Do we lose free will in Heaven?

Metatron · Post by **Metatron** » Wed May 16, 2007 8:27 pm

In innumerable threads at this forum, I've been told ad nauseum that God allows all sorts of horrible things to happen in the world because of the importance he attaches to man's free will. It is argued that man must be allowed to choose evil otherwise he is effectively God's puppet with no will of his own.

However, it is also argued that sin does not exist in Heaven. Why is this? Is it because man no longer possesses free will in Heaven? Is free will no longer important to God? Would that not make the saved into willless automatons by the same logic Christians use when discussing the problem of evil?

Do we lose free will in Heaven?

achilles12604 · Post by **achilles12604** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:06 am

Scrotum wrote:
achilles12604 wrote:Does it matter? Better yet, does your question have ANYTHING to do with the OP or the discussion we are having?
Eh, pretty much yeah. As we are only ONE species in the world, WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THEM?

I did not see any answer, so i repeat myself again:

1. Do all other species, depending on heaven and hell, join us to? Do they have any say in it (yes or no).

The topic is free will of humans after getting to heaven. So this is off topic. Start another thread.

2. Are We (and other species) allowed to mix with the other areas. OK, so now its only Heaven and Hell, so Heaven people go field trip to Hell, thats OK, or forbidden? (If forbidden, no freewill as topic is).

How does a "field trip" to hell indicate anything about a person's freedom to sin while in heaven?

Scrotum · Post by **Scrotum** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:16 am

How does a "field trip" to hell indicate anything about a person's freedom to sin while in heaven?

Its clear that you do not want to answer the question, presumably because you know its to your disadvatage, but it could of course have to do with your ability to understand/not understand, so i´ll make the very clear question even clearer, and i wish to see if you simple dont want to answer it:

Are The ones in Heave/Hell ALLOWED TO GO TO the opposite group?

I.E (That is to say; in other words): Tommy whom died in a car accident and got to go to Heaven, wants to go to Hell to visit his mother. Is he allowed to?

If not, no free will.
If he is, free will.

Easy as pancake.

achilles12604 · Post by **achilles12604** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:20 am

Scrotum wrote:
How does a "field trip" to hell indicate anything about a person's freedom to sin while in heaven?
Its clear that you do not want to answer the question, presumably because you know its to your disadvatage, but it could of course have to do with your ability to understand/not understand, so i´ll make the very clear question even clearer, and i wish to see if you simple dont want to answer it:

Are The ones in Heave/Hell ALLOWED TO GO TO the opposite group?

I.E (That is to say; in other words): Tommy whom died in a car accident and got to go to Heaven, wants to go to Hell to visit his mother. Is he allowed to?

If not, no free will.
If he is, free will.

Easy as pancake.

Ok.

My answer is quite simply no. I don't see how an individual would be allowed to go back and forth. However, I am also not sure why anyone from heaven would WANT to go to hell. That wouldn't make much sense to me.

Scrotum · Post by **Scrotum** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:24 am

My answer is quite simply no. I don't see how an individual would be allowed to go back and forth. However, I am also not sure why anyone from heaven would WANT to go to hell. That wouldn't make much sense to me.

See, that was not so hard, was it?

Your OPINION is of no interest, as i would not understand why anyone would WANT to drink coffee, does it matter? No, opinion has nothing to do with this topic.

Topic asks "Do we lose free will in Heaven", and if you are correct, the answer is a Yes, as we are not allowed to leave Heaven if we want to.

achilles12604 · Post by **achilles12604** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:30 am

Scrotum wrote:
My answer is quite simply no. I don't see how an individual would be allowed to go back and forth. However, I am also not sure why anyone from heaven would WANT to go to hell. That wouldn't make much sense to me.
See, that was not so hard, was it?

Your OPINION is of no interest, as i would not understand why anyone would WANT to drink coffee, does it matter? No, opinion has nothing to do with this topic.

Gee thanks. You are to flattering sometimes.

Topic asks "Do we lose free will in Heaven", and if you are correct, the answer is a Yes, as we are not allowed to leave Heaven if we want to.

Ok.

Scrotum · Post by **Scrotum** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:37 am

achilles12604 wrote: Your OPINION is of no interest, as i would not understand why anyone would WANT to drink coffee, does it matter? No, opinion has nothing to do with this topic.

Gee thanks. You are to flattering sometimes.

No insult intended, just that i needed to make it clear to you that opinion has nothing to do with it, what me or you think is of no interest, only "fact" is.

And so the topic is answered. We do lose free will then. I see no reason myself, if this Utopia would exist, why not allowed to leave it if you wish, perhaps it is not an Utopia, and thats why we are not allowed to leave it, maybe something better outside.

What do you think?
I can even use the U.S as exampele there to, Most americans never leave their country, and are told everyday how good it is, but its not, but how will they ever know if they cant leave it? Far and lack of money keeps them inside whiles a minority ever leaves it. No U.S bashing, just analogy for you. Have you thoughts about it?

Maybe Heaven is all a sham..

achilles12604 · Post by **achilles12604** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:41 am

Scrotum wrote:
achilles12604 wrote: Your OPINION is of no interest, as i would not understand why anyone would WANT to drink coffee, does it matter? No, opinion has nothing to do with this topic.

Gee thanks. You are to flattering sometimes.
No insult intended, just that i needed to make it clear to you that opinion has nothing to do with it, what me or you think is of no interest, only "fact" is.

And so the topic is answered. We do lose free will then. I see no reason myself, if this Utopia would exist, why not allowed to leave it if you wish, perhaps it is not an Utopia, and thats why we are not allowed to leave it, maybe something better outside.

What do you think?
I can even use the U.S as exampele there to, Most americans never leave their country, and are told everyday how good it is, but its not, but how will they ever know if they cant leave it? Far and lack of money keeps them inside whiles a minority ever leaves it. No U.S bashing, just analogy for you. Have you thoughts about it?

Maybe Heaven is all a sham..

Devil's advocate: Your conclusion that there MUST NOT be free will in heaven based on your test of going from heaven to hell is seriously flawed.

Do you have the free will to jump 25 feet into the air 5 times in 3 seconds?

Perhaps a souls can't get from heaven to hell for the same reason people could not get from europe to the americas in 600 AD. They just can't.

Scrotum · Post by **Scrotum** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:50 am

Do you have the free will to jump 25 feet into the air 5 times in 3 seconds?

First you where talking about that they cant go, and now you use physical impossibility as explanation, strange.

Tell me, how, and most importantly of course, WHY are we not able to? Reasoning?

Perhaps a souls can't get from heaven to hell for the same reason people could not get from europe to the americas in 600 AD. They just can't.

But we did.

"Rise of civilization
The rise of agriculture led to the foundation of stable human settlements.
The rise of agriculture led to the foundation of stable human settlements.

The most widely accepted view among current anthropologists is that Homo sapiens originated in the African savanna around 200,000 BP (Before Present), descending from Homo erectus, had colonized Eurasia and Oceania by 40,000 BP, and finally colonized the Americas approximately 10,000 years ago.[14] They displaced Homo neanderthalensis and other species descended from Homo erectus (which had colonized Eurasia as early as 2 million years ago) through more successful reproduction and competition for resources."

achilles12604 · Post by **achilles12604** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:52 am

Scrotum wrote:
Do you have the free will to jump 25 feet into the air 5 times in 3 seconds?
First you where talking about that they cant go, and now you use physical impossibility as explanation, strange.

Tell me, how, and most importantly of course, WHY are we not able to? Reasoning?

I just pointed out that you concluded just the opposite, that they WOULD be able to. Reasoning to support this vital assumption?

Perhaps a souls can't get from heaven to hell for the same reason people could not get from europe to the americas in 600 AD. They just can't.
But we did.

"Rise of civilization
The rise of agriculture led to the foundation of stable human settlements.
The rise of agriculture led to the foundation of stable human settlements.

The most widely accepted view among current anthropologists is that Homo sapiens originated in the African savanna around 200,000 BP (Before Present), descending from Homo erectus, had colonized Eurasia and Oceania by 40,000 BP, and finally colonized the Americas approximately 10,000 years ago.[14] They displaced Homo neanderthalensis and other species descended from Homo erectus (which had colonized Eurasia as early as 2 million years ago) through more successful reproduction and competition for resources."

If you read REAL careful, you will notice I said 600AD, not 8000 BC.

Could the people in europe travel to the america's in 600 AD?

Scrotum · Post by **Scrotum** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:03 am

If you read REAL careful, you will notice I said 600AD, not 8000 BC.

Could the people in europe travel to the america's in 600 AD?

Eh, Yes, Thats what the article and other media is saying.

BC means Before Christ, AD stands for Anno Domini, and refers to the time After the bith of Jesus Christ.

This timeline would be 8000 BC (Before Christ). Or ~10 000 years ago.

600 AD was only 1400 Years ago. Im confused by your post, did you not understand what you where yourself saying, or whats up?