Jesus Christ has a God that he worships

[onewithhim]

Jesus said that we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him. He stated clearly that his Father was the only true God (John 17:3); he didn't say that we are the only true God. In many places in the Scriptures he calls the Father "my God."

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3, KJV)

"Jesus saith unto her [Mary], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father, but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. (John 20:17, KJV)

"At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34, KJV)

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall no more go out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, KJV)

I think Jesus wants us to recognize that his Father, Jehovah, is God, and he is God's Son. (John 10:36) What do you make of this?

[The Tanager]

1. How can Jesus share in the glory God had and has (John 17:5) if God shares His glory with no one (Isa 42:8)?

But not the original. A copy (even a exact copy) cannot be the original and a copy (even an exact copy )is by definition predated and inferior to the original if only that it is not the originator. In other words, without the original you cannot have a copy but the original can stand alone and does not derive its existence from that which comes after.

First, Hebrews 1 calls Jesus the radiance of God’s glory, which means part of the glory itself, the light that is the glory that accompanied the Israelites’ Exodus; not a reflection of that glory. Second, it calls Jesus an exact representation of his being, not someone that represents God to people. Third, I didn’t mean “copy” in the copy machine kind of sense. Engravings aren’t copies of other things and neither are moulds.

4. Why does Thomas call Jesus "my God" (John 20:28) and Jesus not correct him?

Since Jesus believed and taught about "lesser" gods , and he pointed this out in scripture, and Thomas was a disciple of Jesus, I think it fair to conclude they most certainly DID make the distinction between Almighty God and lesser Gods.

Are you talking about John 10 or a different passage?

6. How can Jesus take titles reserved for God (first and last, the Ancient of Days), if he isn't God?

Whatever the reason for the title, it could not be refering to Almighty God Jehovah because the speaker goes on to say of himself "I became dead" but Almighy God cannot die.

God that takes on human flesh, can have that human flesh die without that ending his existence.

The first and the last of Rev 22:12-15 (and Isaiah 44:6-28) is JEHOVAH/ YHWH*.

* We can deduce this because obviously there are different speakers in Revelation Chapter 22. The challenge then is to deduce who is saying what. Verses v8-10 John identifies himself, v16:20 Jesus, but the speaker in between, namely v11-15, goes unidentified. With no modifiers to the titles we can reasonably assume THIS speaker is the "Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end" in the absolute sense; which thus becomes only applicable go YHWH The Almighty.

Verses 10-15 don't go unidentified. It flows right into verse 16 where it is clear that Jesus sent the angel to give his message in his name. Even more so, John in v. 20 says “Come, Lord Jesus” which directly refers to the two previous “Look, I am coming soon!” claims in v. 7 and v. 12, the latter of these which is obviously connected to the One claiming to be the Alpha and the Omega.

7. How can Jesus receive worship, praise, honor, glory, and power with God, if he isn't God?

Yes that is the point. While the original Greek word covers both distinct and different actions, the job of the translator is to convey that distinction in the target language so as to avoid confusion.

Yes, but too often (on all sides) translators (and those who read translations) can read their theology into the translation. Rev 5:11-14 involves one act of worship to both the One on the throne and the Lamb. It’s not two different acts that one can separate as ‘worship’ to one and a lesser ‘hommage’ to the other. So, however you translate/read this, you need to read it as saying the same kind of thing about both.

[TheHolyGhost]

8. Why does Jesus double down when accused of blasphemy (John 10:36)?

Jesus didn't double down in the false accusation that he claimed equality with YHWH ALMIGHTY GOD the Father. He "doubles down" on his original claim...
JOHN 10:36b

"... I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"

Why isn’t that part of Jesus claiming to be God?

Jesus didn't need to claim He was God. It was God that claimed He was God.

[JehovahsWitness]

...Hebrews 1 calls Jesus the radiance of God’s glory, which means part of the glory itself...

Of course all glory comes from God. This does not mean that the copy or the replica is equal to the original or the source. The light bulb cannot be equal to the electcity plant that produced its electricity.

[JehovahsWitness]

God that takes on human flesh, can have that human flesh die without that ending his existence.

There is no scripture that states Almighty God the Father takes on human flesh nor of flesh dying or surviving death so the point is irrelevant or at the very most circular.

[TheHolyGhost]

...Hebrews 1 calls Jesus the radiance of God’s glory, which means part of the glory itself...

The light bulb cannot be equal to the electcity plant that produced its electricity.

The light bulb gives electricity it's value.

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes, but too often (on all sides) translators (and those who read translations) can read their theology into the translation.

Exactly and most translators are trinitarians. Alternative renditions are often equally if not more, valid.

Rev 5:11-14 involves one act of worship to both the One on the throne and the Lamb. ...

That's a very trinitarian view. The scripture only says "and they worshipped" any statement of who they worshipped (YHWH the Father, Jesus , standing next to him, or both ) is simply protecting one's theological bias.

[TheHolyGhost]

Yes, but too often (on all sides) translators (and those who read translations) can read their theology into the translation.

Exactly and most translators are trinitarians. Alternative renditions are often equally if not more, valid.

My translator is the Spirit of truth.

[The Tanager]

1. How can Jesus share in the glory God had and has (John 17:5) if God shares His glory with no one (Isa 42:8)?

Of course all glory comes from God. This does not mean that the copy or the replica is equal to the original or the source. The light bulb cannot be equal to the electcity plant that produced its electricity.

When Israel set out from Egypt, God appeared in cloud and fire/light (Exod 13:20-22), it looked like a consuming fire on Mount Sinai (Exod 24:17), when Moses comes down from the mount his face was radiant from this glory and he had to veil his face (34:29-35), the cloud and light fills the tabernacle (Exod 40), Isaiah talks about it (Isa 4:5), and so does Ezekiel (Ezek 1, 10, others). This is the imagery called upon by the writer of Hebrews.

The author describes Jesus as the actual radiance, the light itself, not some copy or replica. He isn't described, like Moses, as being radiant because of the light, but being the radiance itself. The author doesn’t say God is the electricity and Jesus the radiant light the electricity produces. That's not the author's analogy; it's your theological analogy. God is the light itself and Jesus is the light itself. They share that glory.


4. Why does Thomas call Jesus "my God" (John 20:28) and Jesus not correct him?

I would truly appreciate an answer to my question to you here; maybe you missed it in the last post. When you say Jesus taught about lesser gods, are you talking about John 10 or a different passage?


6. How can Jesus take titles reserved for God (first and last, the Ancient of Days), if he isn't God?

There is no scripture that states Almighty God the Father takes on human flesh

First off, you dropped the critique I was responding to. There isn’t anything logically impossible about God taking on human flesh. So, if God took on human flesh, couldn’t that human flesh die without that ending God’s existence? If so, that defeats your critique that “Almighty God cannot die” because trinitarians aren’t claiming God as Almighty God died.

Second, John 1:1, 14 does say the Word was God (not a lesser god) and that this Word, i.e., God became flesh. The Christians didn’t distinguish between God and lesser Gods; they weren’t henotheists. If you want to reiterate that Jesus did teach this, I need to know what passage(s) you are referring to for us to move this part of the discussion forward.

nor of flesh dying or surviving death so the point is irrelevant or at the very most circular.

Do you not think that Jesus had a human body and that he died on the cross?

And do you have no response to the further points I made about how Rev 22:10-15 is very clearly identified with Jesus contextually?


7. How can Jesus receive worship, praise, honor, glory, and power with God, if he isn't God?

Exactly and most translators are trinitarians. Alternative renditions are often equally if not more, valid.

If you have a case for it being more valid, then give it. That the translation should be non-trinitarian is begging the question to protect one’s theological bias. That the translation must be trinitarian would be the same.

But that’s clearly not my approach. I’m making a linguistic point. The exact same act of worship in the exact same moment in Rev 5:11-14 is extended to two Persons, the One on the throne and the Lamb.

That's a very trinitarian view. The scripture only says "and they worshipped" any statement of who they worshipped (YHWH the Father, Jesus , standing next to him, or both ) is simply protecting one's theological bias.

No, the scripture explicitly says “To (1) him who sits on the throne and to (2) the Lamb” then comes the worship part “be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”. It explicitly says who they are worshiping. And they are worshiped in the exact same moment in exactly the same way. If they were offering two different kinds of worship, then it would be linguistically and chronologically distinguished. We worship the One on the throne and we pay lesser homage, lesser glory, etc. to the Lamb. Something like that.

This conclusion is reached linguistically, not theologically. This verse alone gives us no reason to believe in a trinity because the Spirit isn’t mentioned, so that is clearly not a theological bias being brought in. To simply dismiss this as a very trinitarian view is bringing in your theological bias to beg the question.

[onewithhim]

8. Why does Jesus double down when accused of blasphemy (John 10:36)?

Jesus didn't double down in the false accusation that he claimed equality with YHWH ALMIGHTY GOD the Father. He "doubles down" on his original claim...
JOHN 10:36b

"... I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"

Why isn’t that part of Jesus claiming to be God?

Jesus didn't need to claim He was God. It was God that claimed He was God.

Not so. God said that He, Jehovah, alone was God, the "Most High." Over everybody. (Psalm 83:18,KJV)

[onewithhim]

That would be great except that even after his return to an elevated position in heaven as a mighty spirit Jesus is STILL shown to be subordinate to the Father.

Which STILL makes him no less God than he was before the events of Phil 2:5-9.

I do not know what this retort means. My point is, if Jesus was inferior power , rank and authority while a human, scripture indicates even after his return to heaven and elevation to a superior position, he STILL did not attain equality in rank, power, age or authority to Almight God The Father.

If you are not proposing the risen Christ is currently equal in rank, power, age or authority to Almight God The Father, then we have no issue.

Indeed, I Corinthians 11:3 shows once again that Jesus is subordinate to God, Jehovah, and this was after he returned to heaven.