Evidence for the Resurrection

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Goose

Evidence for the Resurrection

Post #1

Post by Goose »

In my opinion, when determining the truthfulness of Christianity virtually everything is secondary in importance to the resurrection of Jesus Christ (the Rez). Paul made this clear when he said in 1 Corinthians 15:14, "if Christ has not been raised, then our message means nothing and your faith means nothing." I believe the truthfulness of Christianity hangs primarily on the Rez.

I also believe there is a solid case for the Rez that meets a reasonable burden of proof for matters of history. Equal, at least, to that which we accept for other pivotal events in ancient history accepted as true and rarely questioned.

As indicated by the spectrum of the below quoted scholars and historians, I propose we can be reasonably certain some historical "facts" are probably true regardless of our philosophical predispositions. We can then look at theories that account for those facts.

The Methodology:

A "fact" shouldn't necessarily need to pass all of the listed criteria to be considered probable. Failing any one particular criterion does not necessarily make the fact false. Indeed very few, if any at all, ancient historical "facts" we rarely question would adequately pass all the requests of such a rigorous criteria as set out below. However, a fact that fails to pass a single criterion we would be justified in believing it to be improbable. Passing one or two should be sufficient to have the "fact" be at least considered probable. If a fact passes three I think we can be confident that it is very probable and so on. This methodology is not fool-proof of course as it is open to our biases and ultimately subjective to a degree. However, this seems to be the only way (I know of) to establish a reasonably objective treatment of evidence - i.e. pass the evidence through a standard set of criteria using a consistent methodology that can be applied to ALL ancient events. So, using criteria such as (but not limited to)...
  • 1. Eyewitness attestation
    2. Early attestation (the earlier the better - written during the lifetime of possible eyewitnesses is preferred)
    3. Multiple independent attestation (independent does not mean non-Christian, but rather independent from other sources)
    4. Enemy or neutral source attestation
    5. The Principle of Embarrassment (If it's embarrassing or harmful to the case it is very likely that it is authentic or actually happened. It's very unlikely to have been propaganda simply “made up”)
Marcus J. Borg, a liberal theologian and "fellow" of the Jesus Seminar wrote, "The logic is straightforward: if a tradition appears in an early source and in another independent source, then not only is it early, but it is also unlikely to have been made up." Marcus J. Borg and N. T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus (1999), p. 12.

Historian Paul Maier notes, "Many facts from antiquity rest on just one ancient source, while two or three sources in agreement generally render the fact unimpeachable." Paul L. Maier, In the Fullness of Time: A Historian Looks a Christmas, Easter, and the Early Church (1991), p. 197.


As a side note, I’m confident we can reconcile alleged contradictions in the NT, demonstrate traditional authorship of the Gospels/Acts (i.g. The disciple Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew and so on. Just as we would for any other ancient document, see here ), and demonstrate the synoptics were written before 70AD. However, we'll forgo debate over the preceding to avoid rabbit trails and make it more of a challenge for the Rez theory. So, for the sake of argument in this thread we will assume:
  • 1. The Bible is errant and not inspired by God. We'll consider it merely a collection of ancient writings.
    2. The Gospels/Acts are technically anonymous and may or may not be eyewitness accounts.
    3. The Gospels and other Christian/non-Christian accounts contain minor errors and contradictions in secondary details.
    4. The Gospels/Acts were written after 70AD, but no later than 100AD.
    5. Mark was the first Gospel written. The authors of Luke and Matthew used some of Mark as a source for their Gospels.

We could submit many, but to start, here are 5 "facts" that should pass enough of the listed criteria to be considered probable:

FACT 1. Jesus’ crucifixion and death
  • a) Early (and enemy) attestation from the Apostle Paul - (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, 2:15; 1 Corinthians 1:23, 2:2 and early creedal passages in 1 Corinthians 15:3 - ca. 50-60AD)
    b) Multiple attestation in all four Gospels and the Book of Acts (ca. 70-100AD)
    c) Enemy/neutral attestation from Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 18:64 - 96AD)
    d) Enemy/neutral attestation from Roman historian Tacitus (Annals 15:44 - ca. 115AD)
    e) Enemy/neutral attestation from Greek satirical writer Lucian (The Death of Peregrine, 11-13 - ca. 150AD)
    f) Enemy/neutral attestation from Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a - ca. 200AD)
    g) Principle of Embarrassment applies to the humiliating suffering and death of a supposed Messiah and the Son of God (as well as Principle of Dissimilarity from Jewish anticipation of a military type leader in the Messiah).
Atheist NT scholar Gerd Lüdemann acknowledged, "Jesus' death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable." Gerd Ludemann, The Resurrection of Christ, pg 50.

The critical NT scholar and Jesus Seminar co-founder John Dominic Crossan wrote, "Jesus’ death by execution under Pontius Pilate is as sure as anything historical can ever be. For, if no follower of Jesus had written anything for one hundred years after his crucifixion, we would still know about him from two authors not among his supporters. Their names are Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus...We have, in other words, not just Christian witnesses but one major Jewish and one major pagan historian who both agree on three points concerning Jesus: there was a movement, there was an execution because of that movement, but, despite that execution, there was a continuation of the movement." John Dominic Crossan, Who Killed Jesus?, pg. 5

Crossan also said, "Despite the differences between the studied impartiality of Josephus and the sneering partiality of Tacitus, they agree on three rather basic facts. First, there was some sort of a movement connected with Jesus. Second, he was executed by official authority presumably to stop the movement. Third, rather than being stopped, the movement continued to spread. There remain, therefore, these three: movement, execution, continuation. But the greatest of these is continuation." John Dominic Crossan, The Essential Jesus, p. 7.

John P. Meier wrote, "For two obvious reasons practically no one would deny the fact that Jesus was executed by crucifixion: (1) This central event is reported or alluded to not only by the vast majority of NT authors, but also by Josephus and Tacitus...(2) Such an embarrassing event created a major obstacle to converting Jews and Gentiles alike...that the Church struggled to overcome..." (John P. Meier, "The Circle of the Twelve: Did It Exist during Jesus' Public Ministry?", Journal of Biblical Literature 116 [1997] p. 664–665).


FACT 2. The tomb was discovered empty.
  • a) Early attestation from Paul - he implies an empty tomb (1 Cor. 15:3-4)
    b) Multiple attestation from all four Gospels (the very early Pre-Markan Passion source probably contained the empty tomb)
    c) The disciples were accused of stealing Jesus’ body by unbelieving Jews - indirect enemy confirmation that the tomb was empty (Matthew 28, Christian apologist Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho 108 - ca. 150AD; Christian apologist Tertullian De Spectaculis 30 - ca. 200AD)
    d) The principle of embarrassment applies to the empty tomb reported as having been discovered by women
    e) We have no record of Jesus’ corpse being produced only accusations that the disciples stole the body.
    f) Setting the stage for the empty tomb was the honourable burial of Jesus by Joseph of Arimethea (another fact we could admit as number 6 - but won't as it isn't really necessary to do so). It is attested by all four Gospels. As well Paul mentions the burial of Jesus(1 Cor 15). It also is strengthened by the Principle of Embarrassment where a Jewish member of the council, rather than a disciple or family member, that condemned Jesus was reported as honourably burring Jesus. This would have been offensive to the disciples and as such is unlikely to be a fabrication.
Liberal theologian John A. T. Robinson commented on the burial of Jesus, "[it is] one of the earliest and best–attested facts about Jesus." John A. T. Robinson, The Human Face of God (1973), p. 131.

William Wand, a past Oxford University church historian wrote, "All the strictly historical evidence we have is in favour [of the empty tomb], and those scholars who reject it ought to recognize that they do so on some other grounds than that of scientific history." William Wand, Christianity: A Historical Religion? (1972), p. 93-94

NT critic D. H. Van Daalen wrote, "It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions." D.H. Van Daalen, The Real Resurrection(1972), p. 41.


FACT 3. The apostles sincerely believed Jesus rose from the dead and then appeared to them. So sincerely that some were willing to endure persecution and possibly even death because of this belief:

Claims of appearances to the disciples:
  • a) Early (and enemy) attestation from Paul (1 Cor. 15:4-8)
    b) Multiple attestation from all four Gospels (even without the later addition of 16:9-20, early attestation in Mark's Gospel predicts the Rez and appearances in 8:31, 9:31, 10:34 and suggests there will be appearances made by Jesus 14:28, 16:6-7)
    c) Multiple attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 1-5, 10, 13, 17)
    d) Possible neutral/enemy attestation from Tacitus (he may be inadvertently providing evidence that the apostles at least believed Jesus appeared to them in Annals 15:44 when he says, "...[Christianity] thus checked for the moment [by the crucifixion of Jesus], again broke out not only in Judea...")
    e) Possible neutral/enemy attestation from Josephus (he may be reporting that the disciples at least believed Jesus appeared to them in Antiquities 18)
    f) The Principle of Dissimilarity applies to the notion of a man/Messiah resurrecting from the dead before the end of time was contrary to Jewish belief and therefore reduces the odds it was "made up."
    g) Principle of Embarrassment applies to the evidence that some disciples at the first instance did not believe but had doubts that Jesus was alive (Matthew 28:17, Luke 24:36-38, John 20:24-25).



Persecution and death of some disciples:
  • a) Early attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 12 - death of James brother of John)
    b) Early attestation from Clement of Rome (1 Clement 5 - ca. 95AD)
    c) Attestation from Ignatius (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 3:2-3 - ca. 110AD)
    d) Attestation from Polycarp (Letter to the Philippians 9 - ca. 110AD)
    e) Attestation from Dionysius of Corinth (ca. 170AD - quoted by Eusebius Ecclesiastical History 2:25:8)
    f) Attestation from Tertullian (Scorpiace 15 - ca. 200AD)
    g) Attestation from Origen (Contra Celsum 2:56,77 - ca. 230-250AD)
Atheist NT scholar Gerd Ludemann said, "It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus' death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ." Gerd Ludemann, What Really Happened to Jesus? A Historical Approach to the Resurrection, (1995) p. 80. (It should be noted Ludemann believes these were visions)

Paula Fredriksen, a sceptical historian and scholar of religious studies, said in an interview with Peter Jennings (ABC) entitled The Search for Jesus in July 2000, "I know in [the disciples] own terms what they saw was the raised Jesus. That's what they say and then all the historic evidence we have afterwards attest to their conviction that that's what they saw. I'm not saying that they really did see the raised Jesus. I wasn't there. I don't know what they saw. But I do know that as a historian that they must have seen something."



FACT 4. Paul, an enemy and persecutor of the church (Acts 8:3, 1 Cor. 15:9, Gal. 1:13) was transformed and became a prolific apostle because of his belief that a risen Jesus appeared to him. He was persecuted and reported as martyred.

Appearances of Jesus to Paul and his conversion:
  • a) Early, multiple and eyewitness attestation from Paul himself (1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1, Phil. 3)
    b) Multiple and early attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 9, 22, 26)
Paul’s suffering/martyrdom:
  • a) Early, multiple and eyewitness attestation from Paul for his suffering (2 Cor. 11, Phil. 1)
    b) Multiple and early attestation from Book of Acts (ch. 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 21, 23)
    c) Early attestation from Clement of Rome (1 Clement 5)
    d) Attestation from Polycarp (Letter to the Philippians 9:2)
    e) Attestation from Tertullian (Scorpiace 15 and also quoted by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History 2:25:8)
    f) Attestation from Dionysius of Corinth (c. 170AD - quoted by Eusebius in EH 2:25:8)
    g) Attestation from Origen (Commentary on Genesis as quoted by Eusebius in EH 3:1)
FACT 5. James, brother of Jesus (Mark 6:3) and sceptic of His claims before the appearance of Jesus to him, was transformed and became a leader in the Church in Jerusalem. He was reported as martyred.
  • a) Principle of Embarrassment applies as Jesus' own family and brother James were described as sceptical prior to appearances (multiply attested - Matthew 13:57, Mark 3:21, 6:3-4, John 7:4-5)
    b) Jesus appeared alive to James after His death (early and enemy attestation from Paul - 1 Cor. 15:7)
    c) James is later described as an apostle by Paul(Gal 1:19) and leader in the early church in Jerusalem (Gal 2:9,12 and Acts 15)
    d) Suffered and martyred - Enemy/neutral attestation from Josephus (ca. 96AD - Antiquities 20), further multiple attestation from Hegesippus (ca. 160AD - as quoted by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History 2:23), and Clement of Alexandria (ca. 180-200AD as quoted by Eusebius in EH 2:1).

Note that none of these 5 facts are supernatural or hard to believe on their own. They are all well attested with early and multiple sources. By any reasonable historical methodology these should be considered solid facts. Keep in mind on their own each fact presented does not build a strong case for the Rez. However, it is as a collective unit we must consider the evidence. We are looking for the best explanation that accounts for ALL the evidence. I posit the theory that God resurrected Jesus from the dead best accounts for ALL the evidence and combines explanatory power and scope given the context of Jesus' life and the claims made of Him and by Him.

Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?


Additional considerations and requests:
1. Persons who side with the weight of evidence, what the evidence suggests, and cogent arguments supported by good evidence could be described as taking a rational position. We would be justified in deeming "irrational" a position that denies evidence with out good reason and opposes strong arguments to side with weak unsupported arguments. On this, we can all agree.

2. As history deals more with degrees of probability rather than absolute certainty I would suggest the following. A single theory that has explanatory scope and power, given the context of surrounding events, and accounts for ALL the evidence should be considered more probable over a compilation of several theories stacked upon one another in an ad hoc manner. Especially if those ad hoc theories are speculation rich and evidence poor.

3. Please supply the methodology/criteria for questioning any one of these 5 facts (or any other evidence one wishes to refute or admit for consideration). We can then apply this methodology to other ancient historical facts. This will help us determine if the objection has credibility or is merely stemming from a bias against either the supernatural or Christianity. Simply making the objection, for example, that we cannot trust anything written by a Christian because they were biased is very problematic. Applying that overly simplistic criterion to the rest of ancient history would call almost all of it into question (even most of modern history).

I'll look forward to reading the responses. O:)

Goose

Re: Evidence for the Resurrection

Post #121

Post by Goose »

Bernee mistakenly thought in another thread that I had conceded this debate because I didn't respond to his post. Actually, I didn't respond because I didn't perceive anything of real substance offered by bernee or anything that had not already been addressed elsewhere. But to bernee's credit he was one of the few that actually attempted to answer the question for debate and I never responded - for that I apologize to you bernee.
Goose wrote: FACT 2. The tomb was discovered empty.
bernee51 wrote:You are assuming the person known as Jesus was actually placed in a tomb and not dumped on the garbage heap for the wild dogs to eat.
Actually bernee, you are the one that is making an assumption for which there is no direct evidence for support. I'm merely going with what the evidence that we have suggests.
bernee51 wrote:How do you know he was placed in the tomb? Let me guess...the gospels!!!
Let me guess...you don't like the gospels. At any rate, you need to read the OP more carefully. Paul also tells us Jesus was buried in 1 Corinthians 15. In Jewish custom to be buried was to place the body in a tomb. That's multiple and early attestation to an event.

Goose wrote: FACT 3. The apostles sincerely believed Jesus rose from the dead and then appeared to them. So sincerely that some were willing to endure persecution and possibly even death because of this belief:
bernee51 wrote: Performative utterances.
Peformance utternaces proves the accounts to be false how?
bernee51 wrote:This 'fact' is only known from biblical sources. The writers obviously believed what they had been told and were writing was true. Doesn't make it so.
Are you saying you deny that the disciples believed they had experiences with the risen Jesus? If so, on what evidence?


Goose wrote: FACT 4. Paul, an enemy and persecutor of the church (Acts 8:3, 1 Cor. 15:9, Gal. 1:13) was transformed and became a prolific apostle because of his belief that a risen Jesus appeared to him. He was persecuted and reported as martyred.
bernee51 wrote:The source of this 'fact'. Could it be the bible?
bernee, did you even read the OP?

That's also the second or third time you've poo-poo'd the Bible as your response. Historians don't entirely reject the bible or these facts. On what grounds do you?
bernee51 wrote:Paul was an hysteric, a misogynistic misanthrope who hijacked the story, a story which he no doubt believed, for his own ends.
Is that a pet theory or do you have some direct evidence to support it? Remember the OP bernee - ad hoc theories rich in speculation and poor in evidence don't fly.


Goose wrote: FACT 5. James, brother of Jesus (Mark 6:3) and sceptic of His claims before the appearance of Jesus to him, was transformed and became a leader in the Church in Jerusalem. He was reported as martyred.
bernee51 wrote:The 'existence' of James is attested where - let me guess - the gospels? Certainly a reliable historical source.
Seriously bernee, now I KNOW you didn't read the OP. There are sources outside the gospels that attest to James. So you don't believe James existed, eh?


Goose wrote: Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?
bernee51 wrote:Who started the myth? Could it have been Mark - the first author of the wonderful advenures of the god/man. Nothing in Mark indicates that he actually knew Jesus in person. Any real acquintance would have been legible and discernable in Marks writngs - it is not. He credits Jesus with an existence in the same way one who witnesses a desert mirage honestly believes in the reality of the palm trees in the oasis. Mark relates in very much the writing style of the period a fiction whose authenticity he attests to in good faith.
Let's say just for fun that was true - Mark started a myth. Now you need a separate theory to account for Paul's writings that predate Mark. And why John, a book that doesn't depend on Mark, accounts similiar things. More ad hoc theories are needed.
bernee51 wrote:The gospel is written with conversion in mind aimed squarely at the folk who need convincing. The devices used a common currency of such works of propoganda - a fall back on the miraculous. It is a rehash of the literary style of the ancients - one which took it for granted that to transform a mortal into a crowd-pleasing prophet and indeed saviour the use of embellishment was a given.
This pet theory fails miserably by the simple fact there are embarrassing elements in the gospels. If the writers were trying desperately to convince by producing embellished propaganda they were not only liars but also very stupid for including the embarrassing aspects. If they were cunning enough to deceive they wouldn't have been stupid enough to leave in the embarrassing stuff.
bernee51 wrote:Jesus was a concept, a construct - a distillation of the aspirations of a turbulent time. The gospels are examples of what John Langshaw Austin termed performative utterances - simple declaring something is true creates its truth. The gospels writers, and for that matter Paul, did not set out to deceive - they said what they believed was true and and believed the truth of what they said. None of them met with the physical Jesus. They credited the fiction which was Jesus with a real existence. After that - the very human trait of self interest did the rest
What does Performative Utterances prove? Does it prove the claims of the NT false? No it does not. It's a Red Herring. I can apply the Performative Utterance logic to anything. Anyone that sincerely believes something believes it because they just kept telling themselves it's true. It's an all too convenient pet theory to hand wave the evidence. Maybe that's what has happened to you bernee, Performative Utterance. ;)

It also fails to answer the most important question: Why would they convince themselves of something that would only lead to strife and potentially place them in harm's way when there was no evidence of it's truth? You need a separate theory for this. The one you've presented has little explanatory power and scope and requires more unsupported ad hoc theories.

User avatar
Cathar1950
Site Supporter
Posts: 10503
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: Michigan(616)
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #122

Post by Cathar1950 »

Goose, again you are confusing details in the story for facts. The disciples are part of the story not evidence for the truth of the stories claims.
That's also the second or third time you've poo-poo'd the Bible as your response. Historians don't entirely reject the bible or these facts. On what grounds do you?
Obviously you don't read all of the historians.
This pet theory fails miserably by the simple fact there are embarrassing elements in the gospels. If the writers were trying desperately to convince by producing embellished propaganda they were not only liars but also very stupid for including the embarrassing aspects. If they were cunning enough to deceive they wouldn't have been stupid enough to leave in the embarrassing stuff.
Please tell us all about the “embarrassing elements”.
How do you know how stupid or cunning they were?
If you are going to use someone's argument you could at least give some details.
After you list them maybe I can explain them to you.
It also fails to answer the most important question: Why would they convince themselves of something that would only lead to strife and potentially place them in harm's way when there was no evidence of it's truth? You need a separate theory for this. The one you've presented has little explanatory power and scope and requires more unsupported ad hoc theories.
How are you borrowed apologetics not ad hoc arguments?
What about all the people that died because they didn't believe?
There were more of them killed by the church after it became state sponsored then were ever killed by the Romans in the first three centuries of limited and sporadic persecutions of mostly the leaders, some even begged to die.

Goose

Post #123

Post by Goose »

Cathar1950 wrote:Goose, again you are confusing details in the story for facts. The disciples are part of the story not evidence for the truth of the stories claims.
Please cathar, set me straight. Show me that it's just a made up story.
Goose wrote:That's also the second or third time you've poo-poo'd the Bible as your response. Historians don't entirely reject the bible or these facts. On what grounds do you?
Cathar1950 wrote:Obviously you don't read all of the historians.
Which historians reject the entire Bible as a myth?
Goose wrote:This pet theory fails miserably by the simple fact there are embarrassing elements in the gospels. If the writers were trying desperately to convince by producing embellished propaganda they were not only liars but also very stupid for including the embarrassing aspects. If they were cunning enough to deceive they wouldn't have been stupid enough to leave in the embarrassing stuff.
Cathar1950 wrote:Please tell us all about the “embarrassing elements”.
How do you know how stupid or cunning they were?
If you are going to use someone's argument you could at least give some details.
After you list them maybe I can explain them to you.
Why don't you start with the ones in th OP.
Goose wrote:It also fails to answer the most important question: Why would they convince themselves of something that would only lead to strife and potentially place them in harm's way when there was no evidence of it's truth? You need a separate theory for this. The one you've presented has little explanatory power and scope and requires more unsupported ad hoc theories.
Cathar1950 wrote:How are you borrowed apologetics not ad hoc arguments?
Is that your argument? Good one!
Cathar1950 wrote:What about all the people that died because they didn't believe?
What about 'em?

twobitsmedia

Post #124

Post by twobitsmedia »

Cathar1950 wrote:
Obviously you don't read all of the historians.
And you have?

User avatar
The Duke of Vandals
Banned
Banned
Posts: 754
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:48 pm

Post #125

Post by The Duke of Vandals »

Please cathar, set me straight. Show me that it's just a made up story.


What we've explained to you time and again and what you've time and again failed utterly to address is the fact that you're assuming the rez took place without providing a scrap of credible evidence. Your entire argument is a collection of assumptions, fallacies*, and special pleadings.

This thread ended on page two where I challenged your double standards and you failed to meet that challenge. Let me refresh your memory:
  • Please give five examples of instances where reports of supernatural events are considered historical fact. If you are unable to provide these, please concede to the following:

    The resurrection isn't a historical event because of the supernatural claims it makes. We don't treat reports of flying spahgetti monsters (FSM), UFO's, or the like seriously without additional evidence. In the case of UFO's, we may be compelled by a particularly detailed account to conclude the speaks saw something but we then demand further evidence before we can conclude little green men.

    Christians are using a double standard for their cosmic jewish zombie (CJZ). They want the account of the CJZ to be treated as an historical issue to avoid having to provide evidence for that which did not happen.

    Also, ss we've already established in other threads, the rez did not take place. It was a fictional event created by Jews around the 7th decade of the first century.

    The evidence provided in the op is nothing more than a series of unsupported claims attempting to back up other unsupported claims.

    I'm tired of this silly double standard. I'm tired of Christians trying to claim the CJZ is real. So provide your five instances of supernatural events that we consider historical on the word of eyewitnesses and we'll talk.

    Without them? Well, you're dead in the water.



Without those examples I asked for, your special pleading is plain to see.



*like shifting the burden of proof as you did above.


/thread

Goose

Post #126

Post by Goose »

The Duke of Vandals wrote: What we've explained to you time and again and what you've time and again failed utterly to address is the fact that you're assuming the rez took place without providing a scrap of credible evidence. Your entire argument is a collection of assumptions, fallacies*, and special pleadings.
Yup, in your opinion the OP contains no credible evidence. Gotchya.
The Duke of Vandals wrote: This thread ended on page two where I challenged your double standards and you failed to meet that challenge. Let me refresh your memory:
That's your imigination getting the better of you, Duke. Your off topic challenges didn't end the thread as evidenced by the 11 pages that followed (which in a round about way answered your challenges). Oh, and I called you on the double standard at the end of my last post to you.

Duke, still beating around the bush, eh? You've had how many posts in this thread and have still not answerd the question for debate. I'll refresh your memory:

Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?

User avatar
Cathar1950
Site Supporter
Posts: 10503
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: Michigan(616)
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #127

Post by Cathar1950 »

twobitsmedia wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
Obviously you don't read all of the historians.
And you have?
I see you have nothing to say and even wasted your one line.
I didn't claim historians take the Bible historically or that they are considered facts. So why do you ask me if I have read all the historians?
I have read enough to know you have nothing to say and Goose's statement is irrelevant and untrue.
Goose wrote:Historians don't entirely reject the bible or these facts.
Historians also don't accept the “entire Bible” as historical or factual. I don't have to read them all to understand that much about the subject.
Which historians reject the entire Bible as a myth?
Why is it now the “entire Bible” when the topic is the Resurrection?
Some of it is reworked pious history and propaganda.

User avatar
bernee51
Site Supporter
Posts: 7813
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:52 am
Location: Australia

Re: Evidence for the Resurrection

Post #128

Post by bernee51 »

Goose wrote:
Goose wrote: FACT 2. The tomb was discovered empty.
bernee51 wrote:You are assuming the person known as Jesus was actually placed in a tomb and not dumped on the garbage heap for the wild dogs to eat.
Actually bernee, you are the one that is making an assumption for which there is no direct evidence for support. I'm merely going with what the evidence that we have suggests.
There is no evidence of either. Historically the bodies of criminals were thrown on the garbage. it is reasonable to assume that is what happened to the criminal known as Jesus. The whoee tomb story is not mentioned anywhere other than in the book of myth and metaphor known as the bible.
Goose wrote:
bernee51 wrote:How do you know he was placed in the tomb? Let me guess...the gospels!!!
Let me guess...you don't like the gospels. At any rate, you need to read the OP more carefully. Paul also tells us Jesus was buried in 1 Corinthians 15.
paul was not there - his story is hearsay.
Goose wrote: In Jewish custom to be buried was to place the body in a tomb. That's multiple and early attestation to an event.
it was Roman custom to therow criminals in the garbage. You have described multiple and early reporting of hearsay.
Goose wrote:
Goose wrote: FACT 3. The apostles sincerely believed Jesus rose from the dead and then appeared to them. So sincerely that some were willing to endure persecution and possibly even death because of this belief:
bernee51 wrote: Performative utterances.
Peformance utternaces proves the accounts to be false how?
They offer an alternate explanation. They are no more proff than what you present as 'proof'
Goose wrote:
Goose wrote:
bernee51 wrote:This 'fact' is only known from biblical sources. The writers obviously believed what they had been told and were writing was true. Doesn't make it so.
Are you saying you deny that the disciples believed they had experiences with the risen Jesus? If so, on what evidence?
I'm sure the early disciples beieved a lot of things. They may have even beleived their collegues has experiences with the 'risen Jesus'. There is, hiowever, no evidence of a risen Jesus OTHER than hearsay.
Goose wrote: That's also the second or third time you've poo-poo'd the Bible as your response. Historians don't entirely reject the bible or these facts. On what grounds do you?
For the same reason I reject the Bhagavad Gita as a historical account of a war between relatives. It is myth and metaphor.
Goose wrote:
bernee51 wrote:Paul was an hysteric, a misogynistic misanthrope who hijacked the story, a story which he no doubt believed, for his own ends.
Is that a pet theory or do you have some direct evidence to support it? Remember the OP bernee - ad hoc theories rich in speculation and poor in evidence don't fly.
Paul's own words condemn him. I started a thread some time ago to discuss this.
Goose wrote:
Goose wrote: FACT 5. James, brother of Jesus (Mark 6:3) and sceptic of His claims before the appearance of Jesus to him, was transformed and became a leader in the Church in Jerusalem. He was reported as martyred.
bernee51 wrote:The 'existence' of James is attested where - let me guess - the gospels? Certainly a reliable historical source.
Seriously bernee, now I KNOW you didn't read the OP. There are sources outside the gospels that attest to James. So you don't believe James existed, eh?
Sources or source? Josephus? The existnce of James and his beliefs does not attest to the risen Christ. it attests to james existence and beliefs.

Rather busy right now - I will attempt to get to the remainder later.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

twobitsmedia

Post #129

Post by twobitsmedia »

Cathar1950 wrote:
I see you have nothing to say and even wasted your one line.
Not if its gets a response.
I didn't claim historians take the Bible historically or that they are considered facts. So why do you ask me if I have read all the historians?
Because your question was whether Goose had read all the historians? I am sure you have not. Are you aware of the points you make?

I have read enough to know you have nothing to say and Goose's statement is irrelevant and untrue.
So, when is enough?
Goose wrote:Historians don't entirely reject the bible or these facts.
Historians also don't accept the “entire Bible” as historical or factual. I don't have to read them all to understand that much about the subject.
So who does? Your reasoning is circular. You learned all you info from reading, but it appears selective. The fact is that some historians do accept the Biblical history. I presume the ones that do, do not meet your criteria, or reading material list, for that matter.


Which historians reject the entire Bible as a myth?
I would like to hear you answer to this, also.
This is not an answer:
Why is it now the “entire Bible” when the topic is the Resurrection?
Some of it is reworked pious history and propaganda.

User avatar
The Duke of Vandals
Banned
Banned
Posts: 754
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:48 pm

Post #130

Post by The Duke of Vandals »

Goose wrote:Yup, in your opinion the OP contains no credible evidence. Gotchya.
Listen douche rocket, I'm not in the mood to watch you ass up a thread that should have ended a long time ago. Concentrate on forming an argument and leave being clever to those who are qualified.
Your off topic challenges...


I challenged you to establish that supernatural events can be treated as historical events (which is what you're attempting to do with the rez). You have no choice to call it off-topic because we both know that you don't want to deal with the simple truth that self-fathering cosmic jewish zombies aren't historical claims nor are they supported with any real evidence.
Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?
There is no evidence presented. You're arbitrarily calling the claims made in the gospel evidence and invoking several special pleadings to do so. Your op is nonsense... like asking, "Is Superman the best explanation for the five evidences that show that Metropolis should have been blown up, but wasn't?"

Post Reply