Dear JW,s
Was Jesus a mortal man like us?
Kind regards,
RW
Questions about Jesus for JW's
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Revelations won
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elijahpne
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Re: Questions about Jesus for JW's
Post #2[Replying to Revelations won in post #1]
The Bible at 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 NIV says about Jesus: "which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
In a commentary about 1 Timothy 6:16, the JW publication Insight Vol. 1 on the topic of "Immortality" says:
Since "he did not possess immortality before his resurrection by God" therefore, he was mortal - but again to reiterate "before his resurrection by God".
He was no ordinary mortal man though ...
For one thing, Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth but in heaven as he himself said:
He took on a human form for one reason - the salvation of sinful mankind:
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John 10:17, 18 This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my soul, in order that I may receive it again. No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again . The commandment on this I received
The Bible at 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 NIV says about Jesus: "which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
In a commentary about 1 Timothy 6:16, the JW publication Insight Vol. 1 on the topic of "Immortality" says:
How can Jesus be “the one alone having immortality”? The first one described in the Bible as rewarded with the gift of immortality is Jesus Christ. That he did not possess immortality before his resurrection by God is seen from the inspired apostle’s words at Romans 6:9: “Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more.”
Since "he did not possess immortality before his resurrection by God" therefore, he was mortal - but again to reiterate "before his resurrection by God".
He was no ordinary mortal man though ...
For one thing, Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth but in heaven as he himself said:
Additionally, he is a created being, like you and me. Colossians 1:15 KJV confirms this important fact and adds that he was the first to be so created:"For I came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." - John 6:38 KJV
Being thus created, he is not the same as God the Father, but rather the first-born son or, as the apostle Peter said: "... the Christ, the Son of the Living God". (Matthew 16:16)."Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" ."
He took on a human form for one reason - the salvation of sinful mankind:
Peace!Hebrews 2:14 NIV Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way , in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
------------------------------------
John 10:17, 18 This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my soul, in order that I may receive it again. No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again . The commandment on this I received
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2timothy316
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Re: Questions about Jesus for JW's
Post #3Yes, he was mortal. He would have to be in order to die for mankind's sins.
If Jesus didn't die or couldn't die then there was no resurrection from the dead. One that is immortal, or can't die, can't be raised to life from life...that makes no sense. If there was no resurrection from the dead, here is what the Bible says about that.
"If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised up. But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and your faith is also in vain. Moreover, we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we have given witness against God by saying that he raised up the Christ, whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone." 1 Cor 15:13-19
If Jesus didn't die or couldn't die then there was no resurrection from the dead. One that is immortal, or can't die, can't be raised to life from life...that makes no sense. If there was no resurrection from the dead, here is what the Bible says about that.
"If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised up. But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and your faith is also in vain. Moreover, we are also found to be false witnesses of God, because we have given witness against God by saying that he raised up the Christ, whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins. Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone." 1 Cor 15:13-19
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Mon Dec 23, 2024 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Revelations won
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Re: Questions about Jesus for JW's
Post #4Dear elijahpne,
I quote your response and respond accordingly:
“by elijahpne » Sun Dec 22, 2024 6:41 am
[Replying to Revelations won in post #1]
The Bible at 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 NIV says about Jesus: "which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.”
My response: According to the KJV Bible 1 Timothy 6:15 actually reads thus:
1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
It appears that you deny that Jesus the risen Lord is no0t King of kings and Lord of Lords. Do I understand your doctrine clearly?
In a commentary about 1 Timothy 6:16, the JW publication Insight Vol. 1 on the topic of "Immortality" says:
How can Jesus be “the one alone having immortality”? The first one described in the Bible as rewarded with the gift of immortality is Jesus Christ. That he did not possess immortality before his resurrection by God is seen from the inspired apostle’s words at
Romans 6:9: “Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more.”
My response:
The KJV reads thus:
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Since "he did not possess immortality before his resurrection by God" therefore, he was mortal - but again to reiterate "before his resurrection by God".
My response to the above quote:
Can you show me the Chapter and verse(s) in support of your interpretation?
He was no ordinary mortal man though ...
For one thing, Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth but in heaven as he himself said:
"For I came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." - John 6:38 KJV
Additionally, he is a created being, like you and me. Colossians 1:15 KJV confirms this important fact and adds that he was the first to be so created:
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" ."
Being thus created, he is not the same as God the Father, but rather the first-born son or, as the apostle Peter said: "... the Christ, the Son of the Living God". (Matthew 16:16).
My response:
Yes indeed he was the first born son of God in heaven. Obviously he like us had spirit bodies in heaven prior to entering mortality
As testified in:
Romans 8: 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
He took on a human form for one reason - the salvation of sinful mankind:”
My response:
I take exception to your above claim for it is shown in the following:
Revelation 21:And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Also observe the following:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him[/b]
Comment: If all the ANGELS OF GOD ARE TO WORSHIP THE SON, who is heir to all that God has, then this clearly indicates his divine nature as a clear member of the Godhead.
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
In closing I might mention that Christ himself identified himself approximately 81 times as the "son of man". I wonder how many times Christ has to repeat this identity before one can accept his word?
I quote your response and respond accordingly:
“by elijahpne » Sun Dec 22, 2024 6:41 am
[Replying to Revelations won in post #1]
The Bible at 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 NIV says about Jesus: "which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.”
My response: According to the KJV Bible 1 Timothy 6:15 actually reads thus:
1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
It appears that you deny that Jesus the risen Lord is no0t King of kings and Lord of Lords. Do I understand your doctrine clearly?
In a commentary about 1 Timothy 6:16, the JW publication Insight Vol. 1 on the topic of "Immortality" says:
How can Jesus be “the one alone having immortality”? The first one described in the Bible as rewarded with the gift of immortality is Jesus Christ. That he did not possess immortality before his resurrection by God is seen from the inspired apostle’s words at
Romans 6:9: “Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more.”
My response:
The KJV reads thus:
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Since "he did not possess immortality before his resurrection by God" therefore, he was mortal - but again to reiterate "before his resurrection by God".
My response to the above quote:
Can you show me the Chapter and verse(s) in support of your interpretation?
He was no ordinary mortal man though ...
For one thing, Jesus Christ did not begin life here on earth but in heaven as he himself said:
"For I came down from heaven , not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." - John 6:38 KJV
Additionally, he is a created being, like you and me. Colossians 1:15 KJV confirms this important fact and adds that he was the first to be so created:
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" ."
Being thus created, he is not the same as God the Father, but rather the first-born son or, as the apostle Peter said: "... the Christ, the Son of the Living God". (Matthew 16:16).
My response:
Yes indeed he was the first born son of God in heaven. Obviously he like us had spirit bodies in heaven prior to entering mortality
As testified in:
Romans 8: 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
He took on a human form for one reason - the salvation of sinful mankind:”
My response:
I take exception to your above claim for it is shown in the following:
Revelation 21:And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Also observe the following:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him[/b]
Comment: If all the ANGELS OF GOD ARE TO WORSHIP THE SON, who is heir to all that God has, then this clearly indicates his divine nature as a clear member of the Godhead.
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
In closing I might mention that Christ himself identified himself approximately 81 times as the "son of man". I wonder how many times Christ has to repeat this identity before one can accept his word?
