Jesus Christ has a God that he worships

[onewithhim]

Jesus said that we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him. He stated clearly that his Father was the only true God (John 17:3); he didn't say that we are the only true God. In many places in the Scriptures he calls the Father "my God."

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3, KJV)

"Jesus saith unto her [Mary], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father, but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. (John 20:17, KJV)

"At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34, KJV)

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall no more go out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, KJV)

I think Jesus wants us to recognize that his Father, Jehovah, is God, and he is God's Son. (John 10:36) What do you make of this?

[The Tanager]

3. How can Jesus give the right to forgive sins (John 20:23) if he isn't God?

Jesus was GIVEN the assignment to judge. "For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is." (John 5:27) Jesus got the power to judge from God. He doesn't have to be God to judge.

I talked about forgiving sins, not judging. But even if the Father gave Jesus the authority, Jesus is giving others that authority, talking God’s role for himself. And there is a difference from his disciples. In Acts 2:38, Peter talks about forgiving sins in the name of Jesus, while Jesus just forgives sins rather than (if it was the same kind of thing) forgiving in the name of the Father. Jesus owns this power as his own, not like the disciples who admit it is in the power of another.

[The Tanager]

4. Why does Thomas call Jesus "my God" (John 20:28) and Jesus not correct him?

Because Jesus is Thomas' God. He's just not his AMLIGHTY God.

The disciples didn’t make distinctions between Almighty God and lesser Gods; they believed in one God and Thomas calls Jesus that.

[The Tanager]

5. Why does quoting the first line of a Psalm equate to a claim that "I'm not God"?

Nothing in response

[The Tanager]

6. How can Jesus take titles reserved for God (first and last, the Ancient of Days), if he isn't God?

Jesus identified as the "first and the last" from the DEAD and not in the absolute (ie "first and last" of everything).

The Ancient of Days is YHWH The Father not Jesus.

The author of Revelation (1:17-18, 2:8, 22:13) doesn’t say Jesus is the first and the last from the dead. He says he is the first and the last. He then says he was dead, resurrected, and is alive forever, but that’s not the reason given for being the first and the last. This is more clear in that the last verse that uses this title (22:13) says nothing about him being dead and alive again. These are clearly two different thoughts, not Jesus is X because of Y.

And the author places Jesus as the one like the son of man that Daniel identifies with the Ancient of Days, so the author is claiming Jesus is the Ancient of Days.

[The Tanager]

7. How can Jesus receive worship, praise, honor, glory, and power with God, if he isn't God?

Because any "worship"*, praise, honor, glory, and power Jesus recieves is due to his position as the Son of God (inferior to Almighty God, the Father).

* in the bible the original term rendered worship in most bible can be rendered hommage (respectful sign of submission)

There is a clear difference between worship, which is reserved only for God (Exod 20:5 and all over the Hebrew scripture) and paying respect to various humans. Rev 5:11-14 has every creature worshiping the one on the throne and the lamb with glory, something God doesn’t share with another. This is sharing the same glory. If your view was correct, this would be a scene where they are just worshiping the one on the throne and not the Lamb, but they aren’t.

[The Tanager]

8. Why does Jesus double down when accused of blasphemy (John 10:36)?

Jesus didn't double down in the false accusation that he claimed equality with YHWH ALMIGHTY GOD the Father. He "doubles down" on his original claim...
JOHN 10:36b

"... I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"

Why isn’t that part of Jesus claiming to be God?

[JehovahsWitness]

4. Why does Thomas call Jesus "my God" (John 20:28) and Jesus not correct him?

Because Jesus is Thomas' God. He's just not his AMLIGHTY God.

The disciples didn’t make distinctions between Almighty God and lesser Gods; they believed in one God and Thomas calls Jesus that.

Since Jesus believed and taught about "lesser" gods , and he pointed this out in Jewish scripture, and Thomas was a disciple of Jesus, I think it fair to conclude they most certainly DID make the distinction between Almighty God and lesser Gods.

[JehovahsWitness]

6. How can Jesus take titles reserved for God (first and last, the Ancient of Days), if he isn't God?

Jesus identified as the "first and the last" from the DEAD and not in the absolute (ie "first and last" of everything).

The Ancient of Days is YHWH The Father not Jesus.

The author of Revelation (1:17-18, 2:8, 22:13) doesn’t say Jesus is the first and the last from the dead. He says he is the first and the last. He then says he was dead, resurrected, and is alive forever, but that’s not the reason given for being the first and the last.

Whatever the reason for the title, it could not be refering to Almighty God Jehovah because the speaker goes on to say of himself "I became dead" but Almighy God cannot die.

The first and the last of Rev 22:12-15 (and Isaiah 44:6-28) is JEHOVAH/ YHWH*.

* We can deduce this because obviously there are different speakers in Revelation Chapter 22. The challenge then is to deduce who is saying what. Verses v8-10 John identifies himself, v16:20 Jesus, but the speaker in between, namely v11-15, goes unidentified. With no modifiers to the titles we can reasonably assume THIS speaker is the "Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end" in the absolute sense; which thus becomes only applicable go YHWH The Almighty.

JW


Further reading : SFBT
http://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogs ... ation.html






Who is the speaker if Revelation 22:12?

Onewithim
viewtopic.php?p=864572#p864572
tigger2
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 58#p993258

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[JehovahsWitness]

There is a clear difference between worship, which is reserved only for God (Exodus 20:5 and all over the Hebrew scripture) and paying respect to various humans.

Yes that is the point. While the original Greek word covers both distinct and different actions, the job of the translator is to convey that distinction in the target language so as to avoid confusion.


WORSHIP or HOMAGE?

Many people are not aware that the word "worship" has not always refered exclusively to an act of devotion offered to God. In English its archaic meaning is simply a show of respect (hommage) in recongnition of a persons position. Indeed the greek word proskyneo essentially means ( obeisance/ pay homage, bow down).

In bible times the above acts of homage, bowing down even to the ground, were not unusual and were not viewed as an act of religious devotion. Several bible passages use the word in this sense (see Matthew 2:11;Matthew 14:33 ; Matthew 28:9; Matthew 28:17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38) . Throughout Jesus' life there were people that showed such reverential recognition of royalty and position by bowing down before him and these were entirely appropriate. As one bible commentator points out regarding Matthew 28:17...

Barnes' Notes on the BibleAnd worshipped him - See the notes at Matthew 8:2. In this place the word "worship" seems to denote the homage due to the Messiah risen from the dead

That said, since this historic meaning of the word "worship" is no longer of general knowledge and usage, and since worship in terms of acts of devotion rendered to God alone is biblically the exclusive reserve of the Creator (see Mat 4:10; Rev 5:11), some bible translators have made the distinction clear by either leaving the word proskyneo with its original meaning (bow down) or render it as "homage" or "obeisance".

MATTHEW 14:33 - Darby Bible Translation

But those in the ship came and did homage to him, saying, Truly thou art
God's Son.

LUKE 24:52 - Young's Literal Translation

and they, having bowed ("proskyneo") before him, did turn back to Jerusalem with great joy,

JOHN 9:38 - New World Translation

He said: do put faith in him, Lord. And he did obeisance to him.

CONCLUSION: Throughout Jesus life, individuals and groups paid "homage" or did "obeisance" to him, bowing down ("proskyneo") before him. These acts, while not acts of religious adoration but acts of profound respect as is fitting towards a person of high esteem.

[JehovahsWitness]

Hebrews doesn’t say he is a representative but an exact representation, an engraving, a mould, a copy of sorts.

But not the original. A copy (even a exact copy) cannot be the original and a copy (even an exact copy )is by definition predated and inferior to the original if only that it is not the originator. In other words, without the original you cannot have a copy but the original can stand alone and does not derive its existence from that which comes after.

JOHN 5:19

Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing.+ For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner

JW