Jesus said that we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him. He stated clearly that his Father was the only true God (John 17:3); he didn't say that we are the only true God. In many places in the Scriptures he calls the Father "my God."
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3, KJV)
"Jesus saith unto her [Mary], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father, but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. (John 20:17, KJV)
"At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34, KJV)
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall no more go out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, KJV)
I think Jesus wants us to recognize that his Father, Jehovah, is God, and he is God's Son. (John 10:36) What do you make of this?
Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #21Yeah, and it also states in verse 7 that he took the form of a servant.onewithhim wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 2:46 pm Philippians 2:5-9 doesn't say that Jesus was God, it says he was in the FORM of God (a spirit being)
But according to JW theology, Jesus was created by God and served (was a servant) to his Father for X amount of time before the creation of the world.
Which is a pity^, because that contradicts verse 7, which states that Jesus became (took the form) of a servant.
Well, if Jesus had to become a servant, then he obviously wasn't a servant prior...otherwise, he WOULDN'T HAVE TO BECOME what he ALWAYS was.
So, what was Jesus before he made himself nothing (v. 7) and became a servant? He wasn't a servant.
So what was he, if he wasn't a servant?
Tell me.
Well, let me rephrase that., and there is nothing to indicate that "he gave up his Godship."
Rephrase: He gave up his divine privileges.
What do you think "made himself nothing" means.
Obviously, he had to give up something, to make himself nothing (v.7)
Um, yes it does.Nowhere does it say that Jesus and God were equals.
Jesus said it himself.
Phillip asked for Jesus to show them the Father..and Jesus said that if you see him, you see Father (John 14:9).
So basically, Jesus is saying that his presence before his disciples was just as good as if the Father was present with his disciples....which, is straight-up blasphemy if it weren't true.
I would say that is equal to Father...not because I have my own agenda to push, but because Jesus said it, not me.
Yeah, and Jesus was also subordinate to Pontius Pilate, and Caesar.Jesus is shown to be subordinate to God even after he returned to heaven.
"the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3).
So, if he can be subordinate to earthly, heathen creatures..then be can also be subordinate to the Most High.
And those divine titles that Jesus gave himself come from Revelations, which is also after he returned to Heaven.
Not even gonna go down the "worship" rabbit hole."Worship" has been addressed in this forum but apparently you missed it. It can mean to be venerated as someone in high authority and powerful, such as a judge or a king or governor, etc. It is not the same worship we give to God. So "worship" has different meanings, depending on the context. Jesus accepted peoples' respect.
You got two choices, man; swallow blood, or swallow pride.
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #22See, that is where you are WRONG, JW.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:38 pm
Because Jesus is Thomas' God. He's just not his AMLIGHTY God.
Rev 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
This is obviously Jesus
....
Rev 4:8
Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty who was, and is, and is to come.”
Same thing. Obviously Jesus being referred to.
....
Rev 11:16-18
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
John 5:22 says that the Son will be the judge, not the Father.
And the same judge in Rev 11:18, is the same person who is called the Almighty in verse 17...which is the Son...which is obviously Jesus.
....
So, we see that Jesus is called Almighty, contrary to what JW's believe and teach.
You got two choices, man; swallow blood, or swallow pride.
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #23John 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
My comment: Christ is here teaching us that if we ask in faith nothing doubting nd such is asked is according to the spirit and not asking amiss that such will be granted.
John 14:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
My comments: Christ is herein teaching us that though our body of flesh and bones shall die, that our spirit body will never die and that our body of “flesh and bones“ will come forth in the resurrection with an immortal body of flesh and bone as was demonstrated by his resurrection.
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
My comment: Christ makes it very clear that he is doing the very works that he has heretofore seen the Father do. ()We are not told how many eons ago the Father has done the very works that Christ is now doing.
25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
My comments: Christ makes it very clear that even though their physical body is dead, the their spirit body is very much alive and will hear his voice.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
My comments regarding Revelation 1:8 : In this powerful verse Christ is testifying that he is the very (I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.) So we have the very testimony from Christ himself that he is also the Almighty. My personal testimony is 100% in harmony with his!
You JW’s fail to accept that Jesus Christ is Immanuel or God with us, that Christ is the creator of this earth. That the great creator himself has come down among men into a mortal state as the great exemplar to fulfill his divine mission to perform the mighty atonement for the sins of all mankind, which would then would also allow us to likewise receive an immortal resurrection of our bodies of “flesh and bone” exactly as his body which he so aptly taught his disciples.
You JW’s have created a “man made doctrine” that Jehovah is God the Father.
You JW’s also deny the Holy Ghost who is God’s minister who is a revelator who will teach us ALL THINGS pertaining to God and godliness. By your very position, you relegate you understanding of heavenly things to nothing but your own man made deductive reasoning.
John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11
Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
My comment on the above: You JW’s have no priesthood authority and power to do the works Christ is speaking of.
13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
My comment: Again I so state that you JW’s have rejected the revelations of heavenly things that are being taught by the Holy Ghost, who as stated in the scriptures may by this power we may learn the truth of all things.
17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22
Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25
These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
My comments: Wherein in JW doctrine do you accept the latter day revelations of the Holy Ghost?
Revelation 14:
6
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
My comments:
If the fullness of the gospel was not lost, then why would there be any need for a heavenly messenger to bring back to earth this “everlasting gospel which was to be be preached to all who live on this earth?
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
My final comment on this post:
I think it is an understatement that you JW’s reject Jesus Christ,s witness that He is “Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending” that he is also the “Almighty.” As he so testified in Revelation 1:8.
My comment: Christ is here teaching us that if we ask in faith nothing doubting nd such is asked is according to the spirit and not asking amiss that such will be granted.
John 14:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
My comments: Christ is herein teaching us that though our body of flesh and bones shall die, that our spirit body will never die and that our body of “flesh and bones“ will come forth in the resurrection with an immortal body of flesh and bone as was demonstrated by his resurrection.
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
My comment: Christ makes it very clear that he is doing the very works that he has heretofore seen the Father do. ()We are not told how many eons ago the Father has done the very works that Christ is now doing.
25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
My comments: Christ makes it very clear that even though their physical body is dead, the their spirit body is very much alive and will hear his voice.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
My comments regarding Revelation 1:8 : In this powerful verse Christ is testifying that he is the very (I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.) So we have the very testimony from Christ himself that he is also the Almighty. My personal testimony is 100% in harmony with his!
You JW’s fail to accept that Jesus Christ is Immanuel or God with us, that Christ is the creator of this earth. That the great creator himself has come down among men into a mortal state as the great exemplar to fulfill his divine mission to perform the mighty atonement for the sins of all mankind, which would then would also allow us to likewise receive an immortal resurrection of our bodies of “flesh and bone” exactly as his body which he so aptly taught his disciples.
You JW’s have created a “man made doctrine” that Jehovah is God the Father.
You JW’s also deny the Holy Ghost who is God’s minister who is a revelator who will teach us ALL THINGS pertaining to God and godliness. By your very position, you relegate you understanding of heavenly things to nothing but your own man made deductive reasoning.
John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11
Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
My comment on the above: You JW’s have no priesthood authority and power to do the works Christ is speaking of.
13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
My comment: Again I so state that you JW’s have rejected the revelations of heavenly things that are being taught by the Holy Ghost, who as stated in the scriptures may by this power we may learn the truth of all things.
17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22
Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25
These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
My comments: Wherein in JW doctrine do you accept the latter day revelations of the Holy Ghost?
Revelation 14:
6
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
My comments:
If the fullness of the gospel was not lost, then why would there be any need for a heavenly messenger to bring back to earth this “everlasting gospel which was to be be preached to all who live on this earth?
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
My final comment on this post:
I think it is an understatement that you JW’s reject Jesus Christ,s witness that He is “Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending” that he is also the “Almighty.” As he so testified in Revelation 1:8.
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #24SiNcE_1985 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:38 pm...The Father and Son share the same nature/essence/divinity. However, they have different roles as it pertains to how they deal with their creation.
Get it?
No. Perhaps you can simply answer the question: do you believe that the risen Christ, currently in heaven is equal in rank, power, age and authority to Almighty God The Father ? Yes or no.
JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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SiNcE_1985
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #25It does not appear that the risen Christ, currently in Heaven, has equal rank and the jury is out on the authority part.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:10 pm No. Perhaps you can simply answer the question: do you believe that the risen Christ, currently in heaven is equal in rank, power, age and authority to Almighty God The Father ? Yes or no.
JW
He gave up those things (Phil 2:5-9) and whether he was given them back (fully), is the question.
However, whether he does or does not have equal rank/authority; neither has any bearing on whether he is equal in terms of nature, essence, and DIVINITY with God the Almighty Father...because he is.
And that is my point of emphasis.
You got two choices, man; swallow blood, or swallow pride.
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TheHolyGhost
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #26Jesus never ever said "we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him."onewithhim wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:21 pm Jesus said that we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him.
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #27Emphasis MINESiNcE_1985 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 2:03 pm
It does not appear that the risen Christ, currently in Heaven, has equal rank * [to the Father]...
That is correct; then we have no issue.
*RANK : (someone or something) a rank or place within a grading system.
Don't care. As long as you recognise that the Father currently outranks the Son (he that says rank says authority) couldn't care less about your attempt to catagorized their "nature".SiNcE_1985 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 2:03 pm.
However, whether he does or does not have equal rank/authority; neither has any bearing on whether he is equal in terms of nature, essence, and DIVINITY with God the Almighty Father.. And that is my point of emphasis.
The bottom line is , when Almighty God The Father says "jump" the resurrected Christ in heaven says "How High?" and that subordination colours everything since if we want to address The Most High (the highest in rank) , you have conceded that we would need to to address YHWH (The Father) not his subordinate in rank ...the son. And if any human wants to worship The Most High alone they worship the Father not the Son.
PSAM 83:18 - English Revised Version
That they may know that thou alone, whose name is JEHOVAH, art the Most High over all the earth
Everything else is just gravvy
Have a nice day.
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #28Cool.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:46 amEmphasis MINESiNcE_1985 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 21, 2024 2:03 pm
It does not appear that the risen Christ, currently in Heaven, has equal rank * [to the Father]...
That is correct; then we have no issue.
That is not an issue...nor is it where the battle is being fought.Don't care. As long as you recognise that the Father currently outranks the Son (he that says rank says authority)
You can have that one.
The war is being waged on whether or not Jesus is God...and as I've explained and demonstrated, just because the Son has a lower rank than the Father does not lessen the essence of the Son's being.
So, your relishing of the whole "ranks" thing means nothing, because I can/am granting you that, yet, the fact remains.
Jesus is God.
It is easy not to care when you don't have anything to refute what I said.couldn't care less about your attempt to catagorized their "nature".
When I was young and my father told me to clean my room and I said "ok, dad".The bottom line is , when Almighty God The Father says "jump" the resurrected Christ in heaven says "How High?"
Was my father a higher being than I?
No.
We are of the same essence/nature.
Human.
If you can understand that, you should be able to understand how the relationship between the heavenly Father and heavenly Son works.
As I shared with onewithhim...Jesus said that if you see him, you see the father (John 14:9).and that subordination colours everything since if we want to address The Most High (the highest in rank) , you have conceded that we would need to to address YHWH (The Father) not his subordinate in rank ...the son. And if any human wants to worship The Most High alone they worship the Father not the Son.
PSAM 83:18 - English Revised Version
That they may know that thou alone, whose name is JEHOVAH, art the Most High over all the earth
Everything else is just gravvy
Have a nice day.
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
If the father is so MUCH higher than Jesus...and also created Jesus (according to false Watchtower teachings), then Jesus would have been speaking blasphemy...because no created being can place himself on the same level as God.
But Jesus did...because he is also God.
Just because Jesus humbled himself and placed himself at the Father's authority (Phil 2:5-9) doesn't make him any less God.
In the same way the wife is under the authority of the husband, yet she is no less of a human.
Easy to understand. Difficult to accept...when your mind has been hammered away at with false teachings for so many years.
You got two choices, man; swallow blood, or swallow pride.
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #291. How can Jesus share in the glory God had and has (John 17:5) if God shares His glory with no one (Isa 42:8)?
In 2 Thess 2:14, the glory talked about relates to his disciples being sanctified and does require equality in that sense. The glory in John 17:5 also requires equality of some sort.
In John 17:5, Jesus prays that the Father would glorify him with the glory he had with him before creation. That doesn’t fit Kittel’s definition that it is what made Jesus impressive to man. It didn’t have anything to do with his resurrection and ascension because the world wasn’t even made it, much less Jesus’ incarnation, life, death, and resurrection. Jesus says he shares (”had with you”) glory with the Father, not that he has a different glory.onewithhim wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 12:05 pmThe Hebrew ka-vohdh is most often translated as "glory," but originally meant "opinion or reputation." A couple of its senses are "honor" (Luke 14:10) and "splendor" (Luke 2:9; ICorinthians 15:40). As to the meaning of "glory" in relation to Jehovah God, the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Kittel explains: "If in relation to man(ka-vohdh) denotes that which makes him impressive and demands recognition, whether in terms of material possessions or striking (dignity or importance), in relation to God it implies that which makes God impressive to man."(Translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol.2, p.238) So "glory" may refer to an impressive evidence of God's almighty power.
Concerning Jesus....the Bible says that, at his first miracle, "he made his glory manifest." (John 2:11) "Glory" here refer to an impressive evidence of miraculous power identifying Jesus as the promised Messiah (John 11:40-44). Jesus prayed, on another occasion, "Father glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." Jesus used the term here to refer to the EXALTED STATE that he enjoyed in heaven before coming to the earth. In answer to that prayer, Jehovah "glorified" his Servant, Jesus, by resurrecting him and bringing him back into heaven (Acts 3:13-15). The glory that was seen at the transfiguration had to do with the regal magnificence that Jesus was to receive at his coming in Kingdom power (2Peter 1:16). So Jesus isn't usurping any glory that belonged to his Father, but was reflecting his Father's glory as kindness to him concerning his resurrection and ascention once again to heaven. And all this is impressive evidence of God's power. The term "glory" has various shades of meaning. Jesus' glory wasn't the same as the glory that belongs to Almighty God, but showed God's power in relation to his resurrection and return to heaven.
Hebrews doesn’t say he is a representative but an exact representation, an engraving, a mould, a copy of sorts. But how we interpret that doesn’t really help us with John’s intent. Jesus says he brought the Father glory by finishing his work, but then talks about a different glory, the one they both had together before the world began. If this glory is something non-divine about Jesus’ then why would God be sharing in it? No, it makes much more sense that Jesus is sharing in the Father’s glory.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 2:29 pmWhat glory did Jesus have?
Jesus said that previous to his time on earth he enjoyed glory. He did not say he enjoyed glory as the supreme ruler of the universe, or glory as Almighty God Himself, he simply said he had glory with / before / in his Father's presence. Jesus, as God's son and first creation reflects God's glory in that he is a representative of God (Heb 1:3)
Did Jesus not "share" God's Glory?
Some translations do refer to the glory Jesus "shared" with God or "the glory that he had with the Father" but none speak of them sharing God's glory or name as the Supreme ruler of the universe . Plus Jesus words do no do not say whose glory he shared. If someone says they shared or had a Pizza with the President can that not mean you shared your own with him rather he shared his with you? Further, did Jesus say the share was equal? Note 2 Thesselonians 2:14 says that Christ's brothers share in his glory; yet none of them can possibly claim equality with him (Jesus), much less claim the glory of God's firstborn (2 Pet 5:10b). Similarly, the Son "sharing" his own glory with the Father, does not mean he (Jesus) possessed the glory of the uncreated Almighty or that Jesus' glory was in equality to God's.
In 2 Thess 2:14, the glory talked about relates to his disciples being sanctified and does require equality in that sense. The glory in John 17:5 also requires equality of some sort.
Glory that they shared before creation; that’s equality. Then, through the incarnation, Jesus does subordinate his human nature to the Father because that is what a perfect human does, but only God can do something perfectly.onewithhim wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 2:36 pmFinal thought on #1: John 17:1-5 shows that Jesus is not equal to God because he ASKS God to give him glory. He is subordinate to his Father and relies on Him for everything.
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Re: Jesus Christ has a God that he worships
Post #302. How can Jesus pour out the spirit of God on his disciples (John 20:22) if he isn't God?
The Father sends the H.S. and Jesus disperses it: "The helper, the Holy Spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things..." (John 14:26)
Jesus said: "I will request the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, the spirit of truth..." (John 14:26)[/quote]
The spirit is poured out by God (Joel 2:28), if all we had were these 3 verses, then we’d have the idea that only God actually breathes it out on people. Then we have John 20:22 where Jesus does it. If your view were correct, it would say that Jesus prayed and God sent the spirit on. Verse 21 would say that as the Father sent me, the Father is sending you. No, Jesus claims that he is doing it. With the other verses, this means he is saying he is not only equal to the Father, but one with the Father; they are God.
Jesus can pour out the HS because he has asked the Father to allow him to do that. The H.S. is from the Father and Jesus handles it. This was brought out by Martha at John 11:22: "And yet at present I know that as many things as you ASK God for, God will give you"onewithhim wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 2:36 pmJesus can pour out the HS because he has asked the Father to allow him to do that. The H.S. is from the Father and Jesus handles it. This was brought out by Martha at John 11:22: "And yet at present I know that as many things as you ASK God for, God will give you"
The Father sends the H.S. and Jesus disperses it: "The helper, the Holy Spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things..." (John 14:26)
Jesus said: "I will request the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, the spirit of truth..." (John 14:26)[/quote]
The spirit is poured out by God (Joel 2:28), if all we had were these 3 verses, then we’d have the idea that only God actually breathes it out on people. Then we have John 20:22 where Jesus does it. If your view were correct, it would say that Jesus prayed and God sent the spirit on. Verse 21 would say that as the Father sent me, the Father is sending you. No, Jesus claims that he is doing it. With the other verses, this means he is saying he is not only equal to the Father, but one with the Father; they are God.
