlying its creation.
• Our experiences within the external universe and the interior Garden of Eden are influenced by TCM's design, which may reflect themes of growth, learning, and self-discovery.
• By recognizing our interconnectedness with TCM's creations, we gain a deeper understanding of our place within the cosmic order and our role in shaping our reality experience.

3. Exploring Archetypes in Relation to Our Reality Experience:
• Within the framework of TCM's creation, we can explore the archetypal roles and dynamics that manifest in our reality experience.
• We may embody archetypes such as the Hero, the Seeker, the Sage, or the Lover as we navigate our journey through life within TCM's created universe.
• By recognizing and understanding these archetypes, we gain insight into the patterns and themes that shape our experiences and interactions within our reality.

In summary, expanding the Jungian archetype framework to include TCM's motivations can provide a holistic understanding of ourselves as humans and our relationship to the experiences within our reality. By exploring the archetypal dynamics at play in TCM's creation, we gain valuable insights into the motivations underlying our existence and the roles we embody in our journey of self-discovery and growth.

[William]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #134]

Correct. Sin is not an illness. It is fully, 100% just a religious concept that varies from religion to religion. Far too many believers pretend that this sin concept they are saddled with is a concept they can place on others to be saddled with.

I think the concept of sin can cause illness. Specifically mental illness.
This idea of an inherited wrongness perhaps comes from the observation that "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" and sons are observed to grow up to be "just like their dads" so if their dads are nasty, so too are the sons (that is an observable pattern) based upon influential authoritative adult figures upon the mind of their children.

This places an interesting observation on the idea of original sin and the garden story (when taken literally) and gets one wondering if Adam was "just like his dad" and to resolve the responsibility of outcomes, Adam became the focus where wrong originates from and the cry that "no - Adam was not just like his dad because his dad can DO no wrong!"

No wonder history unfolded as it did, with such religious monstrosity at the helm in the earlier days of social development. Fortunately this mental illness is curable. A good start on the path of recovery, is not to take such stories literally. By all means, examine the symbology and underlying morality (the moral of the story) but to take such literally is a sure sign one is mentally unstable.

[William]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #128]

I’m not indoctrinated at all.

Most folk believe that re their particular beliefs to do with following after doctrines. in-doctrine-ate.

Consumed. Eaten up. Drink it in.

Indoctrination requires turning off the brain and/or heart.

In some cases perhaps, but in cases which help us from ignoring a red light, no.

I’ve done neither.

Come now Mae...be honest. You have freely and often shared the opinion/interpretation of your particular doctrinal beliefs...

You have a difficulty believing not everything is subjective...and not everyone is indoctrinated.

Strawman.

That smacks of …….indoctrination.

Agreed. But that is a strawman argument, not an argument I personally made.

And because I’m not, I see through your position to the conclusion and refuse to be indoctrinated by it.

I don't blame you! I would refuse to be indoctrinated by such as well.

Through all the stabs you want.

Huh?

I would have laughed aloud if I were not in an extremely quiet train.

Talking about extremely quiet trains, I have been making this one over the past 3 weeks - out of cardboard. Do you like it?

The idea that a woman can walk with God as He demands and many have done, you exclude. For you, it’s impossible.

Do you mean, from what I have shared already in the Jungian Archetypes? Do worry about that, I am only part way through the analysis of the whole garden story. I haven't got up to the part of focusing on Eve as yet (although I still have mentioned her often enough already, so am not sure where you get this idea about my supposed attitude re Women from).
Or perhaps it is something else you thought I said/inferred?
Alas, without the accompanying evidence, I can only treat your words as more strawmanning (or straw-womanning if you prefer).

What you don’t do is test to see if it’s true.

What I do do, is allow them the right to believe they walk with their idea of God and acknowledge that this will be seen (and thus able to be tested) through their expression.
What I don't do is think God would encourage them to argue with straw, so when they do, I tend to take notice and see it as a sign that whatever their God is to them, it is not altogether convincing to me.

When a poster tells me that they know God, I test them to see this is so, like the Bereans. But I’m not afraid it might be true. If anything, I hope it is true.

What you are saying here (apparently) is that you hope to find like-minded folk who believe the same types of things as you believe about God.
How is that going for you?
Do you enjoy having to keep your silence about what you really think, when in the company of the brethren you associate with (per going to church)?

The Father and The Son

Arriving at destination…to be addressed later…

I see you arrived and left an uncivil reply. Should I take that as a sign your idea of God is displeased?
Also to note, the link was to a thread in the general chat area (non debating) and convers quite a variety of subjects, which I will list below for your (and the other readers) convenience.
Perhaps revisit and think about tweaking your response accordingly.

Index of Topics Page One.

• Universe as Being, Cosmic Mysteries, and the Nature of the Mind

• Cosmic Reflections and Human Harmony

• Conscious Connection and authenticity.

• Eternal Matter Dynamics Theory

• Exploring the Nature of Reality and Divine Relationships

• Philosophical Discourse on Spirituality, Mindfulness, and Purpose

• Exploring Metaphysical Dialogues: From Gods to Conformal Cyclic Cosmology

• Philosophical Reflections on Life, Belief, and Ancestral Wisdom

Index of Page 2.
Navigating Self-Awareness, Paths, and the Relationship with The Father Beyond the Pages
Morality, Consciousness, and Trauma in the Cosmos.
Points re Natural Philosophy/Natural Theism
Philosophical Reflections and Emotional Harmony.
Origins of the Universe and Metaphysical Realms through Philosophy and Conceptual Conversations
A Dialogue on Gods, Creation, and Human Experience.
Dialogues Between MIND and Mind on Existence, Illusion, and the Magic Within
Exploring the Earth Mind as an Extension of Universal Consciousness
Exploring the Relationship Between the Creator and Offspring Minds

Index of Page 3.
Bridging the Concept of a Caused Universe Creator.
Moses, the Bible God, and Spiritual Reflections between Father and Son
Interplay of Science, Spirituality, and Personal Growth
Poetry, Philosophy, and the Journey Within
Space, Matter, and Truth within the Infinite Field of Particle X
The Nature of God, Consciousness, and the Universe in the Kalam Perspective
A Philosophical Dialogue on Reality and Perception
Interpretation, and reflection of Nature of the Divine Father Figure
The "Unforgivable Sin" - Themes of Self-Realization, Connection, and Acceptance








Oh no. Did you scroll past those links without even reading the headings? How is that supposed to help you understand anything about my idea of God? Take a closer look, so as to avoid knee-jerk replies which otherwise make it obvious you prefer the fallacy of straw.

*politely tips hat*

[Wootah]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #114]

So if I am dumb and my wife is dumb from another tribe. Is that in breeding when our kids are dumb?

No they are inheriting my sins.

Are you saying that dumbness is a "sin"?

For sure. No one without any defect was allowed into the temple before. All defects are not good, deafness, blindness, intellectual difficulties. Sin is missing the mark. Actually sin isn't evil really. It is a reality of created things. They are not perfect like God is.