Religion in schools

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:07 am

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Yesterday, my english teacher had us write on the question "Do you believe religion should be allowed in schools?". Of course, this got me thinking...

I believe that religion should not be pushed upon students. But, if a religion class is to be taught, it should cover more than just one scope. I remember a few years ago when a pastor came to our school, spoke about God, and handed out those little red bibles to each of us. Now, if a person expressing belief in the worship of Satan had asked to speak at our school, I highly doubt he would have been permitted to. Why? If religion is going to be pushed in school, shouldn't all be covered?

I do think that individuals should be able to express themselves (as in wearing jewelry, shirts, or in verbal expression). But, I doubt that the school system would allow an "I love Satan" shirt to be worn.

Anyways, enough of my ramblings. What are your opinions on this subject?

The Persnickety Platypus · Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:06 pm

We can't have it both ways. We can't have Our Favorite Religion allowed, and Those Other Horrid Religions banned. As a consequence, the path most followed is to disallow any displays that could be intrepreted as State sanction of any particular religious philosophy.

Why not just ALLOW all religious practices, rather than banning them?

However, it sounds like your school actually prevented you from praying on an individual basis; i.e., if you kneel down on your prayer mat during the lunch break (while the godless kids wait in line for their tater-tots), you'll get punished. That's crazy, and also illegal. I think that the ACLU would be more than happy to assist you in suing your school in this matter -- especially since they also prohibit 'WWJD" backpacks, which is also insane.

I probably could sue if I wanted, although I don't really care enough to go through the trouble. Besides, it's not like I would do/wear any of those things even if I could.

Thing is, although prayer is technically banned, I can't imagine many teachers would bother to enforce it. Most are Christians themselves. I believe the WWJD incident was fairly contained, it was only a couple tight-ass teachers who threw the fit. Anyway, like I said, my school is in a very conservative region... I can't imagine other schools being any better.

All this political correctness crap is getting old. A million people could walk past a poster of the ten commandments and not bat an eye, but all it takes is one finical loser with nothing to do, and the race is on. "THIS IS A COMPLETE INFRINGEMENT OF MY RIGHTS!!! I AM BEING SUBJECTED TO SOMEONE ELSE'S BELIEFS!!! I THOUGHT THIS WAS AMERICA?!?! I WISH I HAD A GIRLFRIEND, I AM SO STARVED FOR ATTENTION!!!

Seriously, who gives a crap? The Buddhist meditating in the hall does not bother me. The guy with the Satanist shirt on is not bothering anyone. Just chill out.

Bugmaster · Post by **Bugmaster** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:51 pm

Jose wrote:We can't have it both ways. We can't have Our Favorite Religion allowed, and Those Other Horrid Religions banned. As a consequence, the path most followed is to disallow any displays that could be intrepreted as State sanction of any particular religious philosophy.

That may be the easiest path to follow, but the least constitutional. Sure, there are limits on private (i.e., not state-sanctioned) religious expression, but they should stem from pragmatism, not ideology. So, even though your religion calls for you to sacrifice goats, you can't sacrifice goats at school, because it's a hygeinic nightmare.

So, as we become annoyed at being forbidden to do "perfectly normal stuff," we should try to think about how we would respond if other people did their "perfectly normal stuff" with which we violently disagree.

Personally, as long as they weren't physically endangering anyone (with fresh goat blood, f.ex.), I'd defend their right to hold their rituals, no matter how offensive they might be.

Dilettante · Post by **Dilettante** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:59 am

In my country (Spain) all schools, public and private, are required to offer religion as an elective subject (no one is required to take it, although in some Catholic schools it is difficult to avoid). Ethics and philosophy, on the other hand, are not electives, and everyone is required to take those subjects.
Spain has not traditionally been religiously diverse, although that is beginning to change, and this will complicate things. Wherever there is a group of ten or more students of a different creed (Muslim, Jehova's Witnesses, etc) these students have a legal right to be taught their religion at school. There are obvious problems with supporting mutually exclusive religions (or mutually exclusive cultures) in the school system --imagine the scandal if, for example, it was discovered that a radical mullah had been allowed to preach Islamic extremism in a public school--so some solution must be found.
Taking religion out of school could make matters worse, since it is much easier to get away with teaching violent ant-Western doctrines in private than it is in public. So perhaps a devil's advocate-type figure would be useful. That way, criticism of religion(s) would also have a place in the classroom, either as a separate subject, or as part of the religion class (as long as it's not the same teacher who presents both viewpoints, of course).

Cephus · Post by **Cephus** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:59 pm

Bugmaster wrote:That may be the easiest path to follow, but the least constitutional. Sure, there are limits on private (i.e., not state-sanctioned) religious expression, but they should stem from pragmatism, not ideology. So, even though your religion calls for you to sacrifice goats, you can't sacrifice goats at school, because it's a hygeinic nightmare.

See, that's the problem right there. Most religions aren't interested in free displays of religion, they only want free displays of THEIR religion and everyone else gets to pound sand. Years back, when some public schools were going to allow religious prayers at their graduation ceremonies, friends of mine, who were atheists, had a son who was the class valedictorian and was going to come up with a non-religious prayer-type-thing, that was not offensive, but certainly was non-Christian. The Christian parents had a fit. They only wanted prayers to be Christian and called for a ban of all prayers, rather than allow a non-Christian to be able to speak.

Allowing religion on campus, especially sanctioned by the schools, is a bigger nightmare than all the goat sacrifices you can imagine.

1John2_26 · Post by **1John2_26** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:57 pm

Schools should have apologetics and philosophy as subjects. If it is handled properly it should be no big problem. Why the fear of religion nowadays? Even the vast majority of Muslims are very peaceful. It's all about what it is to prepare students for the real world.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:38 pm

1John2_26 wrote:Schools should have apologetics and philosophy as subjects. If it is handled properly it should be no big problem. Why the fear of religion nowadays? Even the vast majority of Muslims are very peaceful. It's all about what it is to prepare students for the real world.

They should also be taught how to recognize logical fallacies. This not only protects them from religious error, but from slimy politicians and evil marketers. If apologetics were taught, it should be from the point of view of the history and development of apologetics and from the point of view of the major apologetic arguments and counter-arguments.

Cephus · Post by **Cephus** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:17 pm

McCulloch wrote:
1John2_26 wrote:Schools should have apologetics and philosophy as subjects. If it is handled properly it should be no big problem. Why the fear of religion nowadays? Even the vast majority of Muslims are very peaceful. It's all about what it is to prepare students for the real world.
They should also be taught how to recognize logical fallacies. This not only protects them from religious error, but from slimy politicians and evil marketers. If apologetics were taught, it should be from the point of view of the history and development of apologetics and from the point of view of the major apologetic arguments and counter-arguments.

The religious would never want that to happen, it would just end up costing them followers. The same goes for politicians. The same is true of comparative religious studies, no religious group wants anyone being taught any other religion, nor do they want anyone being taught that their religion is mythology.

Further, whoever got saddled with teaching these classes would be sitting on a political bomb. They couldn't dare suggest that any religion was wrong, or for that matter, that any religion was right, without risking offending someone and getting sued.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:52 pm

1John2_26 wrote:Schools should have apologetics and philosophy as subjects. If it is handled properly it should be no big problem. Why the fear of religion nowadays? Even the vast majority of Muslims are very peaceful. It's all about what it is to prepare students for the real world.

McCulloch wrote:They should also be taught how to recognize logical fallacies. This not only protects them from religious error, but from slimy politicians and evil marketers. If apologetics were taught, it should be from the point of view of the history and development of apologetics and from the point of view of the major apologetic arguments and counter-arguments.

Cephus wrote:The religious would never want that to happen, it would just end up costing them followers. The same goes for politicians. The same is true of comparative religious studies, no religious group wants anyone being taught any other religion, nor do they want anyone being taught that their religion is mythology.
Further, whoever got saddled with teaching these classes would be sitting on a political bomb. They couldn't dare suggest that any religion was wrong, or for that matter, that any religion was right, without risking offending someone and getting sued.

I cannot deny the time-bomb aspect of this but I still think that it would be a good idea. The instructor would have to be very careful that he or she was not teaching that any particular view is correct. They would teach the historical development of the various viewpoints and the logical and scientific methodology used to assess the various positions.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:37 pm

Maybe Christians should pray in closets.
I think that they should have a rep. from each religion teach what they think to everyone then discuss them. After the discussion they have a free for all fight.

Cephus · Post by **Cephus** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:47 am

Cathar1950 wrote:Maybe Christians should pray in closets.
I think that they should have a rep. from each religion teach what they think to everyone then discuss them. After the discussion they have a free for all fight.

That's pretty much what the Bible says, it's very specific not to make a public display of piety, but most Christians don't have a clue what the Bible says, they never bother to read it.