Why the Resurrection narratives cannot be eyewitness testimony with a challenge

[AchillesHeel]

Observation and thesis: The resurrection narratives are not reliable historical reports based on eyewitness testimony because they deviate too much from one another and grow in the telling in chronological order. This is not expected from reliable eyewitness testimony but is more expected from a legend developing over time. In order to show the resurrection narratives evolve like a legend developing, I'm going to compare the ways Jesus is said to have been "seen" or experienced after the Resurrection in each account according to the order in which most scholars place the compositions. Remember, these accounts are claimed to be from eyewitnesses who all experienced the same events so we would at least expect some sort of consistency.

Beginning with Paul (50s CE), who is our earliest and only verified firsthand account in the entire New Testament from someone who claims to have "seen" Jesus, he is also the only verified firsthand account we have from someone who claims to have personally met Peter and James - Gal. 1:18-19. Paul does not give any evidence of anything other than "visions" or "revelations" of Jesus. The Greek words ophthe (1 Cor 15:5-8), heoraka (1 Cor 9:1) and apokalupto (Gal. 1:16) do not necessarily imply the physical appearance of a person and so cannot be used as evidence for veridical experiences where an actual resurrected body was seen in physical reality. In Paul's account, it is unclear whether the "appearances" were believed to have happened before or after Jesus was believed to be in heaven, ultimately making the nature of these experiences ambiguous. Peter and James certainly would have told Paul about the empty tomb or the time they touched Jesus and watched him float to heaven. These "proofs" (Acts 1:3) would have certainly been helpful in convincing the doubting Corinthians in 1 Cor 15:12-20 and also help clarify the type of body the resurrected would have (v. 35). So these details are very conspicuous in their absence here.

Paul's order of appearances: Peter, the twelve, the 500, James, all the apostles, Paul. No location is mentioned.

Mark (70 CE) adds the discovery of the empty tomb but does not narrate any appearances so no help here really. He just claims Jesus will be "seen" in Galilee. This is very unexpected if the account really came from Peter's testimony. Why leave out the most important part especially, if Papias was correct, that "Mark made sure not to omit anything he heard"? Did Peter just forget to tell Mark this!? Anyways, there is no evidence a resurrection narrative existed at the time of composition of Mark's gospel circa 70 CE.

Mark's order of appearances: Not applicable. 

Matthew (80 CE) adds onto Mark's narrative, drops the remark that the "women told no one" from Mk
16:8 and instead, has Jesus suddenly appear to the women on their way to tell the disciples! It says they grabbed his feet which is not corroborated by any other account. Then, Jesus appeared to the disciples on a mountain in Galilee, another uncorroborated story, and says some even doubted it! (Mt. 28:17) So the earliest narrative doesn't even support the veracity of the event! Why would they doubt when they had already witnessed him the same night of the Resurrection according to Jn. 20:19? Well, under the development theory - John's story never took place! It's a later development, obviously, which perfectly explains both the lack of mention of any Jerusalem appearances in our earliest gospels plus the awkward "doubt" after already having seen Jesus alive!

Matthew's order of appearances: Two women (before reaching any disciples), then to the eleven disciples. The appearance to the women takes place after they leave the tomb in Jerusalem while the appearance to the disciples happens on a mountain in Galilee.

Luke (85 CE or later) - All of Luke's appearances happen in or around Jerusalem which somehow went unnoticed by the authors of Mark and Matthew. Jesus appears to two people on the Emmaus Road who don't recognize him at first. Jesus then suddenly vanishes from their sight. They return to tell the other disciples and a reference is made to the appearance to Peter (which may just come from 1 Cor 15:5 since it's not narrated). Jesus suddenly appears to the Eleven disciples (which would include Thomas). This time Jesus is "not a spirit" but a "flesh and bone" body that gets inspected, eats fish, then floats to heaven while all the disciples watch - conspicuously missing from all the earlier reports! Luke omits any appearance to the women and actually implies they *didn't* see Jesus. Acts 1:3 adds the otherwise unattested claim that Jesus appeared over a period of 40 days and says Jesus provided "many convincing proofs he was alive" which shows the stories were apologetically motivated. There is no evidence that Luke intended to convey Jesus ever appeared to anyone in Galilee. Moreover, Luke leaves no room for any Galilean appearance because he has Jesus tell the disciples to "stay in the city" of Jerusalem the same night of the resurrection - Lk. 24:49. It looks as though the Galilean appearance tradition has been erased by Luke which would be a deliberate alteration of the earlier tradition (since Luke was dependent upon Mark's gospel).

Luke's order of appearances: Two on the Emmaus Road, Peter, rest of the eleven disciples. All appearances happen in Jerusalem. Lk. 24:22-24 seems to exclude any appearance to the women. The women's report in Lk. 24:9-10 is missing any mention of seeing Jesus which contradicts Mt. 28:8-11 and Jn. 20:11-18.

John (90-110 CE) - the ascension has become tradition by the time John wrote (Jn. 3:13, 6:62, 20:17). Jesus appears to Mary outside the tomb who does not recognize him at first. Then Jesus, who can now teleport through locked doors, appears to the disciples minus Thomas. A week later we get the Doubting Thomas story where Jesus invites Thomas to poke his wounds. This story has the apologetic purpose that if you just "believe without seeing" you will be blessed. Lastly, there is another appearance by the Sea of Galilee in Jn. 21 in which Jesus appears to seven disciples. None of these stories are corroborated except for the initial appearance (which may draw upon Luke). It looks as though the final editor of John has tried to combine the disparate traditions of appearances.

John's order of appearances: Mary Magdalene (after telling Peter and the other disciple), the disciples minus Thomas (but Lk. 24:33 implies Thomas was there), the disciples again plus Thomas, then to seven disciples. In John 20 the appearances happen in Jerusalem and in John 21 they happen near the Sea of Galilee on a fishing trip.

Challenge: I submit this as a clear pattern of "development" that is better explained by the legendary growth hypothesis (LGH) as opposed to actual experienced events. Now the onus is on anyone who disagrees to explain why the story looks so "developed" while simultaneously maintaining its historical reliability. In order to achieve this, one must provide other reliable sources from people who experienced the same events but also exhibit the same amount of growth and disparity as the gospel resurrection narratives.

Until this challenge is met, the resurrection narratives should be regarded as legends because reliable eyewitness testimony does not have this degree of growth or inconsistency.

[TRANSPONDER]

I think so. Suppose, f.s.o.a, that it was agreed that only the empty tomb and the women finding it open and the body gone was all that was reliable (John has no angel explaining anything), then apart from an unverified claim that this was true, we have the women finding the tomb open and the body gone demands an explanation.

Suppose we grant the women ran off. Eventually they said something to someone or we would not know about it. What's most likely? They go back to Bethany (not the house in the city) and report to the disciples (which is agreed by three gospels) and they are told 'oh, the family took the body and have taken it back to Galilee'.

"but the tomb is left open!"

"Of course, it's Joseph's new tomb; he's going to want to use it, eventually."

Hmm; Does no one realize that an Empty Tomb that is OPEN, would have stood out and been investigated by SOMEONE sooner or later?

Marks gospel is supposed to have been written half a century later after the fact. Wouldnt, for instance, Joseph of Arimithea have heard meanwhile that a tomb he paid for and then gave it away as a present to a dead criminal has been vandalized/robbed?

So no! The Tombgirls didnt have to say something to someone or else we wouldnt have christianity today. Thats nonsense.

Besides; if they had, it would make Mark a liar.

But indeed; From the Book of Mormon to Third Reich UFA movies; In fictional narratives women were handles as Dumb and Dumber ever until recently. (Like men wanted to see and have their women.) So therein might lie some explanation.

Did dumb women simply visit a WRONG TOMB?

The conclusion that Jesus has risen from death and walked is not a given, unless to those who already believe it, and the concocted stories that follow are merely bias confirmation, to put clay on the bare wire of the resurrection - claim.

That is why the gospel of Mark half a century later is written for already believers and needs no Post Resurrection Appearances to narrate.
Or so Mark thought. Lectors of his script and later evangelists tried to outwrite him.

The second most probable explanation is that the body was removed alive, or it was hoped so. This is more difficult to explain why they wouldn't shut the tomb after them, but the 'induced' swoon theory is far more likely that the Bible apologists would care to admit, and Jesus returning from death actually is a far less likely hypothesis. Which is of course why contradictory stories had to be 'evolved' in order to tall the reader the conclusion they were supposed to jump to.

A body coming alive again is the least probable possibility, however improbable all other explanations might be.

So why is the proposition that a jew resurrected (which would demand from us to try and explain the mechanics of The Resurrection), more probable than the suspicion that sleep ridden girls before morning stumbling around in a graveyard finally visited the wrong striptease club, umm, tomb

The fact of a claim of an empty tomb is suspicious. With the resurrection of someone who could walk through locked doors, why was the tomb open? Matthew tries to solve this with a descending angel who opens it purely so the women can see it's empty.The others just relate the claim without worrying.

But if we were to suppose that 'the disciples 'stole him away' as Matthew claims was the story, the obvious answer is that Arimathea was involved in that, so the question of his being miffed about it doesn't arise. As to 'investigation', all he has to say is 'They took him back to Galilee to be reburied there - this is my own tomb'. End of the matter.

Mark's claim the 'tombirls' said nothing to anyone is contradicted by the other gospels who have them running to tell the disciples. Why is there a problem with Bible apologists being able to recognise contradiction when it is right in front of them? The sheer amount of contradiction and evolution of the story shows that Mark was not lying, but copying what he had. he didn't know that the others would change the story.

I don't think the 'wrong tomb' idea is likely. If it was, the other stories where the angel makes it clear it's the right none are shown false anyway. I'd leave that idea alone. It wasn't so much to outwrite the gospels they had to work with, but the story needed more. They invented it; that is why they contradict.

The idea that Mark didn't need to write what everyone knew hardly works. If so, there is no need for the Gospel story anyway. The idea is to provide support for the faithclaim, and the resurrection, though supposedly predicted, was felt to need more than just an empty tomb. The evidence is clear, contradictory versions were added later, in isolation.

The Mechanics, as you say, of the whole story would point to a plan to save Jesus from dying. Arimathea is the planner and Pilate (who is sympathetic to Jesus in the stories) is willing to help. The point pops up that Jesus dies earlier than expected. An unidentified person gives Jesus a drink and he conks out pretty much right away. He is taken down and slipped into the tomb and Arimathea gets him out as soon as the coast is clear.

Even if there was a tomb guard, they wouldn't arrive until later. But I reckon Matthew just invented that to scupper the story he says was going around that the disciples took the body.

There are problems with this and I don't think it is true, though I once almost did, but it is still a better option than the dead coming back to life. The spear -thrust is invented. The synoptics know nothing about it and Luke pretty much denies it. But it does show that a crucifixion cut short was part of the story. John just used a passage in Psalms to provide screenplay for leg - breaking and a spear in the side to check Jesus was dead.

It's pretty inventive, but so is the Lazarus screenplay.

[AchillesHeel]

Sorry, I don't see any growth or inconsistency.

Haha! Sure, if you just completely ignore the comparative analysis I gave, close your eyes and ears then I guess I can see how you could come to that conclusion. The fact that you selectively quoted the post while not bothering to address the actual gospel accounts when compared side by side, shows me you realize this is a huge problem.

[TRANSPONDER]

Sorry, I don't see any growth or inconsistency.

Haha! Sure, if you just completely ignore the comparative analysis I gave, close your eyes and ears then I guess I can see how you could come to that conclusion. The fact that you selectively quoted the post while not bothering to address the actual gospel accounts when compared side by side, shows me you realize this is a huge problem.

It is a misperception based on the false belief that the Bible is the default hypothesis and all that is needed is to deny everything and the Bible wins.

It is the basic logical flaw that makes pretty much all Bible apologetics invalid, logically.

There fact of an equally valid rebuttal theory means that there is no good reason to believe the faithclaim, even before we get to problems that undermine the Bible and evidence that supports the alternative.

They actually know how that works, because they try to refute 'science' - notably evolution, but pointing up problems. They know that Problems undermine a hypothesis. They cannot answer Problems (though they usually have a bash - like the 'Marys split up' theory. But when that fails, the last resort is to deny everything.

But is was never about what people believed or did not believe, but about the 'debate'. The audience decides, and it is the best case that wins, not the one that can deny everything more stubbornly.

One can only hope that the results of the discussion get out into the public domain, where Religious propaganda has had it pretty much their own way until forty years ago.

[Mae von H]

Challenge: I submit this as a clear pattern of "development" that is better explained by the legendary growth hypothesis (LGH) as opposed to actual experienced events. Now the onus is on anyone who disagrees to explain why the story looks so "developed" while simultaneously maintaining its historical reliability. In order to achieve this, one must provide other reliable sources from people who experienced the same events but also exhibit the same amount of growth and disparity as the gospel resurrection narratives.

I don't think the story looks "developed". If it would be developed, it would be written as atheist would see it correct. When people try to make up story, they avoid all things that makes the story look too difficult.

Also, because all the Gospels can be fit together nicely, without contradictions, I don't think your theory is correct. Here is how it is done:

Mark. 16:1 And the sabbath passing, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome, bought spices, so that coming they might anoint Him.
Note! There was two Shabbat days. The Shabbat day of feast of unleavened bread and weekly Shabbat. Apparently after first Shabbat, Friday, spices were prepared and after second Shabbat they were brought to the tomb.
Mark. 16:2 And very early on the first of the week, the sun having risen, they came upon the tomb.
Matt.28:1 But after the sabbaths, at the dawning of the first of the sabbaths, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the grave.
(Mark. 16:3 And they said to themselves, Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?)
(Luke 24:1 But on the first of the sabbaths, while still very early, they came on the tomb, carrying spices which they prepared; and some were with them.)
Matt.28:2 And, behold! A great earthquake occurred! For descending from Heaven and coming near, an angel of the Lord rolled away the stone from the door and was sitting on it.
Matt.28:3 And his face was as lightning and his clothing white as snow.
Matt.28:4 And those keeping guard were shaken from the fear of him, and they became as dead.
Note! Apparently, the earthquake and rolling of the stone was seen only by the guards, not the women that vent to the tomb.
Mark. 16:4 And looking up, they saw that the stone had been rolled back; for it was very large.
Luke 24:2 And they found the stone having been rolled away from the tomb.
John:20:1 But on the first of the week, Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, darkness yet being on it . And she saw the stone had been removed from the tomb.
John:20:2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said to them, They took away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they laid Him.
Luke 24:3 And going in, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
Note! Apparently, Mary left the tomb, while other women stayed at the tomb.
Mark. 16:5 And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right, having been clothed in a white robe. And they were much amazed.
Luke 24:4 And it happened, as they were perplexed about this, even behold, two men in shining clothing stood by them.
Luke 24:5 And they becoming terrified, and bowing their faces to the earth, they said to them, Why do you seek the living with the dead?
Matt.28:5 But answering, the angel said to the women, You must not fear, for I know that you seek Jesus who has been crucified.
Matt.28:6 He is not here, for He was raised, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord was lying.
(Mark. 16:6 But He said to them, Do not be amazed. You seek Jesus the Nazarene who has been crucified. He was raised. He is not here. See the place where they put Him?)
(Luke 24:6 He is not here, but was raised. Remember how He spoke to you, yet being in Galilee,)
Luke 24:7 saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and to be crucified, and the third day to rise again.
Luke 24:8 And they remembered His words.
7 And going quickly say to His disciples that He was raised from the dead. And behold! He goes before you into Galilee. You will see Him there. Behold! I told you.
Mark. 16:7 But go, say to the disciples and to Peter, He goes before you into Galilee. You will see Him there, even as He told you.
Matt.28:8 And going away from the tomb quickly, with fear and great joy, they ran to report to His disciples.
Mark. 16:8 And going out quickly, they fled from the tomb. And trembling and ecstasy took hold of them. And they told no one, not a thing, for they were afraid.
Note!, some think that this means they never told about the matter to anyone ever. If that would be the case, we would not have this story. That is why it is reasonable to think they only didn’t tell on their way about it.
John:20:3 Then Peter and the other disciple went out and came to the tomb.
John:20:4 And the two ran together, and the other disciple ran in front more quickly than Peter and came first to the tomb.
John:20:5 And stooping down, he saw the linens lying; however, he did not go in.
John:20:6 Then Simon Peter came following him, and went into the tomb and saw the linens lying.
John:20:7 And the grave cloth which was on His head was not lying with the linens, but was wrapped up in one place by itself.
John:20:8 Therefore, then the other disciple also entered, he having come first to the tomb, even he saw and believed.
John:20:9 For they did not yet know the Scripture, that it was necessary for Him to rise from the dead.
John:20:10 Then the disciples went away again to themselves.
John:20:11 But Mary stood outside at the tomb, weeping. Then as she wept, she stooped down into the tomb.
John:20:12 And she saw two angels in white, sitting one at the head, and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
John:20:13 And they said to her, Woman, why do you weep? She said to them, Because they took away my Lord, and I do not know where they put Him.
John:20:14 And saying these things, she turned backward and saw Jesus standing, and did not know that it was Jesus.
Note! Apparently, the other women had left some other route from the tomb, because didn’t see Peter and May on their way. Also, the disciples that came with Mary, left and Mary stayed alone there for a while.
(Mark. 16:9 And rising early on the first of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.)
John:20:15 Jesus said to her, Woman, why do you weep? Whom do you seek? Thinking that it was the gardener, she said to Him, Sir, if you carried Him away, tell me where you put Him, and I will take Him away.
John:20:16 Jesus said to her, Mary! Turning around, she said to Him, Rabboni! (that is to say, Teacher).
John:20:17 Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God, and your God.
John:20:18 Mary Magdalene came bringing word to the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He told her these things.
(Mark. 16:10 That one had gone and reported to those who had been with Him, who were mourning and weeping.)
Mark. 16:11 And those hearing that He lives, and was seen by her, they did not believe.
Mark. 16:12 And after these things, He was revealed in a different form to two of them walking and going into the country.
Matt.28:9 But as they were going to report to His disciples, behold, Jesus also met them, saying, Hail! And coming near, they seized His feet and worshiped Him.
Note! Worship = to kiss the hand, or to kneel and show homage to superior rank, for example high priest.
Matt.28:10 Then Jesus said to them, Do not fear. Go tell your brothers that they may go into Galilee, and there they will see Me.
Luke 24:9 And returning from the tomb, they reported all these things to the Eleven, and to all the rest.
Mark. 16:13 And going, those reported to the rest. Neither did they believe those.
Luke 24:10 And they were Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary mother of James, and the rest with them, who told these things to the apostles.
Luke 24:11 And their words seemed like foolishness to them, and they did not believe them.
Luke 24:12 But rising up, Peter ran to the tomb, and stooping down he saw the linen lying alone. And he went away wondering to himself at what had happened.
Matt.28:11 And they, having gone, behold, some of the guard coming into the city reported to the chief priests all things that occurred.
Matt.28:12 And being assembled with the elders, and taking counsel, they gave enough silver to the soldiers,
Matt.28:13 saying, Say that his disciples came and stole him by night, we being asleep.
Matt.28:14 And if this is heard by the governor, we will persuade him and will make you free from anxiety.
Matt.28:15 And taking the silver, they did as they were taught. And this report was spread by the Jews until today.
Note! Matt. 28:11-15 is a separate story line that seems to have happened as the same time with other events. Apparently guards told what they had witnessed in the city, while many disciples did other things.
Luke 24:13 And, behold, two of them were going on the same day to a village being sixty stadia distant from Jerusalem, which was named Emmaus.
Luke 24:14 And they talked to each other about all these things taking place.
Luke 24:15 And it happened, as they talked and reasoned, coming near, Jesus Himself traveled with them.
Luke 24:16 But their eyes were held so as not to recognize Him.
Luke 24:17 And He said to them, What words are these which you exchange with each other while walking, and are sad of face?
Luke 24:18 And answering, one of them whose name was Cleopas, said to Him, Are you only one who resides in Jerusalem and do not know the things happening in it in these days?
Luke 24:19 And He said to them, What things? And they said to Him, The things concerning Jesus the Nazarene, who was a man, a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people;
Luke 24:20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the judgment of death, and crucified Him .
Luke 24:21 But we were hoping that He is the One going to redeem Israel. But then with all these things, this third day comes today since these things happened.
Luke 24:22 And also some of our women astounded us, having been early at the tomb,
Luke 24:23 and not finding His body, they came saying to have seen a vision of angels also, who say Him to be alive.
Luke 24:24 And some of those with us went to the tomb, and found it so , even as the women also said; but they did not see Him.
Luke 24:25 And He said to them, O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe on all things which the prophets spoke!
Luke 24:26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things, and to enter into His glory?
Luke 24:27 And beginning from Moses, and from all the prophets, He explained to them the things about Himself in all the Scriptures.
Luke 24:28 And they drew near to the village where they were going, and He seemed to be going further.
Luke 24:29 And they constrained Him, saying, Stay with us, for it is toward evening, and the day has declined. And He went in to stay with them.
Luke 24:30 And it happened as He reclined with them, taking the loaf, He blessed, and breaking He gave to them.
Luke 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew Him. And He became invisible from them.
Luke 24:32 And they said to one another, Was not our heart burning in us as He spoke to us in the highway, and as He opened up to us the Scriptures?
Luke 24:33 And rising up in the same hour, they went back to Jerusalem, and they found the Eleven, and those with them, having been gathered,
Luke 24:34 saying, The Lord really was raised and appeared to Simon.
Luke 24:35 And they related the things in the highway, and how He was known to them in the breaking of the loaf.
Matt.28:16 But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, to the mount where Jesus appointed them.
Mark. 16:14 Afterward, as they reclined, He was revealed to the Eleven. And He reproached their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him, having been raised.
(Luke 24:36 And as they were telling these things, Jesus Himself stood in their midst, and said to them, Peace to you!)
(John:20:19 Then it being evening on that day, the first of the sabbaths, and the doors having been locked where the disciples were assembled, because of fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace to you.)
Luke 24:37 But being terrified and filled with fear, they thought they saw a spirit.
Matt.28:17 And seeing Him, they worshiped Him. But they doubted.
Luke 24:38 And He said to them, Why are you troubled? And why do reasonings come up in your hearts.
Luke 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that I am He? Feel Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see Me having.
Luke 24:40 And saying this, He showed them His hands and feet
(John:20:20 And saying this, He showed them His hands and side. Then seeing the Lord, the disciples rejoiced.)
Luke 24:41 But yet they not believing from the joy, and marveling, He said to them, Have you any food here?
Luke 24:42 And they handed a broiled part of a fish to Him, and from a honeycomb.
Luke 24:43 And taking these before them, He ate.
Luke 24:44 And He said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you yet being with you, that must be fulfilled all the things having been written in the Law of Moses, and the Prophets, and the Psalms, concerning Me.
Luke 24:45 Then He opened up their mind to understand the Scriptures,
Luke 24:46 and said to them, So it is written, and so the Christ must suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day. No OT passage
Luke 24:47 And repentance and remission of sins must be preached on His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Luke 24:48 And you are witnesses of th48 And you are witnesses of these things.
Matt.28:18 And coming up Jesus talked with them, saying, All authority in Heaven and on earth was given to Me.
Mark. 16:15 And He said to them, Going into all the world, preach the gospel to all the creation.
Matt.28:19 Going, then, disciple all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Matt.28:20 teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the completion of the age. Amen.
Mark. 16:16 The one believing and being baptized will be saved. And the one not believing will be condemned.
Mark. 16:17 And signs will follow to those believing these things: they will cast out demons in My name; they will speak new languages;
Mark. 16:18 they will take up snakes; and if they drink anything deadly, it will in no way hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will be well.
Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send forth the promise of My Father on you. But you sit in the city of Jerusalem until you are clothed with power from on high.
Luke 24:50 He led them out as far as to Bethany. And lifting up His hands, He blessed them.
John:20:21 Then Jesus said to them again, Peace to you. As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.
John:20:22 And saying this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit.
John:20:23 Of whomever you forgive the sins, they are forgiven to them. Or whomever you may retain, they are retained.
Luke 24:51 And it happened as He blessed them, He withdrew from them and was carried into Heaven.
Mark. 16:19 Then indeed, after speaking to them, the Lord was taken up into Heaven, and sat off the right of God. Psa. 110:1
Luke 24:52 And worshiping Him, they returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
Mark. 16:20 And going out, they preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word by the signs following. Amen.
Luke 24:53 and were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
John:20:24 But Thomas, one of the Twelve, the one called Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.
John:20:25 Then the other disciples said to him, We have seen the Lord. But he said to them, Unless I see the mark of the nails in His hands, and thrust my finger into the mark of the nails, and thrust my hand into His side, in no way will I believe.
John:20:26 And after eight days, His disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. The door having been locked, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said, Peace to you.
John:20:27 Then He said to Thomas, Bring your finger here and see My hands, and bring your hand and thrust into My side, and be not unbelieving, but believing.
John:20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
John:20:29 Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, you have believed. Blessed are the ones not seeing and believing.
John:20:30 Then truly Jesus did many other miracles in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book.
John:20:31 But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

The reason why the stories are not exactly the same is that parts of the story are from different people, who were not at the same place all the time. For example Mary went from the tomb to tell others, while the other women remained longer near the tomb.

Until this challenge is met, the resurrection narratives should be regarded as legends because reliable eyewitness testimony does not have this degree of growth or inconsistency.

Sorry, I don't see any growth or inconsistency.

I agree. The gospels were written in the lifetimes of the witnesses. There’s no evidence of it growing. But truthfully, if they were all exactly the same, the atheists would cry, “unbelievable because they’re the same!!” Since they demonstrate the normal differences that occur when witness who didn’t collude together, the atheists cry, “unbelievable because there are slight differences!” What no atheist wants to admit is that to a man, those 12 witnesses died horrible deaths or suffered torture that could have been ended had they recanted. No man suffers torture for what he knows to be a lie. And christians have done this down through the millennia. They would rather suffer than deny the truth. No one does this for a lie.

[Mae von H]

Sorry, I don't see any growth or inconsistency.

]

It is a misperception based on the false belief that the Bible is the default hypothesis and all that is needed is to deny everything and the Bible wins.

What is the default hypothesis and what do people have to deny (which sounds like a default hypothesis you have) so the Bible “wins!”

It is the basic logical flaw that makes pretty much all Bible apologetics invalid, logically.

Can you explain this please?

There fact of an equally valid rebuttal theory means that there is no good reason to believe the faithclaim, even before we get to problems that undermine the Bible and evidence that supports the alternative.

So far the “valid” rebuttal claim assumes facts for which there is no evidence and denies evidence that is solid. Seems like your case is built largely on false assumptions.

They actually know how that works, because they try to refute 'science' - notably evolution, but pointing up problems. They know that Problems undermine a hypothesis. They cannot answer Problems (though they usually have a bash - like the 'Marys split up' theory. But when that fails, the last resort is to deny everything.

But is was never about what people believed or did not believe, but about the 'debate'. The audience decides, and it is the best case that wins, not the one that can deny everything more stubbornly.

One can only hope that the results of the discussion get out into the public domain, where Religious propaganda has had it pretty much their own way until forty years ago.

There are quite a few debates on line and so far, the audience largely has decided the believer won.

[Mae von H]

Observation and thesis: The resurrection narratives are not reliable historical reports based on eyewitness testimony because they deviate too much from one another and grow in the telling in chronological order.

Professional detectives have examined the testimonials find they fall nicely within expected deviations from people telling the truth so this is unfounded.

This is not expected from reliable eyewitness testimony but is more expected from a legend developing over time.

There is no indication in the texts of any growing. John is actually quite different. There are zero earlier and decades/centuries later texts from which this conclusion can be drawn.

. In order to show the resurrection narratives evolve like a legend developing, I'm going to compare the ways Jesus is said to have been "seen" or experienced after the Resurrection in each account according to the order in which most scholars place the compositions. Remember, these accounts are claimed to be from eyewitnesses who all experienced the same events so we would at least expect some sort of consistency.

The consistency is exactly what is expected from different people telling of an event.

Beginning with Paul (50s CE), who is our earliest and only verified firsthand account in the entire New Testament from someone who claims to have "seen" Jesus, he is also the only verified firsthand account we have from someone who claims to have personally met Peter and James - Gal. 1:18-19.

Wrong, the disciples saw Jesus first. How can you miss that one?

Paul does not give any evidence of anything other than "visions" or "revelations" of Jesus. The Greek words ophthe (1 Cor 15:5-8), heoraka (1 Cor 9:1) and apokalupto (Gal. 1:16) do not necessarily imply the physical appearance of a person and so cannot be used as evidence for veridical experiences where an actual resurrected body was seen in physical reality. In Paul's account, it is unclear whether the "appearances" were believed to have happened before or after Jesus was believed to be in heaven, ultimately making the nature of these experiences ambiguous. Peter and James certainly would have told Paul about the empty tomb or the time they touched Jesus and watched him float to heaven. These "proofs" (Acts 1:3) would have certainly been helpful in convincing the doubting Corinthians in 1 Cor 15:12-20 and also help clarify the type of body the resurrected would have (v. 35). So these details are very conspicuous in their absence here.

On what basis do you conclude that the believers in Corinth were doubtful???

Paul's order of appearances: Peter, the twelve, the 500, James, all the apostles, Paul. No location is mentioned.

So it didn’t happen because the where isn’t mentioned? Really?

Mark (70 CE) adds the discovery of the empty tomb but does not narrate any appearances so no help here really.

The lack of the body is unimportant?

He just claims Jesus will be "seen" in Galilee. This is very unexpected if the account really came from Peter's testimony. Why leave out the most important part especially, if Papias was correct, that "Mark made sure not to omit anything he heard"? Did Peter just forget to tell Mark this!? Anyways, there is no evidence a resurrection narrative existed at the time of composition of Mark's gospel circa 70 CE.

How can you completely ignore the spread of the gospel and rapid growth of the believers so that there were millions by 70AD? Why were christian’s killed if there was no resurrection?

Mark's order of appearances: Not applicable. 

Matthew (80 CE) adds onto Mark's narrative, drops the remark that the "women told no one" from Mk
16:8 and instead, has Jesus suddenly appear to the women on their way to tell the disciples! It says they grabbed his feet which is not corroborated by any other account. Then, Jesus appeared to the disciples on a mountain in Galilee, another uncorroborated story, and says some even doubted it! (Mt. 28:17) So the earliest narrative doesn't even support the veracity of the event! Why would they doubt when they had already witnessed him the same night of the Resurrection according to Jn. 20:19? Well, under the development theory - John's story never took place! It's a later development, obviously, which perfectly explains both the lack of mention of any Jerusalem appearances in our earliest gospels plus the awkward "doubt" after already having seen Jesus alive!

Matthew's order of appearances: Two women (before reaching any disciples), then to the eleven disciples. The appearance to the women takes place after they leave the tomb in Jerusalem while the appearance to the disciples happens on a mountain in Galilee.

Luke (85 CE or later) - All of Luke's appearances happen in or around Jerusalem which somehow went unnoticed by the authors of Mark and Matthew. Jesus appears to two people on the Emmaus Road who don't recognize him at first. Jesus then suddenly vanishes from their sight. They return to tell the other disciples and a reference is made to the appearance to Peter (which may just come from 1 Cor 15:5 since it's not narrated). Jesus suddenly appears to the Eleven disciples (which would include Thomas). This time Jesus is "not a spirit" but a "flesh and bone" body that gets inspected, eats fish, then floats to heaven while all the disciples watch - conspicuously missing from all the earlier reports! Luke omits any appearance to the women and actually implies they *didn't* see Jesus. Acts 1:3 adds the otherwise unattested claim that Jesus appeared over a period of 40 days and says Jesus provided "many convincing proofs he was alive" which shows the stories were apologetically motivated. There is no evidence that Luke intended to convey Jesus ever appeared to anyone in Galilee. Moreover, Luke leaves no room for any Galilean appearance because he has Jesus tell the disciples to "stay in the city" of Jerusalem the same night of the resurrection - Lk. 24:49. It looks as though the Galilean appearance tradition has been erased by Luke which would be a deliberate alteration of the earlier tradition (since Luke was dependent upon Mark's gospel).

Luke's order of appearances: Two on the Emmaus Road, Peter, rest of the eleven disciples. All appearances happen in Jerusalem. Lk. 24:22-24 seems to exclude any appearance to the women. The women's report in Lk. 24:9-10 is missing any mention of seeing Jesus which contradicts Mt. 28:8-11 and Jn. 20:11-18.

John (90-110 CE) - the ascension has become tradition by the time John wrote (Jn. 3:13, 6:62, 20:17). Jesus appears to Mary outside the tomb who does not recognize him at first. Then Jesus, who can now teleport through locked doors, appears to the disciples minus Thomas. A week later we get the Doubting Thomas story where Jesus invites Thomas to poke his wounds. This story has the apologetic purpose that if you just "believe without seeing" you will be blessed. Lastly, there is another appearance by the Sea of Galilee in Jn. 21 in which Jesus appears to seven disciples. None of these stories are corroborated except for the initial appearance (which may draw upon Luke). It looks as though the final editor of John has tried to combine the disparate traditions of appearances.

John's order of appearances: Mary Magdalene (after telling Peter and the other disciple), the disciples minus Thomas (but Lk. 24:33 implies Thomas was there), the disciples again plus Thomas, then to seven disciples. In John 20 the appearances happen in Jerusalem and in John 21 they happen near the Sea of Galilee on a fishing trip.

Challenge: I submit this as a clear pattern of "development" that is better explained by the legendary growth hypothesis (LGH) as opposed to actual experienced events. Now the onus is on anyone who disagrees to explain why the story looks so "developed" while simultaneously maintaining its historical reliability. In order to achieve this, one must provide other reliable sources from people who experienced the same events but also exhibit the same amount of growth and disparity as the gospel resurrection narratives.

Until this challenge is met, the resurrection narratives should be regarded as legends because reliable eyewitness testimony does not have this degree of growth or inconsistency.

It’s like looking at the gnats in the forrest and insisting there aren’t any trees. From your view, there is no possible testimony you’d believe. None. It’s hopeless.

[AchillesHeel]

I agree. The gospels were written in the lifetimes of the witnesses.

That's debatable. They were written 40-60 years or more after the supposed events and their provenance is uncertain so we don't actually know if any eyewitnesses actually read these published stories. Irenaeus says Mark wrote after the deaths of Peter and Paul which took place in the mid 60s. All the other gospels came after Mark.

There’s no evidence of it growing.

This is the second outright denial without actually engaging with the comparative analysis of the sources from the original post. The story literally grows from Paul's spiritual/mystical Christ, to a missing body story in Mark, to a vague appearance on the mountain in Galilee (which is doubted) in Matthew, to much more realistic and corporeal appearances (which have obvious stated apologetic motivations for invention) followed by a witnessed ascension in Luke, then in John the ascension is assumed and we get the Doubting Thomas story plus another uncorroborated tale of a miraculous catch of 153 fish!

Oh yeah! There are also these two smoking guns.

John 20:30
"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book."

John 21:25
"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

How can you not see any development here?

But truthfully, if they were all exactly the same, the atheists would cry, “unbelievable because they’re the same!!” Since they demonstrate the normal differences that occur when witness who didn’t collude together, the atheists cry, “unbelievable because there are slight differences!”

Please provide examples of these "slight/normal differences" from other eyewitness sources which are exactly analogous to the differences we see in the gospels as I laid out in the original post.

What no atheist wants to admit is that to a man, those 12 witnesses died horrible deaths or suffered torture that could have been ended had they recanted. No man suffers torture for what he knows to be a lie. And christians have done this down through the millennia. They would rather suffer than deny the truth. No one does this for a lie.

This doesn't apply to my post because I reject traditional authorship and I don't believe the Resurrection narratives were based on anything the original witnesses said or believed. So they didn't "lie." It was later anonymous authors who made up these stories.

Professional detectives have examined the testimonials find they fall nicely within expected deviations from people telling the truth so this is unfounded.

Do you mean J. Warner Wallace, the former detective with a gimmick to sell? What examples does he give that are analogous to the differences in the narratives as I laid them out?

There is no indication in the texts of any growing. John is actually quite different. There are zero earlier and decades/centuries later texts from which this conclusion can be drawn.

I gave plenty of indications in my OP. The empty tomb gets added in Mark. The first narrative gets added in Matthew. Then more realistic and fantastic "anti-spiritual" passages (Lk. 24:39) as well as the ascension get added in Luke, then in John we get the Doubting Thomas as well as a miraculous fish fry! This is, by definition, a demonstrable growing story.

The consistency is exactly what is expected from different people telling of an event.

The fact that you haven't provided a single example says otherwise.....

Wrong, the disciples saw Jesus first. How can you miss that one?

I said Paul was "firsthand" meaning his statements come directly from him in the first person - "Jesus appeared to me" (1 Cor 15:8). Contrast this with the gospels which are all written in third person - "Jesus did this." No gospel text says "I saw this occur." Firsthand sources are considered more reliable than sources which are not or cannot shown to contain any firsthand information.

On what basis do you conclude that the believers in Corinth were doubtful???

Read v. 12 where it says some deny the resurrection of the dead then pay attention to how Paul tries to give every argument to demonstrate the contrary. No mention of an empty tomb, discarded grave clothes, touching Jesus or a witnessed ascension.

So it didn’t happen because the where isn’t mentioned? Really?

No. I just mentioned it because Luke's narrative excludes any appearance in Galilee whereas that's the only place Mark and Matthew thought Jesus appeared. No gospel resurrection narrative matches Paul's appearance chronology (who Jesus appeared to). So this is relevant in assessing the reliability of these later stories.

The lack of the body is unimportant?

The lack of the body that Paul doesn't mention, meaning it looks like a later development?

How can you completely ignore the spread of the gospel and rapid growth of the believers so that there were millions by 70AD? Why were christian’s killed if there was no resurrection?

You mean the spread of the gospel to gentiles decades later in foreign countries who couldn't verify the events themselves? Why did Mormonism spread? And millions? What's your source for that?

It’s like looking at the gnats in the forrest and insisting there aren’t any trees. From your view, there is no possible testimony you’d believe. None. It’s hopeless.

That's false. With eyewitness testimony we expect consistency. The gospel resurrection narratives are not consistent and exhibit growth. You obviously see this which is why you offer nothing other than insults.

[Mae von H]

I agree. The gospels were written in the lifetimes of the witnesses.

That's debatable. They were written 40-60 years or more after the supposed events and their provenance is uncertain so we don't actually know if any eyewitnesses actually read these published stories.

Doubtful. A full 40 years after the event Peter and Paul were dead. So they definitely wrote their pieces while they lived. And they weren’t about to die. They didn’t write after they were dead. You can decide to doubt eye witnesses read the accounts, but that’s a personal choice. Since the deaths aren’t referred to, it dates the pieces much earlier.

Irenaeus says Mark wrote after the deaths of Peter and Paul which took place in the mid 60s. All the other gospels came after Mark.

Itenaeus wrote Jesus died in his 50s. His information source is extremely dubious since he got that one wrong.

There’s no evidence of it growing.

This is the second outright denial without actually engaging with the comparative analysis of the sources from the original post. The story literally grows from Paul's spiritual/mystical Christ, to a missing body story in Mark, to a vague appearance on the mountain in Galilee (which is doubted) in Matthew, to much more realistic and corporeal appearances (which have obvious stated apologetic motivations for invention) followed by a witnessed ascension in Luke, then in John the ascension is assumed and we get the Doubting Thomas story plus another uncorroborated tale of a miraculous catch of 153 fish!

But that’s not the start of the historical account. You start years after the Resurrection, decide for no reason Paul had a “mystical” experience he, himself DOESNT say in full denial of his report of his experience. They report a catch of fish which you arbitrarily decide is “unsubstantiated” upon no grounds at all. What do you require for it to be “substantiated??” You decide there’s change over time even though many authors wrote one piece with no second to demonstrate change.

Oh yeah! There are also these two smoking guns.

John 20:30
"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book."

John 21:25
"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

How can you not see any development here?

Where is the development within the mind of ONE author maybe a few minutes or hours later?

But truthfully, if they were all exactly the same, the atheists would cry, “unbelievable because they’re the same!!” Since they demonstrate the normal differences that occur when witness who didn’t collude together, the atheists cry, “unbelievable because there are slight differences!”

Please provide examples of these "slight/normal differences" from other eyewitness sources which are exactly analogous to the differences we see in the gospels as I laid out in the original post.

What do you mean “other eye witness sources?” There are the gospels.

What no atheist wants to admit is that to a man, those 12 witnesses died horrible deaths or suffered torture that could have been ended had they recanted. No man suffers torture for what he knows to be a lie. And christians have done this down through the millennia. They would rather suffer than deny the truth. No one does this for a lie.

This doesn't apply to my post because I reject traditional authorship and I don't believe the Resurrection narratives were based on anything the original witnesses said or believed. So they didn't "lie." It was later anonymous authors who made up these stories.

So what did they believe they were willing to die for rather than deny and how do you know?

[JehovahsWitness]

You obviously see this which is why you offer nothing other than insults.

Insult are unnecessary; in the end ils a matter of faith; those that love and value the sacrifice of Jesus do so in part, on the basis of their confidencein the gospel narratives.

[Mae von H]

You obviously see this which is why you offer nothing other than insults.

Insult are unnecessary; in the end ils a matter of faith; those that love and value the sacrifice of Jesus do so in part, on the basis of their confidencein the gospel narratives.

For those who actually obey the teaching of Jesus, they know the truth. This bit we cannot intellectually convey to atheists. But those who’ve walked with Jesus doing as He instructs them know that they know the truth, though not exhaustively.