It would seem that the True Christian® believes that salvation can only be found through Jesus Christ. What if he didn't exist?
To the best of my knowledge there is no contemporary accounts of the life of the man known as Jesus. Nor is there any reference to events that allegedly occured around the time of his supposed life. This despite the fact that the Romans and Greeks were both avid chronicle keepers.
In all the writings extant from that time Jesus is not mentioned. Also not mentioned - and you would think that such an event would be rather newsworthy - is the so called 'Massacre of the Innocents" - Herod's attempt to circumvent a rumour that a king had been born. No reference to major earthquakes, graves opening, the sun turning dark and so on.
Perhaps the whole thing was a myth. The similarities between the Christ story and others (e.g. Mithra) are startling. Paul, an educated man, would have been familiar with these and it is possible that the whole Christ story was a clever way for him to spread his favourite doctrine.
So True Christians®, what real evidence is there of the existence of said man?
Hint: the bible does not count as evidence - I would like to know of contemporary writings.
regards
Bernie
Did he known as 'Jesus Christ' exist?
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agnostic_pilgrim
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Post #2
ANCIENT HISTORIANS:
Tacitus:
Cornelius Tacitus (ca. AD 55-120) was a roman historian who lived through the reigns of over a half-dozen Roman emperors. He has been called the "greatest historian" of ancient Rome, an individual generally acknowledged among scholars for his moral, "integrity and essential goodness." He is best knows for two works-- the Annals and the Histories. The Annals cover the period from Augustus' death in AD 14 to that of Nero in AD 68.
This comes from the Annals, written about AD 115.
"...Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate..."
Suetonius:
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas was the chief secretary of Emperor Hadiran (AD 117-138) who had access to the imperial records.
This comes from the section on emperor Claudius (AD 41-54).
"...Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the city..."
This second reference is to the Christians who were tortured by emperor Nero.
"...After the great fire at Rome...punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious beliefs..."
Josephus:
Faluis Josephus was a Jewish historian born in AD 37 or 38 and died in AD 97. After the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, he moved to Rome, where he became the court historian for emperor Vespasian. He is best known for the Antiquities written around AD 90-95. As his works are considered trivial, I have provided the two translations. I will also provide a brief commentary on these for some help.
"...Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats... He was (the) Christ... he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him..."
Since Josephus was a Jew, it in not likely that he would have written about Jesus in this way. Origin informs us that Josephus did not believe Jesus to be the Messiah. Yet, leading scholars on the works of Josephus have testified that this portion is written in the style of this Jewish historian.
In 1972 Professor Scholomo Pines of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem released the results of a study on an Arabic manuscript containing Josephus' statement about Jesus. It includes a different and briefer rendering of the entire passage, including changes in the key words.
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS:
Pliny the Younger:
Pliny the Younger was a Roman author and administrator who served as the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. He was the nephew and adopted son of a natural historian known as Pliny the Elder.
This is an excerpt from a letter he wrote to Emperor Trajan.
"The (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they would be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food-- but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."
OTHER JEWISH SOURCES:
The Talmud:
The Jews handed down a large amount of oral tradition from generation to generation. This material was organized according to subject matter by Rabbi Akiba before his death in AD 135. His work was then revised by his student, Rabbi Meir. The project was completed about Ad 200 by Rabbi Judah and is known as the Mishnah. Ancient commentary on the Mishnah was called the Gemaras. The combination of the Mishnah and the Gemaras form the Talmud.
It would be expected that the most reliable information about Jesus from the Talmud would come from the earliest period of compilation--AD 70-200, known as the Tannaitic period. This quotation is found in Sanhedrin 43a, dating from this early period.
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried. 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on hiss behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"
OTHER GENTILE SOURCES:
Lucian:
Lucian was a second century Greek satirist. He spoke rather derisively of Jesus and early Christians. (I think he would be a favorite among this website.)
This is one of his critiques against Christians.
"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day--- the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account... You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, which the result they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."
Mara Bar-Serapion:
The British Museum owns the manuscript of a letter written sometime between the late first and third centuries AD. Its author was a Syrian named Mara Bar-Serapion, who was writing from prison to motivate his son Serapion to emulate wise teachers of the past.
"What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given."
Tacitus:
Cornelius Tacitus (ca. AD 55-120) was a roman historian who lived through the reigns of over a half-dozen Roman emperors. He has been called the "greatest historian" of ancient Rome, an individual generally acknowledged among scholars for his moral, "integrity and essential goodness." He is best knows for two works-- the Annals and the Histories. The Annals cover the period from Augustus' death in AD 14 to that of Nero in AD 68.
This comes from the Annals, written about AD 115.
"...Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate..."
Suetonius:
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas was the chief secretary of Emperor Hadiran (AD 117-138) who had access to the imperial records.
This comes from the section on emperor Claudius (AD 41-54).
"...Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the city..."
This second reference is to the Christians who were tortured by emperor Nero.
"...After the great fire at Rome...punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious beliefs..."
Josephus:
Faluis Josephus was a Jewish historian born in AD 37 or 38 and died in AD 97. After the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, he moved to Rome, where he became the court historian for emperor Vespasian. He is best known for the Antiquities written around AD 90-95. As his works are considered trivial, I have provided the two translations. I will also provide a brief commentary on these for some help.
"...Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats... He was (the) Christ... he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him..."
Since Josephus was a Jew, it in not likely that he would have written about Jesus in this way. Origin informs us that Josephus did not believe Jesus to be the Messiah. Yet, leading scholars on the works of Josephus have testified that this portion is written in the style of this Jewish historian.
In 1972 Professor Scholomo Pines of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem released the results of a study on an Arabic manuscript containing Josephus' statement about Jesus. It includes a different and briefer rendering of the entire passage, including changes in the key words.
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS:
Pliny the Younger:
Pliny the Younger was a Roman author and administrator who served as the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. He was the nephew and adopted son of a natural historian known as Pliny the Elder.
This is an excerpt from a letter he wrote to Emperor Trajan.
"The (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they would be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food-- but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."
OTHER JEWISH SOURCES:
The Talmud:
The Jews handed down a large amount of oral tradition from generation to generation. This material was organized according to subject matter by Rabbi Akiba before his death in AD 135. His work was then revised by his student, Rabbi Meir. The project was completed about Ad 200 by Rabbi Judah and is known as the Mishnah. Ancient commentary on the Mishnah was called the Gemaras. The combination of the Mishnah and the Gemaras form the Talmud.
It would be expected that the most reliable information about Jesus from the Talmud would come from the earliest period of compilation--AD 70-200, known as the Tannaitic period. This quotation is found in Sanhedrin 43a, dating from this early period.
"On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried. 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on hiss behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"
OTHER GENTILE SOURCES:
Lucian:
Lucian was a second century Greek satirist. He spoke rather derisively of Jesus and early Christians. (I think he would be a favorite among this website.)
This is one of his critiques against Christians.
"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day--- the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account... You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, which the result they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."
Mara Bar-Serapion:
The British Museum owns the manuscript of a letter written sometime between the late first and third centuries AD. Its author was a Syrian named Mara Bar-Serapion, who was writing from prison to motivate his son Serapion to emulate wise teachers of the past.
"What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given."
Post #3
It's only natural that what started as a Jewish fringe cult from a common criminal would not have much in the way of contemporary publication. I am certain there are no contemporary (in the strictest use of the term) accounts, but there are some good secondary sources regularly cited by apologists.
When I searched for them, I found this MS Encarta article:
The principal sources of information concerning Jesus' life are the Gospels, written in the latter half of the 1st century as the generation that had known Jesus firsthand began to die. The Epistles of Saint Paul and the Acts of the Apostles also contain information about Jesus. The scantiness of additional source material and the theological nature of biblical records caused some 19th-century biblical scholars to doubt his historical existence. Others, interpreting the available sources in a variety of ways, produced biographies of Jesus in which his life was purged of all supernatural elements. Today, scholars generally agree that Jesus was a historical figure whose existence is authenticated both by Christian writers and by several Roman and Jewish historians.1
Unfortunately, Encarta does not list "several Roman and Jewish historians".
As for the sources I mentioned earlier:
The Romanized Jew Josephus, who died in 98 AD mentions..
About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders. [Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2]
Tacitus stated (died 117AD):
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular
Though I will admit some people may have been misguided about the divinity of Christ, I, an agnostic, have no doubt in my mind the story came from a germ that was true, and not wholly fabricated.
1 "Jesus Christ," Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2004
http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
© 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
When I searched for them, I found this MS Encarta article:
The principal sources of information concerning Jesus' life are the Gospels, written in the latter half of the 1st century as the generation that had known Jesus firsthand began to die. The Epistles of Saint Paul and the Acts of the Apostles also contain information about Jesus. The scantiness of additional source material and the theological nature of biblical records caused some 19th-century biblical scholars to doubt his historical existence. Others, interpreting the available sources in a variety of ways, produced biographies of Jesus in which his life was purged of all supernatural elements. Today, scholars generally agree that Jesus was a historical figure whose existence is authenticated both by Christian writers and by several Roman and Jewish historians.1
Unfortunately, Encarta does not list "several Roman and Jewish historians".
As for the sources I mentioned earlier:
The Romanized Jew Josephus, who died in 98 AD mentions..
About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders. [Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2]
Tacitus stated (died 117AD):
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular
Though I will admit some people may have been misguided about the divinity of Christ, I, an agnostic, have no doubt in my mind the story came from a germ that was true, and not wholly fabricated.
1 "Jesus Christ," Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2004
http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
© 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
Last edited by Corvus on Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
<i>'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'</i>
-John Keats, Ode on a Grecian Urn.
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'</i>
-John Keats, Ode on a Grecian Urn.
Post #4
Looks like Agnostic Pilgrim just beat me to it. Oh well. I found some of those other sources but some don't exactly establish Christ as an historical figure and rather just allude to him as the deity of a cult.
<i>'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'</i>
-John Keats, Ode on a Grecian Urn.
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'</i>
-John Keats, Ode on a Grecian Urn.
Post #5
not really contemorary...80+ years after the alleged execution....howeveragnostic_pilgrim wrote: Tacitus:
Cornelius Tacitus (ca. AD 55-120)
This comes from the Annals, written about AD 115.
As you state, Tacitus is considered the most reliable scholar of his time. He had access to Roman archives, and his only mistakes arose from occasional reliance on secondary sources. In this case he could have been using either Christian sources or Roman archives. Christian accounts were readily available while centuries of inquiry have turned up no Roman documents related to a historical Jesus. It would appear his information must have been derived from Christian sources. Thus it offers no independent evidence for the existence of a historical Jesus.
again - not contemporary - hearsay is not evidence re, the existence of christ and the torture of christians does not prove the existence of christ - only christiansagnostic_pilgrim wrote: Suetonius:
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas was the chief secretary of Emperor Hadiran (AD 117-138) who had access to the imperial records.
this is widely believed to be an interpolation to Josephus'' work - i.e. added some several hundred years later. I will get back to you with the references for this.agnostic_pilgrim wrote: Josephus:
Faluis Josephus was a Jewish historian born in AD 37 or 38 and died in AD 97.
"...Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats... He was (the) Christ... he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him..."
proof of the existence of christians is not proof of the existence of Jesusagnostic_pilgrim wrote: GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS:
Pliny the Younger:
Pliny the Younger was a Roman author and administrator who served as the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. He was the nephew and adopted son of a natural historian known as Pliny the Elder.
i'm glad you raised this one - I read a very good review by a jewish author recently - I bookmarked it but lost it when I reinstalled s/w. I'll try to track it down. It really was very interersting reading.agnostic_pilgrim wrote: OTHER JEWISH SOURCES:
The Talmud:
The Jews handed down a large amount of oral tradition from generation to generation. ...The combination of the Mishnah and the Gemaras form the Talmud.
again - hearsay and not contemporaryagnostic_pilgrim wrote: OTHER GENTILE SOURCES:
Lucian:
Lucian was a second century Greek satirist. He spoke rather derisively of Jesus and early Christians. (I think he would be a favorite among this website.)
Thank you for sharing these M. Pilgrim. They are very well known and all have been roundly debunked by minds much more acute than mine.
regards
Bernie
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nikolayevich
- Scholar
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- Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:51 pm
- Location: Vancouver
Post #6
I think the best response to your question about the veracity of an historical Christ is to address your concerns over what constitutes reliable evidence for the existence of ANYONE in the past.
There are numerous figures who lived many centuries ago, left their mark on society (one form of corroboration for their existence, though not proof in itself), are written of in history books around the world and are fairly uncontested in terms of existence, in academic circles. Because we have little information from the past, especially when compared to what we have even in our homes in the present day, we have to do our best with what we do have, to assess for ourselves the most likely events of the past. This is the work of the historian. If one is seeking total corroboration for any past individual though, you could be disappointed to learn there isn't much evidence for many of your own ancestors. It's certainly no reason to doubt their existence, however, in the case of Jesus Christ, there are important points to make in the process.
The following list is eye opening. You'll see why:
* Tacitus: 55-117 AD, wrote "The Annals of Rome", as mentioned, yet the earliest copy is from about 850 AD (over 700 years later). His existence is not questioned. (we're speaking in broad terms with each of these- some people will deny even the most reasonable positions)
* Homer: earlier than 700 BC, the earliest copy of the "Illiad" is the first to second century AD (800-900 years later). His existence is generally accepted.
* Sidhartha (Buddha) lived approximately 563-483 BC but the earliest biography in the "Pali Canon", the authenticity of which is now debated, was translated in about 80 BC (a separation of 400 years). His existence is not questioned.
* Mohammed: 570-632 AD, the first external corroboration for the Qur'an, according to livingislam.org, is "roughly 750-850... Christians... under Muslim rule began to compose theological works... to counter the religious challenges of Islam." and the oldest extant "Qur'an" is approximately from the 9th century (around 200 years later). His existence is not questioned.
* Jesus: 0(+/-) - 33 AD (+/-), writings of the "New Testament" are assumed to have been substantially complete (200,000+/- words) by around 70AD, less than a half-century after the ascension of Christ, with the oldest extant manuscripts being dated between 85-200AD by scholars (50-170 years after the ministry of Christ). In other words, out of all of the above, the New Testament writings are the ONLY writings, where even the copies (i.e. not originals as they were even earlier) could have been circulated amongst eye witnesses to the Crucifixion.
What if He DOES exist?
* most dates within comparison (+/-3) to secular source history.com.
There are numerous figures who lived many centuries ago, left their mark on society (one form of corroboration for their existence, though not proof in itself), are written of in history books around the world and are fairly uncontested in terms of existence, in academic circles. Because we have little information from the past, especially when compared to what we have even in our homes in the present day, we have to do our best with what we do have, to assess for ourselves the most likely events of the past. This is the work of the historian. If one is seeking total corroboration for any past individual though, you could be disappointed to learn there isn't much evidence for many of your own ancestors. It's certainly no reason to doubt their existence, however, in the case of Jesus Christ, there are important points to make in the process.
The following list is eye opening. You'll see why:
* Tacitus: 55-117 AD, wrote "The Annals of Rome", as mentioned, yet the earliest copy is from about 850 AD (over 700 years later). His existence is not questioned. (we're speaking in broad terms with each of these- some people will deny even the most reasonable positions)
* Homer: earlier than 700 BC, the earliest copy of the "Illiad" is the first to second century AD (800-900 years later). His existence is generally accepted.
* Sidhartha (Buddha) lived approximately 563-483 BC but the earliest biography in the "Pali Canon", the authenticity of which is now debated, was translated in about 80 BC (a separation of 400 years). His existence is not questioned.
* Mohammed: 570-632 AD, the first external corroboration for the Qur'an, according to livingislam.org, is "roughly 750-850... Christians... under Muslim rule began to compose theological works... to counter the religious challenges of Islam." and the oldest extant "Qur'an" is approximately from the 9th century (around 200 years later). His existence is not questioned.
* Jesus: 0(+/-) - 33 AD (+/-), writings of the "New Testament" are assumed to have been substantially complete (200,000+/- words) by around 70AD, less than a half-century after the ascension of Christ, with the oldest extant manuscripts being dated between 85-200AD by scholars (50-170 years after the ministry of Christ). In other words, out of all of the above, the New Testament writings are the ONLY writings, where even the copies (i.e. not originals as they were even earlier) could have been circulated amongst eye witnesses to the Crucifixion.
One can't categorically denounce evidence without good reason. The Bible does count as evidence to His existence, since it mentions "Jesus" nearly a thousand times, and is an ancient document which is contemporaneous with His life. If you were to stumble upon a text tomorrow, and in it the author wrote, "The brown-haired William lived a long life", would you not think, "Who was this William character?" rather than, "I don't believe William existed!"? You can say that you don't like the evidence. You can say that the stories told in the Bible are not true, just as you can say that you don't believe William had brown hair. But you cannot without any reason (positive proof) declare it doesn't serve for historical purposes and that its characters did not exist. You must have positive evidence to the contrary, not negative evidence to its support.bernee51 wrote:Hint: the bible does not count as evidence - I would like to know of contemporary writings.
What if He DOES exist?
* most dates within comparison (+/-3) to secular source history.com.
Post #7
We can discuss the existence or otherwise of these folk if you wish.nikolayevich wrote:
* Tacitus:
* Homer:
* Sidhartha (Buddha)
* Mohammed: 570-632 AD,
on what scholarship do you base these assertions. I was of the understanding that the Gospels (let alone the entire "New Testament" dated from earlt in the first century CE. Are you familiar with these writingsnikolayevich wrote: * Jesus: 0(+/-) - 33 AD (+/-), writings of the "New Testament" are assumed to have been substantially complete (200,000+/- words) by around 70AD,
bernee51 wrote:Hint: the bible does not count as evidence - I would like to know of contemporary writings.
bias is good reason AFAIACnikolayevich wrote: One can't categorically denounce evidence without good reason.
Gollum is mentioned many times in LOTR - do you believe he exists?nikolayevich wrote: The Bible does count as evidence to His existence, since it mentions "Jesus" nearly a thousand times,
depends if it was a work of fiction or a chronicle of fact.nikolayevich wrote: . If you were to stumble upon a text tomorrow, and in it the author wrote, "The brown-haired William lived a long life", would you not think, "Who was this William character?"
the bible, even the NT is self contradictory - which version of the Resurection do you believe? Why should I make the assumption that is is fact when nothing I read in it can be substantianted. Especially when it makes extraordinary claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
wouldn't make the slightest difference to me personally. The god he is claimed to be the son of does not exist therefore his existence in that context is irrelevant.nikolayevich wrote:
What if He DOES exist?
That is not to say that some of the tenets which he supposedly preached (which BTW are not unique to his teachings) are not worth aspiring to.
I do not need anyone to atone for my sins - I am not a sinner.
regards
Bernie
-
nikolayevich
- Scholar
- Posts: 312
- Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:51 pm
- Location: Vancouver
Post #8
Regarding the writings that you link to by Doherty, I have only had time to read the first portion, but yes I am familiar with this type of argumentation. What is clear from the outset is that the author makes the same logical mistake I mentioned earlier, this being arguing from negative data. He posits that silence on various issues is reason enough not to believe the accounts of the gospels. Of course he uses grander (sounding) imagery and so forth, but one of his first statements is actually false. He says, "Before Ignatius, not a single reference to Pontius Pilate, Jesus' executioner, is to be found."
As you can see by this photo of a limestone marker with his name and title on it, dated 26-37CE, this is clearly not the case. This is a commonly known discovery. There was some debate among scholars about whether Pontius Pilate himself existed, but there is less about that now for obvious reasons.
Because the author first argues from a negative evidence position, and then makes such a blatantly false statement, that enough is reason to avoid too much study of this article. However he also references the 'Q' text which causes still more skepticism from yours truly. The 'Q' text is a purely theoretical text. It is an invention if you will, and scholars use it to combat literal Biblical interpretation. It is a device, but only a pretend one.
Bias, like negative evidence does not make something wrong, anymore than a bent toward friendliness makes friendliness wrong. If it did, I would argue that the evolutionist papers I've read are wrong because the evolutionists are biased (which they are). Anyone who thinks otherwise is deceiving themselves. But I know that their bias does not mean that therefore evolution is untenable. I believe it is untenable for other reasons
I often hear people say things like, "those people are religious, so their thoughts are biased..." Therefore you can't go by what they say. It's one of the grossest misunderstandings of how the logic of taking a position works itself out.
Tolkien himself believed in God, not Gollum. Do you think he was confused by this?
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." John 16:33 NASB
As you can see by this photo of a limestone marker with his name and title on it, dated 26-37CE, this is clearly not the case. This is a commonly known discovery. There was some debate among scholars about whether Pontius Pilate himself existed, but there is less about that now for obvious reasons.
Because the author first argues from a negative evidence position, and then makes such a blatantly false statement, that enough is reason to avoid too much study of this article. However he also references the 'Q' text which causes still more skepticism from yours truly. The 'Q' text is a purely theoretical text. It is an invention if you will, and scholars use it to combat literal Biblical interpretation. It is a device, but only a pretend one.
When one has taken a side, as you have, and as I have... one has established their own judgments. You are biased, as am I. This does not mean I no longer listen to you, nor you me. It simply means we must understand what that bias or reason for belief/disbelief is. In the case of the Bible, does it have an agenda? Yes. Is it hidden, like a secret. No. The Bible was written so that man could know God, and establish peace and fellowship with Him. So that man can be healed from pain and suffering.bernee51 wrote: bias is good reason AFAIAC
Bias, like negative evidence does not make something wrong, anymore than a bent toward friendliness makes friendliness wrong. If it did, I would argue that the evolutionist papers I've read are wrong because the evolutionists are biased (which they are). Anyone who thinks otherwise is deceiving themselves. But I know that their bias does not mean that therefore evolution is untenable. I believe it is untenable for other reasons
I often hear people say things like, "those people are religious, so their thoughts are biased..." Therefore you can't go by what they say. It's one of the grossest misunderstandings of how the logic of taking a position works itself out.
No, precisely because Gollum is mentioned in what the author has marketed as a "fictional" work. The Bible claims to be the word of God, a history of mankind, a manual for health and peaceful living. It is a document containing historical narrative. This is very different from a Tolkien work.bernee51 wrote: Gollum is mentioned many times in LOTR - do you believe he exists?
Tolkien himself believed in God, not Gollum. Do you think he was confused by this?
I will be the last to point my finger to you as a sinner. I have had my own sins and stumbling blocks to deal with. My own temptations, my own guilts. The feeling of sinfulness, and belief in God come at different times for different people. Some feel their sinfulness, and it causes them to search for healing. Others find God first, and He reveals their sinfulness in time.bernee51 wrote: I do not need anyone to atone for my sins - I am not a sinner.
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." John 16:33 NASB
Post #9
I too have not read Doherty's hypotheses in their entirety- so I shall defer comment for the time being.nikolayevich wrote:Regarding the writings that you link to by Doherty, I have only had time to read the first portion...
as were the Vedantic scriptures. why is the bible anyy better than them?nikolayevich wrote: The Bible was written so that man could know
the promotion of biblical following has not lived up to the promise in the book.nikolayevich wrote: and establish peace and fellowship with Him. So that man can be healed from pain and suffering.
How much more "pain and suffering" has to occur in god's name? Remember this is the god of Abraham we are talking about. He and his followers, past and present, do not have a good track record on that front.
bernee51 wrote: Gollum is mentioned many times in LOTR - do you believe he exists?
and there are few contradictions in this fictional work.nikolayevich wrote: No, precisely because Gollum is mentioned in what the author has marketed as a "fictional" work.
as a factual account it does rather badly. I'm sure neither of us want to nor have the time to discuss all the contradictions in this alleged "world history"nikolayevich wrote: The Bible claims to be the word of God, a history of mankind, a manual for health and peaceful living.
as for 'peaceful living' - you gotta be kidding me.
all or part is 'historical narrative"?nikolayevich wrote: It is a document containing historical narrative.
oh I certainly have stumbling blocks and feelings of guilt - but 'sinfulness' is not an issue for me. Any searching for resolution of guilt that I do is in that place where it originates - my Self.nikolayevich wrote: I have had my own sins and stumbling blocks to deal with. My own temptations, my own guilts.
“Seek Him inside yourself, and learn who it is that says: “My God, my spirit, my understanding, my soul and my body. Understand the source of sorrow and joy, and love and hate, and waking though you don’t want to, and sleeping though you don’t want to, and getting angry when you don’t want to, and falling in love though you don’t want to. For if you closely investigate these things, you will find Him inside yourself.” Monoimos, Gnostic, 3rd century CE
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Xueirdna
Post #10
Basically, your definition of contemporary evidence for Christ's existenc would be that which is written during his lifetime. The Bible does not count as evidence.bernee51 wrote:So True Christians®, what real evidence is there of the existence of said man?
Hint: the bible does not count as evidence - I would like to know of contemporary writings.
So, all I really have to say is contemporary evidence of Jesus Christ by your definition does not exist.
As far as real evidence, you choose not to acknowledge their credibility, which is fine. I think your questions have been answered to the best of all our abilities.
