I would like to help any christian who wants to know about the nature of Jesus from Islamic point of view.
I will be here just for 4 days. I will do my best in this days.
may my first thread be useful.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... php?t=3891
Please don't hesitate to ask whatever question crosses your mind
be blessed..
Who is Jesus?
Moderator: Moderators
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Easyrider
Post #2
I do have one question for the Islamists:
I believe their Koran teaches that Jesus was a prophet. If so, why didn't they believe him when Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
And also,
"Indeed, unless you believe I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
Truly the God of Christianity cannot be Allah, for Allah apparently doesn't know Jesus is also divine, as Jesus and the NT teaches.
Cheers...
I believe their Koran teaches that Jesus was a prophet. If so, why didn't they believe him when Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
And also,
"Indeed, unless you believe I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
Truly the God of Christianity cannot be Allah, for Allah apparently doesn't know Jesus is also divine, as Jesus and the NT teaches.
Cheers...
-
ILoveJesus
- Student
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:47 pm
Post #3
hi Easyrider,
Muslims don't believe in the bible which we have today. we believe in the original form which was perverted after centuries of Jesus life and it's distortion made it untrustworthy source but what I believe that all the bible's mistakes do not justify a total rejection of the book because there will be bound some passages whose essence if it true not need to be rejected.
God said in the holy koran "And unto you have I revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watch over it" the holy Quran 5:48
this verse means that the holy koran is the final judge and the only criterion to correct any mistakes which occurred in the bible.
for example, the verse in description of my thread. Mattew 21:11 " "This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee" I agree with that 100%
Jesus is a prophet of Nazareth. God sent him to children of Israel when they deviated from Moses' teachings.
"And when Jesus son of Mary said, "Children of Israel, I am indeed the Messenger to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tiding of a Messenger who shall be the praised one" the holy koran 61:6
he is a prophet according to the holy koran and Bible. I have many other verse in the bible which support prophecy of Jesus like:
"Nevertheless I (Jesus) must walk to day, and tomorrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a Prophet perish out of Jerusalem." Luke 13:33
"And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A Prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house." Matthew 13:57 also in Mark 6:4, Luke 4:24, John 4:43
"And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet." Matthew 14:5
"But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet." Matthew 21:46
"And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:" Luke 24:19
"Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world."John 6:14
I know so many other verses if you want it tell me to post them all anyway, the verse "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" doesn't mean that Jesus is a god. Jesus peace be upon him didn't say no one will come to heaven except if he worship me. he said he will come to heaven through me.
if you looked a bit verse before it you will read
"In my Father's house are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion for you" John 14:2
this verse very clear. Jesus means that if one obey him he will go to this mansion. so Jesus is just the way to it. this is indeed confirmed in John 10:9 where Jesus peace be upon him tells us that he is "the door" to "the pasture." In other words, he is the "prophet" who guides his people to "heaven"
be blessed
Muslims don't believe in the bible which we have today. we believe in the original form which was perverted after centuries of Jesus life and it's distortion made it untrustworthy source but what I believe that all the bible's mistakes do not justify a total rejection of the book because there will be bound some passages whose essence if it true not need to be rejected.
God said in the holy koran "And unto you have I revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watch over it" the holy Quran 5:48
this verse means that the holy koran is the final judge and the only criterion to correct any mistakes which occurred in the bible.
for example, the verse in description of my thread. Mattew 21:11 " "This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee" I agree with that 100%
Jesus is a prophet of Nazareth. God sent him to children of Israel when they deviated from Moses' teachings.
"And when Jesus son of Mary said, "Children of Israel, I am indeed the Messenger to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tiding of a Messenger who shall be the praised one" the holy koran 61:6
he is a prophet according to the holy koran and Bible. I have many other verse in the bible which support prophecy of Jesus like:
"Nevertheless I (Jesus) must walk to day, and tomorrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a Prophet perish out of Jerusalem." Luke 13:33
"And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A Prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house." Matthew 13:57 also in Mark 6:4, Luke 4:24, John 4:43
"And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet." Matthew 14:5
"But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet." Matthew 21:46
"And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:" Luke 24:19
"Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world."John 6:14
I know so many other verses if you want it tell me to post them all anyway, the verse "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" doesn't mean that Jesus is a god. Jesus peace be upon him didn't say no one will come to heaven except if he worship me. he said he will come to heaven through me.
if you looked a bit verse before it you will read
"In my Father's house are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion for you" John 14:2
this verse very clear. Jesus means that if one obey him he will go to this mansion. so Jesus is just the way to it. this is indeed confirmed in John 10:9 where Jesus peace be upon him tells us that he is "the door" to "the pasture." In other words, he is the "prophet" who guides his people to "heaven"
be blessed
-
Easyrider
Post #4
The idea that Jesus is not divine is one of the central, and incorrect, assumptions of many false religions. The deity of Christ is found in the first-century New Testament, and was reiterated by numerous, subsequent individuals, such as John's disciple Polycarp, amongst others.
Did Jesus claim to be God?
Among the religious leaders who have attained a large following throughout history, Jesus Christ is unique in the fact that He alone claimed to be God in human flesh. A common misconception is that some or many of the leaders of the world's religions made similar claims, but this is simply not the case.
Buddha did not claim to be God; Moses never said that he was Yahweh; Mohammed did not identify himself to be Ahura Mazda. Yet Jesus, the carpenter from Nazareth, said that he who has seen him (Jesus) has seen the Father (John 14:9).
The claims of Christ are many and varied. He said that He existed before Abraham (John 8:58), and that He was equal with the Father (John 14:9).
The New Testament equated Jesus as the creator of the universe (John 1:3), and that He is the one who holds everything together (Colossians 1:17). The apostle Paul says that God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16, KJV), and John the evangelist says that "the Word was God" (John 1:1). The united testimony of Jesus and the writers of the New Testament is that He was more than mere man; He was God.
Not only did His friends notice that He claimed to be God, but so did His enemies as well. There may be some doubt today among the skeptics who refuse to examine the evidence, but there was no doubt on the part of the Jewish authorities.
When Jesus asked them why they wanted to stone Him, they replied, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God" (John 10:33, NASB).
This fact separates Jesus from the other religious figures. In the major religions of the world, the teachings -- not the teacher -- are all-important.
Confucianism is a set of teachings; Confucius is not important. Islam is the revelation of Allah, with Mohammed being the prophet, and Buddhism emphasizes the principles of the Buddha and not Buddha himself. This is especially true of Hinduism, where there is no historic founder.
However, at the center of Christianity is the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not just claim to be teaching mankind the truth; He claimed that He was the truth (John 14:6).
What Jesus taught is not the important aspect of Christianity, but what is important is who Jesus was. Was He the Son of God? Is He the only way a person can reach God? This was the claim He made for Himself.
Suppose this very night the President of the United States appeared on all the major networks and proclaimed that "I am God Almighty. I have the power to forgive sin. I have the authority to raise my life back from the dead."
He would be quickly and quietly shut off the air, led away, and replaced by the Vice-President. Anybody who would dare make such claims would have to be either out of his mind or a liar, unless he was God.
This is exactly the case with Jesus. He clearly claimed all these things and more. If He is God, as He claimed, we must believe in Him, and if He is not, then we should have nothing to do with Him. Jesus is either Lord of all or not Lord at all.
Yes, Jesus claimed to be God. Why should anyone believe it? After all, merely claiming to be something does not make it true. Where's the evidence that Jesus is God?
The Bible gives various reasons, including miracles and fulfilled prophecy, that are intended to convince us that Jesus is the one whom He said He was (John 20:30, 31). The main reason, or the sign which Jesus Himself said would demonstrate that He was the Son of God, was His resurrection from the dead.
When asked for a sign from the religious leaders, Jesus replied, "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40, RSV).
In another place He said, when asked for a sign, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up . . . but he spake of the temple of his body" (John 2:19, 21, KJV). The ability to raise His life back from the dead was the sign that separates Him not only from all other religious leaders, but also from anyone else who has ever lived.
Anyone wishing to refute the case for Christianity must explain away the story of the resurrection. Therefore, according to the Bible, Jesus proves to be the Son of God by coming back from the dead (Romans 1:4). The evidence is overwhelming that Jesus did rise from the grave, and it is this fact that proves Jesus to be God.
This is an excerpt from the book, "Answers to Tough Questions," by Josh McDowell and Don Stewart.
The Deity of Christ:
1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father
(Philippians 2:5-7).
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25;
Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as
God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds
(Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as
God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew
14:33; 28:9).
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves. (Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter
3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God's Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30).
Did Jesus claim to be God?
Among the religious leaders who have attained a large following throughout history, Jesus Christ is unique in the fact that He alone claimed to be God in human flesh. A common misconception is that some or many of the leaders of the world's religions made similar claims, but this is simply not the case.
Buddha did not claim to be God; Moses never said that he was Yahweh; Mohammed did not identify himself to be Ahura Mazda. Yet Jesus, the carpenter from Nazareth, said that he who has seen him (Jesus) has seen the Father (John 14:9).
The claims of Christ are many and varied. He said that He existed before Abraham (John 8:58), and that He was equal with the Father (John 14:9).
The New Testament equated Jesus as the creator of the universe (John 1:3), and that He is the one who holds everything together (Colossians 1:17). The apostle Paul says that God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16, KJV), and John the evangelist says that "the Word was God" (John 1:1). The united testimony of Jesus and the writers of the New Testament is that He was more than mere man; He was God.
Not only did His friends notice that He claimed to be God, but so did His enemies as well. There may be some doubt today among the skeptics who refuse to examine the evidence, but there was no doubt on the part of the Jewish authorities.
When Jesus asked them why they wanted to stone Him, they replied, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God" (John 10:33, NASB).
This fact separates Jesus from the other religious figures. In the major religions of the world, the teachings -- not the teacher -- are all-important.
Confucianism is a set of teachings; Confucius is not important. Islam is the revelation of Allah, with Mohammed being the prophet, and Buddhism emphasizes the principles of the Buddha and not Buddha himself. This is especially true of Hinduism, where there is no historic founder.
However, at the center of Christianity is the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not just claim to be teaching mankind the truth; He claimed that He was the truth (John 14:6).
What Jesus taught is not the important aspect of Christianity, but what is important is who Jesus was. Was He the Son of God? Is He the only way a person can reach God? This was the claim He made for Himself.
Suppose this very night the President of the United States appeared on all the major networks and proclaimed that "I am God Almighty. I have the power to forgive sin. I have the authority to raise my life back from the dead."
He would be quickly and quietly shut off the air, led away, and replaced by the Vice-President. Anybody who would dare make such claims would have to be either out of his mind or a liar, unless he was God.
This is exactly the case with Jesus. He clearly claimed all these things and more. If He is God, as He claimed, we must believe in Him, and if He is not, then we should have nothing to do with Him. Jesus is either Lord of all or not Lord at all.
Yes, Jesus claimed to be God. Why should anyone believe it? After all, merely claiming to be something does not make it true. Where's the evidence that Jesus is God?
The Bible gives various reasons, including miracles and fulfilled prophecy, that are intended to convince us that Jesus is the one whom He said He was (John 20:30, 31). The main reason, or the sign which Jesus Himself said would demonstrate that He was the Son of God, was His resurrection from the dead.
When asked for a sign from the religious leaders, Jesus replied, "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40, RSV).
In another place He said, when asked for a sign, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up . . . but he spake of the temple of his body" (John 2:19, 21, KJV). The ability to raise His life back from the dead was the sign that separates Him not only from all other religious leaders, but also from anyone else who has ever lived.
Anyone wishing to refute the case for Christianity must explain away the story of the resurrection. Therefore, according to the Bible, Jesus proves to be the Son of God by coming back from the dead (Romans 1:4). The evidence is overwhelming that Jesus did rise from the grave, and it is this fact that proves Jesus to be God.
This is an excerpt from the book, "Answers to Tough Questions," by Josh McDowell and Don Stewart.
The Deity of Christ:
1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father
(Philippians 2:5-7).
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25;
Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as
God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds
(Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as
God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew
14:33; 28:9).
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves. (Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter
3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God's Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30).
Post #5
Greetings ILoveJesus,
I quite enjoyed your presentation on "Jesus" being a "Prophet". I can see you do your homework. Well done
Now you said the following...
Like the Jewish religion, the strength of Islam has been its clear-cut and well-defined presentation of Allah as the one and only Deity . For this, I commend you. Be that as it may... do you believe that this "One" God, known to the Jews as "YHWH" (Yahweh) and to Islam as "Allah" are one and the same... though called on by 'different names'???
Your response is most welcomed.
Peace unto you
Ankh
I quite enjoyed your presentation on "Jesus" being a "Prophet". I can see you do your homework. Well done
Now you said the following...
I would like to ask you if you believe that Hebrew theology played an important part in the development of Mohammedanism, as it surely did in Christianity?Please don't hesitate to ask whatever question crosses your mind
be blessed..
Like the Jewish religion, the strength of Islam has been its clear-cut and well-defined presentation of Allah as the one and only Deity . For this, I commend you. Be that as it may... do you believe that this "One" God, known to the Jews as "YHWH" (Yahweh) and to Islam as "Allah" are one and the same... though called on by 'different names'???
Your response is most welcomed.
Peace unto you
Ankh
I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil (Psalms 119:162)
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ILoveJesus
- Student
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:47 pm
Post #6
hi Easyrider, Thank you for your reply
"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord"
Now the question is did Jesus claim to be God?
of course not. there is no one single unequivocal statement in the whole Bible where Jesus himself claimed explicitly " I am God"
In the bible we read "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the lord is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie" Jeremiah 8:8
"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands" Deuteronomy 31:25-29
we know which one of the bible is interpolated is
1-by koran or 2-science or 3-by Bible itself (compare the verse to another verse in the same bible) or 4-by the verse context.
for example to the number 3:
the verse which you posted (John 14:9)
let us read a little bit before it
"Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" John 14:8-9
Philip is a man and he saw Jesus then he must saw God but in if we compare this to another verse in the Bible we read:
"No man hath seen God at any time" John 1:18
"Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." John 6:46
so tell me is Philip a man or of God?
God says "the similitude of Jesus before God is that of Adam, he created him from dust, then said to him "Be" and was." the Holy Koran 3:59
anyway, if you read your Bible you will find that God has tons of sons
"And thou [Moses] shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my first born." (Exodus 4:22), "He [Solomon] shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father and he shall be my son." (II Samuel 7:13-14),"I am a father to Israel and Ephraim is my firstborn"(Jeremiah 31:9), 'long before Jesus was born', "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me [David], Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee."(Psalm 2:7), and "Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God"(Luke3: 38).
I am sorry if I did mistakes in English Grammar. I am not a native.
be blessed..
Jesus peace be upon him is no more than a prophet of Nazareth. he was a great Prophet. he was one in a long line of great prophets, who teach his people to worship only one God as all the Prophets did. they all were sent by the same God to bring the same message. if you look at Matthew 5:16-20 you will read that Jesus himself has said that he brought nothing new in the prophets messages. Do you explain that to me? what I know that Moses peace be upon him did not teach his people about original sin of human beings nor trinity. he taught his people to worship only one God. Jesus also did that when one scribe asked him about the first commandment. Jesus's answer was repeating to what Moses peace be upon him said. he answered:Did Jesus claim to be God?
"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord"
Now the question is did Jesus claim to be God?
of course not. there is no one single unequivocal statement in the whole Bible where Jesus himself claimed explicitly " I am God"
You posted many verses from the bible. I have to say before I answer them, that I don't believe in the whole bible today. I consider the parts which were interpolated by men are wrong. I believe in original form of the Torah and Gospel which was given to Jesus and Moses peace be upon them all.Yet Jesus, the carpenter from Nazareth, said that he who has seen him (Jesus) has seen the Father (John 14:9)
In the bible we read "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the lord is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie" Jeremiah 8:8
"And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites(Jews), which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands" Deuteronomy 31:25-29
we know which one of the bible is interpolated is
1-by koran or 2-science or 3-by Bible itself (compare the verse to another verse in the same bible) or 4-by the verse context.
for example to the number 3:
the verse which you posted (John 14:9)
let us read a little bit before it
"Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" John 14:8-9
Philip is a man and he saw Jesus then he must saw God but in if we compare this to another verse in the Bible we read:
"No man hath seen God at any time" John 1:18
"Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." John 6:46
so tell me is Philip a man or of God?
No, Jesus wasn't son of God. if you consider Jesus as son of God because he was born without father. we Muslims believe that he was born miraculously without father but Adam also was born without father nor mother and no one believe that Adam is a God.Was He the Son of God?
God says "the similitude of Jesus before God is that of Adam, he created him from dust, then said to him "Be" and was." the Holy Koran 3:59
anyway, if you read your Bible you will find that God has tons of sons
"And thou [Moses] shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my first born." (Exodus 4:22), "He [Solomon] shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father and he shall be my son." (II Samuel 7:13-14),"I am a father to Israel and Ephraim is my firstborn"(Jeremiah 31:9), 'long before Jesus was born', "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me [David], Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee."(Psalm 2:7), and "Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God"(Luke3: 38).
I am sorry if I did mistakes in English Grammar. I am not a native.
be blessed..
-
ILoveJesus
- Student
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Post #7
sorry I don't understand what do you mean but if you mean by saying "He would be quickly and quietly shut off the air, led away, and replaced by the Vice-President" to what Jews did to Jesus peace be upon him I would like to post what Jesus said, he said in Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the Prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!"Suppose this very night the President of the United States appeared on all the major networks and proclaimed that "I am God Almighty. I have the power to forgive sin. I have the authority to raise my life back from the dead."
He would be quickly and quietly shut off the air, led away, and replaced by the Vice-President.
that doesn’t mean that Jews stoned Jesus because he is God. Jews used to kill and stone those who God were sent to them anyway instead of taking what the Jews who hated Jesus think about him, take what the follower who loved Jesus think about him.
Matt 16:13 "When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets"
No one of his disciples said that was God
about his miraculous we (Muslims) believe that he bringing the dead back to life, healing lepers, and making the blind see also we believe that he was speaking as a child in the cradle also that he fashioned birds out of clay, blew on them and they flew away, living birds.
but all of that do not mean that Jesus is a God.
In the Bible Acts 2:22, we read: "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know"
also in John 5:30 " I can of Myself do nothing"
as for forgiving sins Jesus said in Matthew 9:2 "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven"
if you look a bit little before it you will read "praised God, who had given such authority to men." Matthew 9:8
in John 8:28 we read that Jesus doesn't speak by his own but he speaks only of what the Father taught him.
now Jesus saying "your sins are forgiven" is a diffrent from saying "I forgave your sins"
be blessed
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ILoveJesus
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Post #8
Hi Ankh,
also Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said:
"Do not exalt me as the Christians have exalted Jesus son of Mary. I am just His servant, so call me God's Servant and Messenger"
as for Yahweh I cannot answer you. you know as I said before The Bible was corrupted and I don't know what Jews think or said about Yahweh. but what I believe that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are three forms of one religion from ONE God, which, in its original purity, was the religion of Abraham peace be upon him and I believe that The God who spoke to Moses peace be upon him is our God.
be blessed
by the way, we are not the only who believe that Jesus is a Prophet but also the first groups of Christianity as The Arians, the Basilidians, the Ebonites, the Hypisistarians, Paulicians, the Capocratians, Goths and the Cerinthians.Ankh wrote: I quite enjoyed your presentation on "Jesus" being a "Prophet". I can see you do your homework. Well done
first of all, Please don't call Islam as Muhammadism. Islam is not like Christianism, Judaism, buddhism..etc which takes it name from the name of its founder. Islam is a religion of God of Adam, Abraham, Moses and all other prophets. Muhammad is just a Prophet. God says "Muhammad is only (a man) charged with a mission before whom there have been others who received heavenly missions and died"I would like to ask you if you believe that Hebrew theology played an important part in the development of Mohammedanism, as it surely did in Christianity?
Like the Jewish religion, the strength of Islam has been its clear-cut and well-defined presentation of Allah as the one and only Deity . For this, I commend you. Be that as it may... do you believe that this "One" God, known to the Jews as "YHWH" (Yahweh) and to Islam as "Allah" are one and the same... though called on by 'different names'???
also Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said:
"Do not exalt me as the Christians have exalted Jesus son of Mary. I am just His servant, so call me God's Servant and Messenger"
as for Yahweh I cannot answer you. you know as I said before The Bible was corrupted and I don't know what Jews think or said about Yahweh. but what I believe that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are three forms of one religion from ONE God, which, in its original purity, was the religion of Abraham peace be upon him and I believe that The God who spoke to Moses peace be upon him is our God.
be blessed
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ILoveJesus
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Post #9
hello Easyrider
since there is no question let us look at your post in more seriously.
"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one"
that's very clear. they are one in purpose just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand.
here another proof:
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one" John 17:20-22
if Jesus is a God because he is one with God in purpose. according to John 17:20-22 those all must be gods.
also Peter refers to Jesus as a man and servant of God. he said "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know." Acts 2:22
also he said:"God raised up his servant" Acts 3:26
"The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus." Acts 3:13
as for John. he told us that Jesus said: "the Father is greater than I" John 14:28
is there anyone greater than himself?
also we read Jesus saying "I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" John 20:17
when Jesus peace be upon him said "My God" he gave us a very clear proof that he is not God.
since there is no question let us look at your post in more seriously.
You took that out of context, please read the whole passege.Easyrider wrote: 27. One with the Father (John 10:30).
"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one"
that's very clear. they are one in purpose just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand.
here another proof:
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one" John 17:20-22
if Jesus is a God because he is one with God in purpose. according to John 17:20-22 those all must be gods.
that's wrong. Paul himself believe that Jesus is not God because he said that Jesus is the first one of God's creatures. So if he is God do you tell me how God creates himself?Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God.
also Peter refers to Jesus as a man and servant of God. he said "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know." Acts 2:22
also he said:"God raised up his servant" Acts 3:26
"The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus." Acts 3:13
as for John. he told us that Jesus said: "the Father is greater than I" John 14:28
is there anyone greater than himself?
also we read Jesus saying "I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" John 20:17
when Jesus peace be upon him said "My God" he gave us a very clear proof that he is not God.
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Easyrider
Post #10
Greetings!ILoveJesus wrote: hello Easyrider
since there is no question let us look at your post in more seriously.You took that out of context, please read the whole passege.Easyrider wrote: 27. One with the Father (John 10:30).
"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one"
that's very clear. they are one in purpose just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand.
The problem with your interpretation is that, if true, the Jews shouldn't have been offended. But it's obvious that they understood what Jesus was saying to be a declaration of Jesus deity, for their response was:
John 10:31 - Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
Thus, the context and your viewpoint are contrary to the scriptural record.
that's wrong. Paul himself believe that Jesus is not God because he said that Jesus is the first one of God's creatures. So if he is God do you tell me how God creates himself?[/quote]ILoveJesus wrote: Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God.
"firstborn of creation" in that passage denotes preeminence, not birth order. Please review the information in the following link for more info on that.
http://www.eternalministries.org/articles/Firstborn.htm
By the way, Paul calls Adam the first man. Obviously he doesn't think Jesus is Adam.
Peter calls Jesus "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" 2 Peter 1:1. And Jesus (god) came to earth to take the form of a servant to mankind. Beautiful!ILoveJesus wrote: also Peter refers to Jesus as a man and servant of God. he said "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know." Acts 2:22
Considering John had already identified Jesus as the Word God in John 1:1, it is hard to give creedence to this. For the argument that God is greater than Jesus (only when Jesus was in his humanity) please review the information in the following link:ILoveJesus wrote:
as for John. he told us that Jesus said: "the Father is greater than I" John 14:28
is there anyone greater than himself?
also we read Jesus saying "I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" John 20:17
when Jesus peace be upon him said "My God" he gave us a very clear proof that he is not God.
http://www.letusreason.org/Trin20.htm
Jesus is God.
