God's Plan?

[POI]

For Debate: Why didn't God directly author the Bible himself? Why instead give his instruction(s) to fallible and sinful humans to write down his wishes to paper, which then makes it quite easy for skeptics to conclude that such writings were not from any higher power at all?

[1213]

It led to finding all the problems we debate here. I guess it worked!!

Perhaps you are not in the end yet, and there is still some thinking remaining.

I would also prefer one that is crystal clear about any rules for living.

Please give one rule that is unclear to you?

Since my seeking led me to where I am, I can only conclude that if there is a god, it must be of the kind I would hope for. One that doesn't agree with slavery, rape, incest, and war.

I think Bible is against forced slavery. If a person voluntarily wants to be a slave, like apparently most people who pay taxes, is it wrong then?

There is nothing in the Bible that agrees with rape.

And I don't think Bible supports incest either.

Bible also tells:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Matt. 5:44-45

In my opinion that is against war.

One that doesn't require mental gymnastics to explain away inconsistencies with observation and reality.

I don't think God requires mental gymnastics. Those come from when people don't want to understand, or don't like the truth.

[TRANSPONDER]

It led to finding all the problems we debate here. I guess it worked!!

Perhaps you are not in the end yet, and there is still some thinking remaining.

But that is the 'mental gymnastics' (see below) that Bible apologists do to evadeproblems 'it will become explained in the end, so there is no problem' is the evasion.

I would also prefer one that is crystal clear about any rules for living.

Please give one rule that is unclear to you?

Well, how about the one about doing something useful or even just chillin' is better than organised worship? (healing on the sabbath and David and the Shewbread) cue: mental gymnastics. as well of course as give all your money to the poor and follow me Mental gymnastics to get out of doing that. He's no longer on earth so how word no longer counts.

Since my seeking led me to where I am, I can only conclude that if there is a god, it must be of the kind I would hope for. One that doesn't agree with slavery, rape, incest, and war.

I think Bible is against forced slavery. If a person voluntarily wants to be a slave, like apparently most people who pay taxes, is it wrong then?

There is nothing in the Bible that agrees with rape.

And I don't think Bible supports incest either.

Bible also tells:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Matt. 5:44-45

In my opinion that is against war.

You are clearly in denial about Slavery. The 'voluntary slavery' in not the same thing as buying from foreigners, they are your property for life. I('m sure this was said several times, and you (and other apologists) deny it. For the rest I leave it to others, but turn the other cheek and 'if someone steals your wallet, give him your car as well' is just bad NT advice which NOBODY actually follows.

One that doesn't require mental gymnastics to explain away inconsistencies with observation and reality.

I don't think God requires mental gymnastics. Those come from when people don't want to understand, or don't like the truth.

They sure do. Like the denial and evasion you have shown when put on the spot.
Sun made after the earth You actually claimed that the daylight was a cosmic light switched on and off to imitate daylight, on earth as the sun hadn't been made yet. Yet you deny the Bible shows the flat earth, but you insist it means round with a scribde circle ( hebrew chwug) inscribed on it. You deny science or cling to it in a denialist way as you do with the Bible itself, in a truly astonishing way.
Slavery is not really slavery (at least you don't go the nasty Maga route of 'we pay taxes, so slavery is ok').
Give your money to the poor ('Jesus is no longer on earth, so I don't need to follow THAT word')
And the persistent fiddling, invention and denial you showed over the resurrection contradictions is mental gymnastics that should be nominated for an award, if the Religion gave out credit rather than claiming it.

[Masterblaster]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #20]

Hello Mae von H

You say/ask - "But you ask a fair question and I answer it straightforward, I am neither a JW, a Mormon or a member of any other cult. How do you describe yourself?"
-----
Your lack of displayed 'preciousness ' about this whole theism thing is refreshing. Thank you for that, I hope I share this same blasee approach.

You introduced Satan....I couldn't even start to imagine the validity of such an entity. I would have to go back to Sumerian theology for him to make creative sense of any sort. What is Satan to you? Make it good, please.

How do I describe myself?

I poked into your religious background so therefore my own beliefs are fair game. Thank You again for the interest.

I was born and raised as a Catholic. Religion was a constant social event, for me, growing up , I tried to get my head around the Hell Doctrines and all that but ,in truth, I could never take them seriously.

It is a bit of a gun to your head at a young age. My grandchild who is in a Christian Group with his family( age 5) ,last week.

Grandad asks "How was your day at school?
Grandson replies " Worse than being in Hell"

This Satan stuff gets up my nose, as you have probably noticed. It creates apphorence within me, as does the concept of a crucifixion, or the sadism of an Inquisition.

Nowadays(last 20 years), I do not go to Chapel, and I only attend family religious functions as a willing spectator (Weddings,Funerals,Christenings,Etc) I have been to modern Marian Shrines and I truly enjoy visiting old historical Ecclesiastical sites.

I believe in theism as a concept that works and I believe in the Jesus/Jewish concept of a Kingdom of God, here on Earth.

You could accuse me of cherry picking what I like, or of hypocrisy, or whatever. It will be water off a duck's back to me as I deal with my own demons internally.
Thanks

[benchwarmer]

It led to finding all the problems we debate here. I guess it worked!!

Perhaps you are not in the end yet, and there is still some thinking remaining.

Agreed! I'm certainly not stopping to question/explore/think.

I would also prefer one that is crystal clear about any rules for living.

Please give one rule that is unclear to you?

If I were to get myself some slaves (let's pretend they comport to YOUR understanding of slavery in the Bible and they voluntarily became my slaves), which type of rod should I use to strike them with so I can be in harmony with both of the following passages of scripture? Should I have the slaves live a certain distance from my home so they are not technically my neighbor or something?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=NRSVUE

20 “When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment, for the slave is the owner’s property.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=NRSVUE

36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

Since my seeking led me to where I am, I can only conclude that if there is a god, it must be of the kind I would hope for. One that doesn't agree with slavery, rape, incest, and war.

I think Bible is against forced slavery. If a person voluntarily wants to be a slave, like apparently most people who pay taxes, is it wrong then?

Ignoring your continued false analogy of taxes being like slavery since I've refuted this recently with you, the Bible tells people exactly how to get some forced slaves. Have you not read these passages?

Taking virgins as spoils of war:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=NRSVUE

18 But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Buying slaves:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=NRSVUE

The Law concerning Slaves
21 “These are the ordinances that you shall set before them:

2 “When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, but in the seventh he shall go out a free person, without debt.

There is nothing in the Bible that agrees with rape.

See above. Only the naive would think that virgin girls taken as spoils of war won't be raped (where rape is defined as forced to have sex with the captor in case that isn't clear). We've also already gone over this in other discussions.

Even one of your fellow Christians thinks the reason they took virgins is to avoid STDs. Why would anyone worry about that if they aren't planning to have sex with the newly acquired virgins? I realize this isn't your argument (I hope), but clearly at least some Christians understand what's happening in these stories and are busy trying to white wash them with various excuses.

And I don't think Bible supports incest either.

Umm, are you not one of the Christians who thinks the creation story in Genesis is real?

Adam and Eve had children. Now what?

Bible also tells:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Matt. 5:44-45

In my opinion that is against war.

Cool, you are discovering contradictions all on your own! Nice!!

God incites war:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=NRSVUE

War against Midian
31 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Avenge the Israelites on the Midianites; afterward you shall be gathered to your people.” 3 So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm some of your number for the war, so that they may go against Midian, to execute the Lord’s vengeance on Midian.

One that doesn't require mental gymnastics to explain away inconsistencies with observation and reality.

I don't think God requires mental gymnastics. Those come from when people don't want to understand, or don't like the truth.

That's interesting. We are witnessing mental gymnastics in this very thread. Readers are likely very aware who is employing it. I don't need to convince you that you are doing it, I just need to show everyone else you are.

[TRANSPONDER]

The evasion and invention never ends.There are those who escape the implications of Eden (inbreeding) by suggesting that Eden was a particular area and there were other lands with other people (e.g Nod,) .

This - even if the Bible said so - would completely mess up the religious point as effectively, people outside the Eden area would not have fallen, and the only Original Sinners would be God's people and the peoples of the middle east.

Which would explain a few things. Though of course, they would have been wiped out apart from Noah, who was selected from the fallen Edenites while the ones who didn't fall were all sinful and were exterminated. Thankfully I neither believe nor need to believe anything the Bible says, so My brain doesn't need to be pickled, minced and formed into rissoles.

[benchwarmer]

I always find the reasons why former believers left the faith very interesting. My question is always what went wrong.

You are assuming facts not in evidence.

Nothing went wrong. I followed the facts and was unafraid to ask the probing questions. My current beliefs are driven by what I discovered.

I plan to continue to learn and grow. Seems everything is working correctly. I discovered a false religion. Maybe I'll find a true one at some point. Who knows? I only know it won't be Christianity as that ark has sailed.

I listened at length to a former passionate believer's story about being raised in a christian home, got higher degrees in theology and preached etc. The ones I personally know, Dan Barker, for example, left not for intellectual reasons but the reasons Jesus said would cause people to leave the faith.

I left for intellectual reasons and broken Bible promises. It wasn't a quick decision and it certainly wasn't a comfortable one. It can be hard to break free from all the peer pressure and slick apologetics. Thankfully the rose colored glasses finally slipped off and I'm no longer fooled. Which is kind of ironic since some Christians will claim exactly that - that I have been fooled by Satan. Uh right. I was fooled into studying scripture too closely. I always say to my Christian friends, if you don't want to follow my path, don't ask too many questions or read your Bible too closely.

Since we have been in discussion on a number of threads now, surely you can't be unaware of some of the many problems I found. You of course don't consider all these issues we are debating to be 'real problems'. That doesn't matter to me of course. Now I spend some of my time debating these issues and providing evidence for my point of view. Readers are free to agree or disagree.

Since you will ask and surely try and refute it, one example of a broken Bible promise:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=NRSVUE

22 Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God. 23 Truly I tell you, if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and if you do not doubt in your heart but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you. 24 So I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received[c] it, and it will be yours.

Your only defense now is to question my sincerity or somehow I was "doing it wrong". Trust me, I wasn't asking for a new car, riches, or the kind of things that would be seen as 'greedy'. Healing for loved ones, the end to egregious practices by members of our society, and many other things that had nothing to do directly with me.

What is the usual apologetic to this? "Sometimes God says no". Well, my observation was that "99.99999% of the time God says no". The few times it might appear to have been a yes, it was some innocuous thing that is just as easily explained by random chance.

I do wonder why you think the rules for living contained in Jesus' teaching are not crystal clear. What can be more clear than, treat others as you would like to be treated? Seems to me "forgive those who do you wrong" cannot be more clear. Can you elaborate on this please? What is foggy about Jesus' teaching as to how to treat others?

How about this:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ion=NRSVUE

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter,[c] not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore, whoever breaks[d] one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Which means the entire Law from the OT is in effect. Since I can no longer twist my brain into harmonizing all the bad things we constantly debate here (slavery, rape, incest, war, etc) with "Love your neighbor as yourself), I have to conclude that unclear messaging likely means this isn't from a god. It smells a lot like humans codifying their practices from different time periods, not like a logical god laying down simple, clear rules from the beginning.

Basic human decency was around before the Jews (and by extension Christians). They hold no special place in trying to codify morality based on their understanding of their god concept.

We are a social species and continue to evolve our ideals and morals based on trying to live in harmony. Those of us who have accepted these 'better' moral codes no longer accept religions that pretend to be morally superior when their religious text clearly tell a different story. There's a reason Christian apologetics exists and it's not to spread a better morality. It's to obfuscate, reinterpret, hand wave, and generally excuse all the things modern humans now consider 'bad' so that people will not leave the faith (or believe in the first place).

I say keep the apologetics up. Every single one I've seen so far is easily countered such that readers should be able to make an informed decision. Choose faith and ignore what's clearly written, or accept one of the excuses so you can continue to have your faith.

The untruths in the church (not in the Bible) he rejected but did not find the truth within the scripture. I am very sorry so many reject the lies the church teaches but do not find the truth instead. Its hard to fully blame them for leaving.

Honestly, the number of different Christian churches and 'non-church' variants should be a giant red flag that the Bible is not clear. Yet we have each church/individual Christian claiming that they know the real truth and everyone else is wrong/deceived/whatever.

You know what the solution is? Take the blinders off, read the source material for yourself, ask questions, debate, pray, and whatever else you have to do to find the truth as best as you can. Stop just blindly swallowing apologetics to paper over clear problems. Research why these problems exist and if they are deal breakers for you. Don't cower under threats of hell or whatever other scare tactics will be used against you.

If you honestly seek the truth, no loving god should fault you for that or whatever conclusion you reach.

If by some chance the God of the Bible is actually real and also truly loving and merciful, I can't imagine He would be mad at me for refusing to accept some of what I consider bad traits that the Bible clearly portrays. Ironically, my refusal to believe what I consider an insulting view of God as portrayed by the Bible is me defending God. i.e. Surely God is not like this as written. This has to be human invention.

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #20]

Hello Mae von H

You say/ask - "But you ask a fair question and I answer it straightforward, I am neither a JW, a Mormon or a member of any other cult. How do you describe yourself?"
-----
Your lack of displayed 'preciousness ' about this whole theism thing is refreshing. Thank you for that, I hope I share this same blasee approach.

Thank you but what is preciousness? I mean, I know what precious is, but how is this missing or displayed in such a discussion. I am curious.

You introduced Satan....I couldn't even start to imagine the validity of such an entity. I would have to go back to Sumerian theology for him to make creative sense of any sort. What is Satan to you? Make it good, please.

Why not go to the Bible? It is not as old and a lot more reliable.

How do I describe myself?

I poked into your religious background so therefore my own beliefs are fair game. Thank You again for the interest.

I was born and raised as a Catholic. Religion was a constant social event, for me, growing up , I tried to get my head around the Hell Doctrines and all that but ,in truth, I could never take them seriously.

It is a bit of a gun to your head at a young age. My grandchild who is in a Christian Group with his family( age 5) ,last week.

Grandad asks "How was your day at school?
Grandson replies " Worse than being in Hell"

I am afraid I laughed out loud at that one.

This Satan stuff gets up my nose, as you have probably noticed. It creates apphorence within me, as does the concept of a crucifixion, or the sadism of an Inquisition.

Nowadays(last 20 years), I do not go to Chapel, and I only attend family religious functions as a willing spectator (Weddings,Funerals,Christenings,Etc) I have been to modern Marian Shrines and I truly enjoy visiting old historical Ecclesiastical sites.

I believe in theism as a concept that works and I believe in the Jesus/Jewish concept of a Kingdom of God, here on Earth.

You could accuse me of cherry picking what I like, or of hypocrisy, or whatever. It will be water off a duck's back to me as I deal with my own demons internally.
Thanks

OK, well, thanks for the information. I have no bones to pick with you. While some Catholics are Christians, same as some Baptists are, the Catholics are much more religious than Protestants and a trip to Rome shows this very clearly. Our whole neighborhood was catholic except our family and none of them ended up catholic, despite there being families of 5 or 6 children. Only 2 of the 10 or so children were christians as adults. They said it was shoved down their throats. I sometimes when with them to catholic church.

[POI]

What’s interesting is that others have read the Bible and knew there is a God behind it. They saw something you don’t see.

Many believe L. Ron Hubbard too. So?

The next interesting question is <WHY> they see anything more than mere humans behind it? I reckon the reason(s) vary from person to person. But are any of those reason valid? I've explored many and have yet to find any. Maybe your reason(s) will change my perspective. But, being I have explored this topic for quite some time now, my confidence to be convinced the Bible was "inspired" is now growing less and less.

I thanked you for this because you surmised correctly the fallacy of thinking the words are magical or that writers were essentially suffering from what I coin as “a seizure from above” and took dictation. Nothing could be farther from the truth. They were inspired, not controlled. The former is an extremely delightful experience, the latter horrible.

Humans obviously possess imperfection. Why use an imperfect tool to express your wants and desires? Why not just instead write them yourself? When skeptics point out the flaws, it then becomes the knee-jerk reaction for many believers to point out the erroring pen of humans. Also, the fact that it was written just like every other document, using the exact same materials, and with no foreknowledge to boot, easily leads many to dismiss or discard these documents. The Bible offers nothing forward thinking, which could not have already been comprised from the humans of the time period for which it was written.

And now we skeptics get to enjoy the countless Christian apologetics to come

[Mae von H]

What’s interesting is that others have read the Bible and knew there is a God behind it. They saw something you don’t see.

Many believe L. Ron Hubbard too. So?

Being charmed by a living man is not the same as seeing God inspiring an old book. Did millions believe and lay down their lives for such? Do you really think this is the same?

The next interesting question is <WHY> they see anything more than mere humans behind it?

This would take a lot of space. Would if make a difference?

I reckon the reason(s) vary from person to person. But are any of those reason valid?

They are so valid that the people were deeply convinced. The claims are valid for me as well, but not for you so how do we measure this?

I've explored many and have yet to find any. Maybe your reason(s) will change my perspective.

Well, I’d be willing, but it would take some work.

But, being I have explored this topic for quite some time now, my confidence to be convinced the Bible was "inspired" is now growing less and less.

What is your standard of measure?

I thanked you for this because you surmised correctly the fallacy of thinking the words are magical or that writers were essentially suffering from what I coin as “a seizure from above” and took dictation. Nothing could be farther from the truth. They were inspired, not controlled. The former is an extremely delightful experience, the latter horrible.

Humans obviously possess imperfection. Why use an imperfect tool to express your wants and desires?

Relationship. He wants relationship. We walk with Him, not merely serve.

Why not just instead write them yourself?

Relationship.

When skeptics point out the flaws, it then becomes the knee-jerk reaction for many believers to point out the erroring pen of humans.

That’s too bad. Many believers aren’t well educated on these things.

Also, the fact that it was written just like every other document, using the exact same materials, and with no foreknowledge to boot, easily leads many to dismiss or discard these documents.

Billions have read these things and believed.

The Bible offers nothing forward thinking, which could not have already been comprised from the humans of the time period for which it was written.

Here we ought to talk because nothing could be further from the truth. I’ve read the ancient creation accounts, for example, and they’re nothing at all like Genesis. The oldest book Job, describes the water cycle, and other geological systems that are more advanced than Europe in the middle ages. The concepts in the Bible are way beyond what man knew.

And now we skeptics get to enjoy the countless Christian apologetics to come

Why do you then exchange posts with us if you don’t enjoy it?

[POI]

Your debate question assumes facts not in evidence.

No, it doesn't. Here is the part in bold. "which then makes it quite easy for skeptics to conclude that such writings were not from any higher power at all?". The conclusion of "no higher power at all" is actually more rationale.

These things contained in those writings were written such that men can read and believe.

The exact same argument can be made about any competing collection of claimed works from "above." If the argument is not distinctive to your set of beliefs, then we cannot rule out any of the other collection of claims, using the same argument.

For this purpose they are sufficient

Negative, as expressed above.

There are followers of Jesus the Christ literally all over the world.

The same goes for other religions, for which you deny. So?

So the fact that many would find any excuse to deny the inspiration of those works most likely because they do not want to do what is contained within them, is not to be avoided no matter what God did. You can read what T wrote of when he left Christianity. He felt a freedom. Of course he did. He was not longer restrained by the moral code of treating others as you would like to be treated. He was under no moral code at all.

I'm finding it more and more difficult to ignore your strawman arguments of myself and others. However, I'll let Transponder respond to this, if he so chooses.

Can you see what it is preferable to deny the existence of the deity behind it and the coming judgement of the deeds of one's life after death? Can you see the freedom those who deny both feel? One can behave as badly as one wishes to anyone without any fear of consequences from God. Man might give consequences depending upon how powerful the perpetrator is, but without a Divine Judge, one feels free.

My prior point is that God could reveal himself to all, in a way in which no one could deny his mere existence. Apparently, he did that plenty way-back-when, conveniently before we had the means to demonstrate it. My point is that we still have the freewill to reject him. However, as it stands for me, I "reject" him because I do not believe he even exists. If he did, maybe I would be waging forward with a lot of the same Christian apologetics you are providing.

So God has made his presence known/proven to millions of people and really over time, billions. The atheists are a very tiny minority in human history and the rest of mankind, were they around to vote, would simply know they are ignorant...at least for now.

I would agree atheists are the extreme minority. I have a hypothesis as to why: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 4&start=60

That state will change. Of that we have no doubt.

I won't hold my breath.