Athanasian Creed - The Man-Made Doctrine

[2timothy316]

For clarity, is the Athanasian Creed found here https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/c ... sian-creed the accepted belief of the trinity for all trinitarians?
If not what is? Who is reading this creed for the first time? Who considers it to be holy scripture?

The creed ends with "one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully."
If it isn't scripture...How do they have the authority to say such a thing?

[SiNcE_1985]

And my other questions?

My bad.

Sure, you can agree with some parts and not the others.

Remember, it ain't in the Bible, so we shouldn't put it on the same pedestal as we do the divine scriptures.

But still, it is rich in its Biblical truth value..and the creed itself pretty much NAILS the doctrine of the Trinity.

The only problem is, it's preface states that you will perish if you don't believe it..and that is where I disagree.

Why?

Because I don't believe that whether or not one believes in the Trinity will effect his/her belief in the central message of the Gospel.

[2timothy316]

And my other questions?

My bad.

Sure, you can agree with some parts and not the others.

How is the possible? 500 years ago you and I would have likely been killed for even having this conversation. How does an individual get to dictate what they do or don't agree with?

Remember, it ain't in the Bible, so we shouldn't put it on the same pedestal as we do the divine scriptures.

Do you think the trinity creed is a man-made doctrine?

But still, it is rich in its Biblical truth value..and the creed itself pretty much NAILS the doctrine of the Trinity.

The only problem is, it's preface states that you will perish if you don't believe it..and that is where I disagree.

Why?

Because I don't believe that whether or not one believes in the Trinity will effect his/her belief in the central message of the Gospel.

Interesting. This is quite different from what scriptures say. John 3:15 says that one must believe in Jesus to have everlasting live. For a trinitarian, wouldn't believing in Jesus include believing he is God? Shouldn't a person that doesn't believe perish? Explain this contradiction.

[The Tanager]

That may well be, but to conclude that the spirit is a person and that Almighty God YHWH and the Son are equal in age, rank, power and authority is totally incorrect. When Jesus was on earth he endlessly debated with the Pharisees whose ideas (like those of the trinitarians) came from "putting scriptural passages together". The problem is they misunderstood the scriptures they were putting together, and put them together incorrectly.

MATTHEW 22:29

In reply Jesus said to them: “You are mistaken, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God

You claim it is incorrect. Trinitarians claim you are incorrect. That’s the question. Do you have an argument you want to support your interpretation with here?

[The Tanager]

I wouldn't go to the other early "fathers" because they are part of the great apostacy that Jesus and his disciples warned of. The only fathers that I would give any credence to are the three that existed in the first century, closer to the time of Jesus. They are Clement, Polycarp, and Ignatius. There is no trinity evident in their letters. They mention just God and Christ, two individuals.

Clement alsos says this in chapter 58 of his first letter, talking about trusting the most hallowed name of His majesty as God lives…Jesus lives…and the Spirit lives which is stereotypical in the Hebrew scriptures applied to Yahweh (e.g., 2 Sam 14:11, 2 Chron 18:13, Jer 16:14-15, Jer 38:16, Hos 4:15

Clement also opens his second letter with these words: “Brethren, it is fitting that you should think of Jesus Christ as of God - as the Judge of the living and the dead.”

In chapter 13 Clement writes “For when they hear from us that God says…and then quotes Jesus’ words about loving those who hate you. He doesn’t say Jesus says, but God said it.

Polycarp writes “who shall believe on our Lord and God Jesus Christ and on his Father that raised him from the dead” (Phil 12:2). He calls Jesus God.

Even if you think the longer one is the true one it still calls Jesus God in that same chapter. It says the physician is the only true God and “we have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began…” Polycarp believed Jesus was God, was the Physician, which is the only true God. Ignatius also calls Jesus our God in Romans 3, Romans 6, Polycarp 8.

[SiNcE_1985]

Interesting. This is quite different from what scriptures say. John 3:15 says that one must believe in Jesus to have everlasting live.

For a trinitarian, wouldn't believing in Jesus include believing he is God? Shouldn't a person that doesn't believe perish? Explain this contradiction.

Well, thank goodness we don't make a doctrine out of one scripture, unlike Jehovah's Witnesses.

"One must believe in him"...it doesn't say in what capacity must you believe in him..so is up for interpretation.

My genuine assessment of Jesus and the New Testament does not have it screaming out "you must believe Jesus is God" at me.

But it does scream out "you must have faith in Jesus and accept him as Lord and Savior".

And keep in mind, I am Trinitarian to the core, but if I don't see it, I dont see it.

[2timothy316]

Interesting. This is quite different from what scriptures say. John 3:15 says that one must believe in Jesus to have everlasting live.

For a trinitarian, wouldn't believing in Jesus include believing he is God? Shouldn't a person that doesn't believe perish? Explain this contradiction.

Well, thank goodness we don't make a doctrine out of one scripture, unlike Jehovah's Witnesses.

"One must believe in him"...it doesn't say in what capacity must you believe in him..so is up for interpretation.

So, it gives one wiggle room to believe whatever one wants to believe. Convenient. I guess one could interpret that Jesus was a flying purple dinosaur and it would be fine.

My genuine assessment of Jesus and the New Testament does not have it screaming out "you must believe Jesus is God" at me.

But it does scream out "you must have faith in Jesus and accept him as Lord and Savior".

And keep in mind, I am Trinitarian to the core, but if I don't see it, I dont see it.

Don't think I haven't noticed you keep avoiding the 'is the trinity a man-made doctrine' question. This will be the 2nd time you've avoided it.

[JehovahsWitness]

That may well be, but to conclude that the spirit is a person and that Almighty God YHWH and the Son are equal in age, rank, power and authority is totally incorrect. When Jesus was on earth he endlessly debated with the Pharisees whose ideas (like those of the trinitarians) came from "putting scriptural passages together". The problem is they misunderstood the scriptures they were putting together, and put them together incorrectly.

MATTHEW 22:29

In reply Jesus said to them: “You are mistaken, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God

You claim it is incorrect. Trinitarians claim you are incorrect. That’s the question. Do you have an argument you want to support your interpretation with here?

I dont understand what you are asking me. Sorry.


JW

[SiNcE_1985]

So, it gives one wiggle room to believe whatever one wants to believe. Convenient. I guess one could interpret that Jesus was a flying purple dinosaur and it would be fine.

That is what people do anyway...thus all the denominations and sects of Christianity.

Jehovah's Witnesses included.

Don't think I haven't noticed you keep avoiding the 'is the trinity a man-made doctrine' question. This will be the 2nd time you've avoided it.

Avoiding it?

The part that I agree with is Biblical...the part that I don't is man-made or whatever you want to call non-Biblical teachings.

Now, how about that?

[The Tanager]

I dont understand what you are asking me. Sorry.

I'm simply saying to make your case instead of just claiming that Trinitarians don't know the Scriptures correctly. If you are going to argue the Athanasian Creed is non-scriptural, then offer support here or we can just stick to the other thread if the focus on the Athanasian creed doesn't add anything to your case there.

[2timothy316]

So, it gives one wiggle room to believe whatever one wants to believe. Convenient. I guess one could interpret that Jesus was a flying purple dinosaur and it would be fine.

That is what people do anyway...thus all the denominations and sects of Christianity.

Jehovah's Witnesses included.

"That is what people do anyway"...So you're just following others. Typical but thanks for this insight.

Don't think I haven't noticed you keep avoiding the 'is the trinity a man-made doctrine' question. This will be the 2nd time you've avoided it.

Avoiding it?

The part that I agree with is Biblical...the part that I don't is man-made or whatever you want to call non-Biblical teachings.

Now, how about that?

As far as I'm concerned, if part of of the Athanasian creed is man-made then all of its. Because things that are God breathed have nothing false in them at all. Thus the Athanasian creed is not God breathed, not important for salvation and thus not important and can be discarded. Using this information, I'll be able to talk others who are not so sure about the trinity and help them uproot this non-scriptural belief. After all, their salvation doesn't depend on it. This has been very helpful.