Where do morals come from?

[Quixotic]

Some people would say that morals come from the bible. That there is no way to tell what is right or wrong outside of this.

If this is so do you think that all the stories in the bible are literally true. If not by what criteria do you decide what stories to take morals from? And which ones you should not. How do you decide what the moral of each story is and what that means you should do?

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www.fkreligion.com - Down with Dogma

[Cogitoergosum]

I love these three by McCulloch:

1. (On Sodomy): Other than the Bible says that it is wrong, why is this evil?

Response: (a) Other than your political correctness who says sodomy is right? (b) Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

2. (On shacking up): another victimless crime.

Response: Many unrepentant fornicators in hell might just have another slant on that!

3. Do not kill -- except when God tells you to take their land and wipe them out forever or when your bride turns out not to be a virgin.

McCulloch forgets there are consequences for sin.

Again easyrider surprises us with another post that shows how immature his morality is still and i'm still hoping despite all odds that it will evolve someday.
again the way he talks with certainty about some things like the adulterer are surely in hell makes me wonder how come he is so sure? How he can easily explain genocide as punishement for sins as if the jews at that time did not sin more than their fair share. somebody has done a good brainwashing job on him

[SpikedLillac]

What kind of God would give us the ability to do all these things then tell us to do it even though we want to? Stopping us only with fear! Death! Destruction! etc. That is just setting us up as entertaining slaves or setting us up to fail.

I hear so many people talk about how terrible God is because all he wants us to do is bow down, worship him, and obey him. I've heard people call Christians just a whole bunch of robots who mindlessly follow God. My point is, God gave us free will to do and believe anything we want. There are rules every where whether they are in the bible or they are traffic rules so I don't go 100 mph down a school zone with little children playing every where. God gave us these rules as guidelines to keep us safe and good. Now trust me if I was really late for work I would want to go 100 mph down the road but I know I shouldn't because i don't want kill all those children around me. How dare the city put down those rules for me to only go 20 mph! Fines! Jail! How dare they!

[micatala]

Moderator Intervention

I love these three by McCulloch:

1. (On Sodomy): Other than the Bible says that it is wrong, why is this evil?

Response: (a) Other than your political correctness who says sodomy is right? (b) Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

2. (On shacking up): another victimless crime.

Response: Many unrepentant fornicators in hell might just have another slant on that!

3. Do not kill -- except when God tells you to take their land and wipe them out forever or when your bride turns out not to be a virgin.

McCulloch forgets there are consequences for sin.

Again easyrider surprises us with another post that shows how immature his morality is still and i'm still hoping despite all odds that it will evolve someday.
again the way he talks with certainty about some things like the adulterer are surely in hell makes me wonder how come he is so sure? How he can easily explain genocide as punishement for sins as if the jews at that time did not sin more than their fair share. somebody has done a good brainwashing job on him

As per the rules, please do not engage in personal attacks. You can disagree or critique Easyrider's position without attacking him personally.

[Aslan]

Again easyrider surprises us with another post that shows how immature his morality is still and i'm still hoping despite all odds that it will evolve someday.

Ha Ha Ha ...evolve...good one...oh.

again the way he talks with certainty about some things like the adulterer are surely in hell makes me wonder how come he is so sure

We can never know who will be in Heaven or not. I can not pretend that morality, justice, mercy, and grace are simply things....it is the same with anger, wrath, and judgement. These are intracate things.

I cannot say that an adulterer will go to hell...all one has to do is look at the theif on the cross. You could say that that man perhaps never did a righteous thing in his life (who knows), and was being put to death for his crimes, but in his last hour was repentent. I will see that man someday.

How he can easily explain genocide as punishement for sins as if the jews at that time did not sin more than their fair share.

Not sure that I completely understand your comment here. I do not believe that the holocaust was a punishment for sins. I believe that it was the result of a broken world.

[MrWhy]

Moral behavior exist in human DNA, in the DNA of other social species. It is manifest in certain common social behavior preferences of most cultures, including non-Christian ones. This is the consequence of natural selection, which allows better reproduction success for individuals who behave in socially acceptable ways. This behavior is passed on via material DNA. Even ant societies have socially acceptable (moral) behavior. In this sense, there are no absolute morals as it does vary some depending on culture and species.

[Cogitoergosum]

Moral behavior exist in human DNA, in the DNA of other social species. It is manifest in certain common social behavior preferences of most cultures, including non-Christian ones. This is the consequence of natural selection, which allows better reproduction success for individuals who behave in socially acceptable ways. This behavior is passed on via material DNA. Even ant societies have socially acceptable (moral) behavior. In this sense, there are no absolute morals as it does vary some depending on culture and species.

I agree with most of that, most of your morality (good and bad ones) are encoded in your DNA. Believe it or not even bad morals could be good for natural selection. If you read the "selfish gene", by richard dawkins, you will find it very enlightning. For example being polygamous is "good" for your genes as their odds of being transmitted and preserved in the next generation increase. Passing on your genes is almost all that natural selection cares about.Of course no one is advocating that you need to base your ethics on that. Cultural memes and concepts and ethics passed in the society you are born in, also determines to a large part your morals. this is why people born in Northern america do not have the same morals as ones born in the middle east, even if they have the same religion. If you want to thing in psychological terms, your EGO is what is coded in your DNA, it is everything that is designed to promote your genes' selfish welfare, whereas your SUPEREGO would be the cultural ethics and norms passed on to you by your society or community. And in no way am i implying that religion now is what gives the community its morals because our morals are so much past religious morality it is not even a contest.

[Aslan]

Moral behavior exist in human DNA, in the DNA of other social species. It is manifest in certain common social behavior preferences of most cultures, including non-Christian ones. This is the consequence of natural selection, which allows better reproduction success for individuals who behave in socially acceptable ways. This behavior is passed on via material DNA. Even ant societies have socially acceptable (moral) behavior. In this sense, there are no absolute morals as it does vary some depending on culture and species.

I would say that our instincts certainly exist in our DNA, but our morality often times goes against our instincts...in fact many times our morality is detrimental to our passing on these genes. So it does not neccessarily hold true that natural selection could have produced the "accepted" moral behaviors of today.

[Goat]

Moral behavior exist in human DNA, in the DNA of other social species. It is manifest in certain common social behavior preferences of most cultures, including non-Christian ones. This is the consequence of natural selection, which allows better reproduction success for individuals who behave in socially acceptable ways. This behavior is passed on via material DNA. Even ant societies have socially acceptable (moral) behavior. In this sense, there are no absolute morals as it does vary some depending on culture and species.

I would say that our instincts certainly exist in our DNA, but our morality often times goes against our instincts...in fact many times our morality is detrimental to our passing on these genes. So it does not neccessarily hold true that natural selection could have produced the "accepted" moral behaviors of today.

I disagree with both those statements. The desire to have morality is in the DNA,and in the DNA of other social species.

How that morality is expressed is a combination of the desire for morality, and social interactions that help 'tune' the morality. Those values that are found useful, or at least not harmful tend to be promoted.. the ones that are self destructive tend to be weeded out over time... Not quite 'social darwinism'.. but some of the principles are the same.

[Aslan]

The desire to have morality is in the DNA,and in the DNA of other social species.

Have they discovered a morality gene? And if so how does the expression of this gene devolpe our "desire" to have morals.

Also you say that it creates a desire FOR the morals...not the morals themselves. Those have come from somethings else...something that was in place before the desire...interesting.

[Cogitoergosum]

The desire to have morality is in the DNA,and in the DNA of other social species.

Have they discovered a morality gene? And if so how does the expression of this gene devolpe our "desire" to have morals.

Also you say that it creates a desire FOR the morals...not the morals themselves. Those have come from somethings else...something that was in place before the desire...interesting.

You should read my earlier post on the subject. There is no specific gene for morality as far as we know. Your morality is like a code of conduct, this is code by a large part is inscribed in your DNA. don't think that only selfish morals are inscribed in your DNA even altruistic ones are also encoded. Being nice to your parents and kin actullay promotes your genes' survival as these people share 50% of your own DNA. i'm oversimplifying this, but i'm trying to give you an idea. there is no gene for DESIRE for morals, but individuals who have the genes that promote adherence to their community's social code of conduct are promoted as they have a higher odd of reproducing with a member of that community and thus passing on their genes.
The selfish gene by richard dawkins is very intresting to read.