Intelligent Design

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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jtls1986
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Intelligent Design

Post #1

Post by jtls1986 »

Is anyone familiar with this concept...I was introduced to this recently and I find it to be quite convincing...

Considering that Darwin himself stated that his theory of evolution would completely break down ***IF*** a biological entity was capable of developing complex systems without taking slow steps of slowly evolving similar structures that would eventually lead to the complex systems...

After observing a bacterium, and focusing on a single structure, the flagellum...scientists revealed a very complex biological machine....involving structures similar to a human machine that would run wheels or something like that... :roll:

Anyway, the scientists declared that such a complex system could not have been capable of evolving from organisms that originated from a "proto-earth", since the proteins and enzymes must connect in a particular fashion...and cannot connect differently...if the enzymes connect incorrectly....the enzymes will fall apart...and the protein itself would not have been produced...

These enzymes have thousands...if not billions of information that tell the enzyme to connect to a specific enzyme....and after connecting...the enzymes will roll up in a certain fashion to finally produce the protein..

How could primitive cells that originated from amino acids suddenly form such a complex chain of information that would form enzymes...and finally proteins that would together....form a complex bacterial flagellum?

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Post #11

Post by Lotan »

otseng wrote:
So, the question is, at the molecular level, how can it be explained for the origin of these complex components? There are no viable answers apart from an intelligent design.
The problem with this argument is that it is based on the assumption that some organs are 'irreducibly complex'. This is simply a variation on the creationist argument that 'if we can't explain it, it must be God'. In order to show that something is 'irreducibly complex' (ie impossible) one would have to prove a negative. Fortunately, the evolution of seemingly irreducibly complex structures like an eye or a flagellum, can be and has been explained, yet creationists refuse to accept explanations that don't include a designer.
Rather than repeating the question, why not take a look at the answers-
http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/ ... ticle.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html
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Post #12

Post by otseng »

Lotan wrote: The problem with this argument is that it is based on the assumption that some organs are 'irreducibly complex'.
Behe is not talking about "organs" but basic systems in which we can identify the molecular structure of it. When we get down to this level, then we cannot get at a more fundamental level of describing how something works. Then we can get a more objective analysis of its irreducible complexity.
Rather than repeating the question, why not take a look at the answers-
http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/ ... ticle.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html
What would help more in debates is if you can present in your own words what other websites say. Or at least provide quotes from them. I can also simply say, "Read Behe's book." But, that would be the lazy way out.

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Post #13

Post by Lotan »

otseng wrote:
So, the question is, at the molecular level, how can it be explained for the origin of these complex components? There are no viable answers apart from an intelligent design.
In response I must repeat that there are viable answers apart from intelligent design. The links are simply to demonstrate that these questions have been addressed. Perhaps your knowledge of molecular biology is sufficient to judge whether the answers provided are viable or not. My own understanding of the subject is insufficient. Since you are the one claiming that ID is the only possible answer the onus is on you to prove that statement. I'm claiming it is not.

Oh, and "organs", maybe "organelles" is more suitable. This is semantics.

This is semantics too-

otseng wrote:
Then we can get a more objective analysis of its irreducible complexity.
How can you be objective about an absolute?
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Post #14

Post by otseng »

Oh, and "organs", maybe "organelles" is more suitable. This is semantics.
It could be just semantics. But, the main point is that we have to get down to the molecular level to understand how something truly works. And at the molecular level, one then has to explain how did it come about.

Charles Darwin stated:
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."

Modifications, at its most fundamental level, would have to be on the molecular level. So, evolution would have to explain how things evolved on the molecular level.
Lotan wrote:Since you are the one claiming that ID is the only possible answer the onus is on you to prove that statement.
Let's look at the cilium.

Image
Cilia are hairlike organelles on the surfaces of many animal and lower plant cells that serve to move fluid over the cell's surface or to "row" single cells through a fluid. In humans, for example, epithelial cells lining the respiratory tract each have about 200 cilia that beat in synchrony to sweep mucus towards the throat for elimination. A cilium consists of a membrane-coated bundle of fibers called an axoneme. An axoneme contains a ring of 9 double microtubules surrounding two central single microtubules. Each outer doublet consists of a ring of 13 filaments (subfiber A) fused to an assembly of 10 filaments (subfiber B). The filaments of the microtubules are composed of two proteins called alpha and beta tubulin. The 11 microtubules forming an axoneme are held together by three types of connectors: subfibers A are joined to the central microtubules by radial spokes; adjacent outer doublets are joined by linkers that consist of a highly elastic protein called nexin; and the central microtubules are joined by a connecting bridge. Finally, every subfiber A bears two arms, an inner arm and an outer arm, both containing the protein dynein.
Source: Molecular Machines: Experimental Support for the Design Inference

On the molecular level, how does a cilia work?
Experiments have indicated that ciliary motion results from the chemically-powered "walking" of the dynein arms on one microtubule up the neighboring subfiber B of a second microtubule so that the two microtubules slide past each other (Figure 2a and b). However, the protein cross-links between microtubules in an intact cilium prevent neighboring microtubules from sliding past each other by more than a short distance. These cross-links, therefore, convert the dynein-induced sliding motion to a bending motion of the entire axoneme.
This explanation is very high level. A more in-depth explanation is in Darwin's Black Box pages 59-69.

Probably 10 thousand articles have been published on the cilium in various professional journals including Science, Nature, Biochemistry, Journal of Molecular Biology, Journal of Biological Chemistry, and many others. No article gives an explanation of how the cilium arose from a molecular standpoint. And only 2 even try to give a model of how it did arise.

We see that the cilium is an example of a irreducible complex system.
Cilia are composed of at least a half dozen proteins: alpha-tubulin, beta-tubulin, dynein, nexin, spoke protein, and a central bridge protein. These combine to perform one task, ciliary motion, and all of these proteins must be present for the cilium to function. If the tubulins are absent, then there are no filaments to slide; if the dynein is missing, then the cilium remains rigid and motionless; if nexin or the other connecting proteins are missing, then the axoneme falls apart when the filaments slide.

What we see in the cilium, then, is not just profound complexity, but also irreducible complexity on the molecular scale. Recall that by "irreducible complexity" we mean an apparatus that requires several distinct components for the whole to work.
With such a lack of any viable molecular explanation for the origin of the cilium, it can be argued that it cannot have arisen from any naturalistic means. It must have been purposely designed.

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Post #15

Post by ST88 »

otseng wrote:
We see that the cilium is an example of a irreducible complex system.
Cilia are composed of at least a half dozen proteins: alpha-tubulin, beta-tubulin, dynein, nexin, spoke protein, and a central bridge protein. These combine to perform one task, ciliary motion, and all of these proteins must be present for the cilium to function. If the tubulins are absent, then there are no filaments to slide; if the dynein is missing, then the cilium remains rigid and motionless; if nexin or the other connecting proteins are missing, then the axoneme falls apart when the filaments slide.

What we see in the cilium, then, is not just profound complexity, but also irreducible complexity on the molecular scale. Recall that by "irreducible complexity" we mean an apparatus that requires several distinct components for the whole to work.
With such a lack of any viable molecular explanation for the origin of the cilium, it can be argued that it cannot have arisen from any naturalistic means. It must have been purposely designed.
This assumes that in order for a eukaryotic cell, any single-celled eukaryotic organism to survive at all, cilia is necessary. That is, there is no possibility that intermediate steps would be viable -- not even that there would be a natural-selection advantage that the lack of cilia provides, but that life would be viable at all.

This also assumes that these proteins could not operate as anything else inside cells, or even exist at all except as they exist in the axoneme. I reason this way because evolution is all about developmental mistakes that benefit organisms. It should be clear that when existing components are organized in different ways, different structures can be created. The irreducible complexity argument would therefore fall apart if we were to find these components operating in different ways inside a cell.

1) My previous example of the centriole, which contains much of the building blocks & part of the structure of cilia inside the cell.

2) To say that "removing" one of the components listed above would lead to a useless appendage is terribly misleading, because it implies that these components all came together at the same time to create the structure. For example, dyneins appear elsewhere in cells. During mitosis, dyneins and kinesins, as microtubule motors, assist with cetrosomal movement towards the poles of the splitting cell, which has nothing to do with flagella. Since they are present in other structures in the cell, this tends to support the hypothesis that cilia and flagella arose from non-motile cells.

3) Not every single organism has the same structure of cilia & flagella:
Although the 9 + 2 pattern is the fundamental pattern of virtually all cilia and flagella, the axonemes of certain protozoans and some insect sperm show some interesting variations. The simplest such axoneme, containing three doublet microtubules and no central singlets (3 + 0) is found in Daplius, a parasitic protozoan. Its flagellum beats slowly (1.5 beats/s) in a helical pattern. Other axonemes consist of 6 + 0 or 9 + 0 arrangements of microtubules. These atypical cilia and flagella, which are all motile, show that the central pair of singlet microtubules is not necessary for axonemal beating and that fewer than nine outer doublets can sustain motility, but at a lower frequency.
Cilia and Flagella: Structure and Movement
This would tend to suggest that these structures did not necessarily arise spontaneously intact in the historical account, but that there may have been intermediate forms that provided "lower" levels of function. That they are different and viable suggests this.

4) The tubulins, the components of the microtubules that slide against each other to provide movements, are present in the microtubules inside the cell in the centromeres as well as those inside cilia (axonemes). Because both plant and animal cells have microtubules, but only animal cells have centromeres, we can infer that microtubules are not exclusively formed for cilia & flagella.

5) Here is a cross section of a cilia:
Image
The nexin bridge ("interdoublet nexin connection") is (theorized to be) the connection between microtubule doublets, acting like bungee cords so they don't slide past each other too much.

The microtubules in each doublet are not the same, they are distinguished as "A" and "B" tubules, as your quote points out. But there are also single and triplet microtubule structures that include "C" tubules, essentially the same as B's. Inside centrioles there are still other types: D, E, Z & H.
(http://www.rpi.edu/dept/bcbp/molbiochem ... crotub.htm)
This suggests that the structure of the cilia was not, in fact, created out of thin air, but was already a potential possibility in prokaryotic cells.

6) Prokaryotes, in evolutionary terms older than eukaryotes, possess similar proteins, FtsZ, to those that make up tubules in eukaryotes:
A relatively new and interesting finding is that FtsZ and tubulin appear to be homologues.... it was also found that [Ftsz] could assemble into protofilaments, two-dimensional sheets, and protofilament rings in in vitrostudies, which was consistent with FtsZ having a cytoskeletal-like function.
Exploring structure and function of FtsZ, a prokaryotic cell division protein and tubulin-homologue
In short, these two proteins do the same things in different classes of cells. This article goes on to say, in technical detail, that these two proteins share sequences in important structures, such as what are called the "N-terminal" and the "C-terminal", both of which have to do with ATP-like protein binding and destruction. The article also goes on to say that these similarities could possibly be formed independently -- and they do not share all traits -- but it is more likely that they are related because of the core similarities they share. And, further, FtsZ is a strong candidate for an early evolutionary version of tubulins.

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Post #16

Post by Lotan »

How to Write a Pseudoscience Bestseller

1. Create a mystery where none existed before, preferably one that cannot be easily easily proven or disproven. (eg. Atlantis, Bermuda Triangle, Irreducible Complexity)

2. Provide a startling solution to the 'mystery' based on the selective use of evidence. (eg. Lost Civilizations, UFOs, Intelligent Design)

3. Publish, and laugh all the way to the bank.

This pattern has been repeated countless times by the likes of Erich von Daniken, Graham Hancock, Charles Berlitz, et al precisely because it works. Readers feel that they are privy to a new breakthrough in science are usually don't have the time or inclination to research the authour's claims. Like this one:
Now, are any biochemical systems irreducibly complex? Yes, it turns out that many are.
from here.

Michael Behe would do well to read the next paragraph from Origin of Species (after "If it could be demonstrated..."):
We should be extremely cautious in concluding that an organ could not have been formed by transitional gradations of some kind.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14

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Post #17

Post by otseng »

It should be clear that when existing components are organized in different ways, different structures can be created.
Yes, life is made of basic components (monomers) and when organized in different ways they create different structures. But, because the same components are used in different structures, it does not show that that are not irreducibly complex. Take for instance a nail. It can be used to secure shingles on a roof. Or it can be used to put together a treehouse. Or it can be used to hang a picture on a wall. Take the nail away from any of the structures (roof, treehouse, picture) and the structures will not be able to fulfill its function.
This would tend to suggest that these structures did not necessarily arise spontaneously intact in the historical account, but that there may have been intermediate forms that provided "lower" levels of function. That they are different and viable suggests this.
There are some questions that arise out of this. How did the "lower" forms of cilia form? How did "lower" forms of cilia evolve into "higher" forms of cilia?

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Post #18

Post by Lotan »

otseng wrote:
How did the "lower" forms of cilia form?How did "lower" forms of cilia evolve into "higher" forms of cilia?
I'm not sure if this answers your question exactly, but hopefully it will be of some help:
An obvious intermediate stage between spindle and cilium would be a non-swimming appendage made of microtubules with a selectable function like increasing surface area, helping the protozoan to remain suspended in water, increasing the chances of bumping into bacteria to eat, or serving as a stalk attaching the cell to a solid substrate. One can't argue that such a non-swimming appendage is merely convenient imagination or unlikely to be selectable, as modern protists with analogous non-swimming microtubular appendages do exist and find them perfectly useful, the axopodia of phylum Actinopoda on genus Raphidiophrys being an oft-cited example.
From a discussion of the development of cilia from a mitotic spindle found here.

And also:
The bacterial flagellum is not even irreducible. Some bacterial flagella function without the L- and P-rings. In experiments with various bacteria, some components (e.g. FliH, FliD (cap), and the muramidase domain of FlgJ) have been found helpful but not absolutely essential [Matzke 2003]. One third of the 497 amino acids of flagellin have been cut out without harming its function [Kuwajima 1988]. Furthermore, many bacteria have additional proteins that are required for their own flagella but which are not required in the "standard," well-studied flagellum found in E. coli. Different bacteria have different numbers of flagellar proteins (in Helicobacter pylori, for example, only 33 proteins are necessary to produce a working flagellum), so Behe's favorite example of irreducibility seems actually to exhibit quite a bit of variability in terms of numbers of required parts [Ussery 1999].

Eukaryotic cilia are made by more than 200 distinct proteins, but even here irreducibility is illusive. Behe (1996) implied, and Denton (1986) claimed explicitly, that the common "9+2" tubulin structure of cilia could not be substantially simplified. Yet functional 3+0 cilia, lacking many microtubules as well as some of the dynein linkers, are known to exist [Miller 2003, 2004].
From the talkorigins site here.

Couldn't the structure of the cilia become more complex as a result of errors in copying the genes that code for the different structures within it?
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Post #19

Post by ST88 »

otseng wrote:
It should be clear that when existing components are organized in different ways, different structures can be created.
Yes, life is made of basic components (monomers) and when organized in different ways they create different structures. But, because the same components are used in different structures, it does not show that that are not irreducibly complex. Take for instance a nail. It can be used to secure shingles on a roof. Or it can be used to put together a treehouse. Or it can be used to hang a picture on a wall. Take the nail away from any of the structures (roof, treehouse, picture) and the structures will not be able to fulfill its function.
This nail analogy does not accurately represent the situation (evolution says that the picture might evolve its own glue anyway -- neither here nor there ;) ). In the flagellum scenario, you don't "take away" the nail in order to get it to a less complex structure, you rearrange the nail so that it A) doesn't have a flat head, or B) so that it is pointed on either end, C) is is too weak to support large pictures, etc. etc. until you get to a reverse evolutionary situation where there is no nail and, by subsequent (previous) structural change there is no need for a nail.

The correct analogy would be ingredients in a cake. You can use the same ingredients to make A) a layer cake; B) cupcakes; C) a Bundt cake; D) sheet cake; E) a quick bread; and F) unmolded batter. The difference is not the ingredients, it's what the cell does with the ingredients. And this is why irreducible complexity fails. Evolution says that one small transpositional genetic change can lead to extraordinary enzyme and protein differences. So even if we did not have eggs in the above cake example, and were stuck with making soda breads and shortbread, evolution says that the gene used to make butter can change to make both butter and eggs: and now we can make all sorts of other things including the things we could make before.

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Post #20

Post by otseng »

Lotan wrote:
Couldn't the structure of the cilia become more complex as a result of errors in copying the genes that code for the different structures within it?

Do we have any evidence of such things happening?
ST88 wrote: The difference is not the ingredients, it's what the cell does with the ingredients.

But how does a cell know what do to with the ingredients? And how does it know how to create something new?
Evolution says that one small transpositional genetic change can lead to extraordinary enzyme and protein differences.

But can it lead to new structures forming out of those ingredients?

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