Do we lose free will in Heaven?

[Metatron]

In innumerable threads at this forum, I've been told ad nauseum that God allows all sorts of horrible things to happen in the world because of the importance he attaches to man's free will. It is argued that man must be allowed to choose evil otherwise he is effectively God's puppet with no will of his own.

However, it is also argued that sin does not exist in Heaven. Why is this? Is it because man no longer possesses free will in Heaven? Is free will no longer important to God? Would that not make the saved into willless automatons by the same logic Christians use when discussing the problem of evil?

Do we lose free will in Heaven?

[Zzyzx]

Do not fear death though whenever it comes. The afterlife is rather nice. There is a right of passage that is unpleasant but the reward is well worth it.

Having no fear of a death that is only a "right of passage" into a "nice" afterlife is not much of a challenge. Wishful thinking about an "afterlife" alleviates the fear.

Would the fear of death be greater without the "promise" of afterlife?

The relieving fear of death by “providing” a “nice” afterlife is, IMO, the leading selling point of religion. Another is providing simplistic “explanations” for the unknown (which actually includes much of the former).

[Greatest I Am]

Do not fear death though whenever it comes. The afterlife is rather nice. There is a right of passage that is unpleasant but the reward is well worth it.

Having no fear of a death that is only a "right of passage" into a "nice" afterlife is not much of a challenge. Wishful thinking about an "afterlife" alleviates the fear.

Would the fear of death be greater without the "promise" of afterlife?

GIA wrote
Is that rhetorical. Who knows.

Regards
DL


The relieving fear of death by “providing” a “nice” afterlife is, IMO, the leading selling point of religion. Another is providing simplistic “explanations” for the unknown (which actually includes much of the former).

[Metatron]

Here is another possibility:

We retain free will in heaven. But the experience of heaven is so great that we have no desire to rebel. We continue to use our free will to our advantage, and thereby maintain the peace and love of being with our creator. In short, we would have no reason to sin while in heaven.


Any huge logical issues with this one?

I grant you that sin in this scenario would probably be rare but, unless human nature is utterly changed, it seems unrealistic to think that no one would sin. After all, even the very best of these people sinned while on Earth. Indeed, many of them may have committed terrible crimes but were forgiven. Hard to believe that there would be no backsliding if free will still exists. Naturally, the range of sins possible would be greatly reduced. It's doubtful that murder, for example, would be possible in Heaven.

Still, I should point out that we already have an example of sin in Heaven, namely Satan and his fallen angels who allegedly fell through the sin of pride. If angels can sin, why not man?

I am becoming terrible about not responding in a timely manner. My apologies. This discussion was left off on page 5.

You made a good point here. In heaven, it wouldn't be possible to commit MANY of the sins we can on earth.

Taking just the 10 commandments:

You shall have no other gods before me. - Well if you are in God's house and trying to worship Baal, I would seriously begin to question your intelligence. I don't think this one would happen.


You shall not make for yourself an idol. - Since Heaven would be a spirit place, without physical substance, this one would be impossible.


You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God. - This one I suppose COULD happen. I find it very unlikely however, especially if we are all kept very busy plucking our harps and singing ku-ba-ya.

Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy. - Timeless. This one can't happen.

Honor your father and your mother. - Well Jesus made it clear that in heaven no one will be married, so the relationship between spouses is non-applicable. I would venture to say that since we are all ultimately souls given existence through God, that once in heaven, we are all on equal terms. Mom and Dad simply become two other souls that exist. Therefore this one could not occur.

You shall not murder. - Can't happen

Neither shall you commit adultery. - Can't happen

Neither shall you steal. - Can't happen

Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor. - I suppose it could happen, but then I would have to wonder what there would be to lie about in heaven, especially since God knows everything anyway.

Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife. - Can't happen




Only three of ten are even theoretically possible given the traditionally accepted view of what heaven is. And those three would require very strange circumstances to occur.

You may have answered the OP here in a way I never thought of. Interesting.

You seem to make a lot of assumptions about what Heaven will be like. You assume that everyone will be intangible spirits and no doubt you can find scripture to back you up. However, I've encountered Christians that believe in a physical resurrection rather than a purely spiritual one. Everybody's favorite book Revelations points to a resurrection on a newly re-constituted earth. (Though Revelations is so tripped out that I never know what's supposed to be taken seriously.) I also again reference Satan and his Fall in which he not only exhibited sin in Heaven but also apparently engaged in combat against Michael's angels while in Heaven.

If you are correct and everyone's basically a ghost then sinning options are certainly limited since you cannot interact with an environment or other people in any physical sense. You also seem to think that all worldly attachments will be effectively severed (husband/wife, parent/child). I guess everyone will "float" around thinking at each other, though what we'll be thinking about in a Heaven with no challenges and no interaction with anything I can't imagine. It sounds like a remarkably unappealing vision of Heaven.

If there is a physical resurrection, on the other hand, theoretically all of the old sins are back on the table assuming free will still exists. Thus the premise of the OP.

[achilles12604]

Here is another possibility:

We retain free will in heaven. But the experience of heaven is so great that we have no desire to rebel. We continue to use our free will to our advantage, and thereby maintain the peace and love of being with our creator. In short, we would have no reason to sin while in heaven.


Any huge logical issues with this one?

I grant you that sin in this scenario would probably be rare but, unless human nature is utterly changed, it seems unrealistic to think that no one would sin. After all, even the very best of these people sinned while on Earth. Indeed, many of them may have committed terrible crimes but were forgiven. Hard to believe that there would be no backsliding if free will still exists. Naturally, the range of sins possible would be greatly reduced. It's doubtful that murder, for example, would be possible in Heaven.

Still, I should point out that we already have an example of sin in Heaven, namely Satan and his fallen angels who allegedly fell through the sin of pride. If angels can sin, why not man?

I am becoming terrible about not responding in a timely manner. My apologies. This discussion was left off on page 5.

You made a good point here. In heaven, it wouldn't be possible to commit MANY of the sins we can on earth.

Taking just the 10 commandments:

You shall have no other gods before me. - Well if you are in God's house and trying to worship Baal, I would seriously begin to question your intelligence. I don't think this one would happen.


You shall not make for yourself an idol. - Since Heaven would be a spirit place, without physical substance, this one would be impossible.


You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God. - This one I suppose COULD happen. I find it very unlikely however, especially if we are all kept very busy plucking our harps and singing ku-ba-ya.

Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy. - Timeless. This one can't happen.

Honor your father and your mother. - Well Jesus made it clear that in heaven no one will be married, so the relationship between spouses is non-applicable. I would venture to say that since we are all ultimately souls given existence through God, that once in heaven, we are all on equal terms. Mom and Dad simply become two other souls that exist. Therefore this one could not occur.

You shall not murder. - Can't happen

Neither shall you commit adultery. - Can't happen

Neither shall you steal. - Can't happen

Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor. - I suppose it could happen, but then I would have to wonder what there would be to lie about in heaven, especially since God knows everything anyway.

Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife. - Can't happen




Only three of ten are even theoretically possible given the traditionally accepted view of what heaven is. And those three would require very strange circumstances to occur.

You may have answered the OP here in a way I never thought of. Interesting.

You seem to make a lot of assumptions about what Heaven will be like. You assume that everyone will be intangible spirits and no doubt you can find scripture to back you up. However, I've encountered Christians that believe in a physical resurrection rather than a purely spiritual one. Everybody's favorite book Revelations points to a resurrection on a newly re-constituted earth. (Though Revelations is so tripped out that I never know what's supposed to be taken seriously.) I also again reference Satan and his Fall in which he not only exhibited sin in Heaven but also apparently engaged in combat against Michael's angels while in Heaven.

These may be my assumptions, but your comment is what brought it back to mind.

It's doubtful that murder, for example, would be possible in Heaven.

Apparently my view of heaven isn't to far from your understanding of the concept. Otherwise, I gravely misread you.

If you are correct and everyone's basically a ghost then sinning options are certainly limited since you cannot interact with an environment or other people in any physical sense. You also seem to think that all worldly attachments will be effectively severed (husband/wife, parent/child). I guess everyone will "float" around thinking at each other, though what we'll be thinking about in a Heaven with no challenges and no interaction with anything I can't imagine. It sounds like a remarkably unappealing vision of Heaven.

]

I don't agree that heaven's experience (should it exist) can be "boxed" up so concisely as you have done above. However, your first two sentences here are an accurate reflection of what I believe.

24Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

If there is a physical resurrection, on the other hand, theoretically all of the old sins are back on the table assuming free will still exists. Thus the premise of the OP.

I would suggest that a while a physical resurrection is a correct assumption based on biblical theology, that those new bodies will not be like the ones we have now. I believe our new bodies will be spiritual/physical bodies rather than physical bodies inhabited by spirit.

Don't ask me to "prove" it as you and I both know I can't. This is just what I have gleaned from my readings of the NT.

[Metatron]

If you are correct and everyone's basically a ghost then sinning options are certainly limited since you cannot interact with an environment or other people in any physical sense. You also seem to think that all worldly attachments will be effectively severed (husband/wife, parent/child). I guess everyone will "float" around thinking at each other, though what we'll be thinking about in a Heaven with no challenges and no interaction with anything I can't imagine. It sounds like a remarkably unappealing vision of Heaven.

I don't agree that heaven's experience (should it exist) can be "boxed" up so concisely as you have done above. However, your first two sentences here are an accurate reflection of what I believe.

24Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

I have to say that a Heaven where my wife is not my wife, my children are not my children, and my parents are not my parents doesn't sound like much of a heaven to me. If this is Heaven, maybe extinction is preferable.

If there is a physical resurrection, on the other hand, theoretically all of the old sins are back on the table assuming free will still exists. Thus the premise of the OP.

I would suggest that a while a physical resurrection is a correct assumption based on biblical theology, that those new bodies will not be like the ones we have now. I believe our new bodies will be spiritual/physical bodies rather than physical bodies inhabited by spirit.

Don't ask me to "prove" it as you and I both know I can't. This is just what I have gleaned from my readings of the NT.

What is the difference between a spiritual/physical body and a physical body with a spirit? Can a s/p body interact with matter or each other?

[achilles12604]

If you are correct and everyone's basically a ghost then sinning options are certainly limited since you cannot interact with an environment or other people in any physical sense. You also seem to think that all worldly attachments will be effectively severed (husband/wife, parent/child). I guess everyone will "float" around thinking at each other, though what we'll be thinking about in a Heaven with no challenges and no interaction with anything I can't imagine. It sounds like a remarkably unappealing vision of Heaven.

I don't agree that heaven's experience (should it exist) can be "boxed" up so concisely as you have done above. However, your first two sentences here are an accurate reflection of what I believe.

24Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

I have to say that a Heaven where my wife is not my wife, my children are not my children, and my parents are not my parents doesn't sound like much of a heaven to me. If this is Heaven, maybe extinction is preferable.

All a matter of opinion. I personally think that the orgasmic feelings of being with the one who created me and loves me even more than all those people put together sounds pretty good.

Family is important. God is infinitely more.

If there is a physical resurrection, on the other hand, theoretically all of the old sins are back on the table assuming free will still exists. Thus the premise of the OP.

I would suggest that a while a physical resurrection is a correct assumption based on biblical theology, that those new bodies will not be like the ones we have now. I believe our new bodies will be spiritual/physical bodies rather than physical bodies inhabited by spirit.

Don't ask me to "prove" it as you and I both know I can't. This is just what I have gleaned from my readings of the NT.

What is the difference between a spiritual/physical body and a physical body with a spirit? Can a s/p body interact with matter or each other?

*sigh* I was afraid you would ask me this. . .

I view the scriptures as saying that our bodies (our new bodies) will be sinless. They will be pure, without any sort of blemish. Disease can't touch or harm them. So a physical body, in the sense of skin cells covering muscle tissues and bone is incorrect.

Perhaps I use the word physical when I should use the word real. Bodies that really exist and are able to interact, yet not be confined by things like skin. You watch star trek? They would be something akin to energy beings. The traditional view of Ghosts would be somewhat close although not quite.

I don't know how to describe what I envision in my head. I guess we shall have to wait and see huh?

[Scrotum]

In innumerable threads at this forum, I've been told ad nauseum that God allows all sorts of horrible things to happen in the world because of the importance he attaches to man's free will. It is argued that man must be allowed to choose evil otherwise he is effectively God's puppet with no will of his own.

However, it is also argued that sin does not exist in Heaven. Why is this? Is it because man no longer possesses free will in Heaven? Is free will no longer important to God? Would that not make the saved into willless automatons by the same logic Christians use when discussing the problem of evil?

Do we lose free will in Heaven?

I was wondering, to the people here knowing about this Heaven and all, i presume you have first hand experience and knowledge, else, heck, you would´nt say anything right?

Can a Heaven Guy go down to Hell area? If not, why not, and does that not sorta relate to free will?

[Scrotum]

If you are correct and everyone's basically a ghost then sinning options are certainly limited since you cannot interact with an environment or other people in any physical sense. You also seem to think that all worldly attachments will be effectively severed (husband/wife, parent/child). I guess everyone will "float" around thinking at each other, though what we'll be thinking about in a Heaven with no challenges and no interaction with anything I can't imagine. It sounds like a remarkably unappealing vision of Heaven.

I don't agree that heaven's experience (should it exist) can be "boxed" up so concisely as you have done above. However, your first two sentences here are an accurate reflection of what I believe.

24Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

I have to say that a Heaven where my wife is not my wife, my children are not my children, and my parents are not my parents doesn't sound like much of a heaven to me. If this is Heaven, maybe extinction is preferable.

All a matter of opinion. I personally think that the orgasmic feelings of being with the one who created me and loves me even more than all those people put together sounds pretty good.

Family is important. God is infinitely more.

If there is a physical resurrection, on the other hand, theoretically all of the old sins are back on the table assuming free will still exists. Thus the premise of the OP.

I would suggest that a while a physical resurrection is a correct assumption based on biblical theology, that those new bodies will not be like the ones we have now. I believe our new bodies will be spiritual/physical bodies rather than physical bodies inhabited by spirit.

Don't ask me to "prove" it as you and I both know I can't. This is just what I have gleaned from my readings of the NT.

What is the difference between a spiritual/physical body and a physical body with a spirit? Can a s/p body interact with matter or each other?

*sigh* I was afraid you would ask me this. . .

I view the scriptures as saying that our bodies (our new bodies) will be sinless. They will be pure, without any sort of blemish. Disease can't touch or harm them. So a physical body, in the sense of skin cells covering muscle tissues and bone is incorrect.

Perhaps I use the word physical when I should use the word real. Bodies that really exist and are able to interact, yet not be confined by things like skin. You watch star trek? They would be something akin to energy beings. The traditional view of Ghosts would be somewhat close although not quite.

I don't know how to describe what I envision in my head. I guess we shall have to wait and see huh?

Would all other animals also be included in this scenario? Having been sent to either "hell" or "heaven" fow whatever they done? Floating around together with us?

[achilles12604]

Does it matter? Better yet, does your question have ANYTHING to do with the OP or the discussion we are having?

[Scrotum]

Does it matter? Better yet, does your question have ANYTHING to do with the OP or the discussion we are having?

Eh, pretty much yeah. As we are only ONE species in the world, WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THEM?


I did not see any answer, so i repeat myself again:

1. Do all other species, depending on heaven and hell, join us to? Do they have any say in it (yes or no).

2. Are We (and other species) allowed to mix with the other areas. OK, so now its only Heaven and Hell, so Heaven people go field trip to Hell, thats OK, or forbidden? (If forbidden, no freewill as topic is).



If you dont know, just say so.