Santa, do Christians believe in him? If not, why not.

[dangerdan]

Ok, you're probably wondering what Santa has to do with Christianity? bear with me here....

The topic of Santa was brought up in the thread "Everyone should be agnostic?, and with it brought some interesting topics to do with belief systems, well worthy of a new thread.

Now why is this in a Christianity forum? I think it has some rich insights into Christian epistemology - why they believe in some things and not others. I was pondering putting this in the philosophy sub-forum, but I feel it’s more relating to pure Christian thought (though if moderators feel otherwise then that's ok).

So, let the debate begin! I do not intend the question to be demeaning or disrespectful, but merely a candid enquiry. So with no further ado - Do Christians believe in Santa? If not, why not.

[dangerdan]

Whoops, I stuffed up the quote, I really should use that preview button…

[TQWcS]

Please do not try to persuade me of his nonexistence by using scientific arguments - Santa is Santa and is beyond your understanding...

Santa would not be beyond our understanding because he is human and is not omniscient.

The reason the Santa arguement doesn't work is because my parents told me Santa was a lie and they were the creator of this belief. If Jesus came up to me and told me Christianity was a lie then the arguement may have a case.

[Nyril]

Santa would not be beyond our understanding because he is human and is not omniscient.

But, the texts clearly state that Santa knows if you're naughty or nice, he knows everything you've done and can factor it all together for every person on the planet.

If that's not omniscient, I don't know what is.

[Nyril]

Every year, on TV.

Good point TVs never lie and weather stations are always correct!

But they all have it on TV, NBC, CBS, ABC. Every local news station does some variant with Santa on the weather, warning him about thunder storms, rain clouds, and the ungodly weather of partly cloudy.

[The Hungry Atheist]

The reason the Santa arguement doesn't work is because my parents told me Santa was a lie and they were the creator of this belief. If Jesus came up to me and told me Christianity was a lie then the arguement may have a case.

Isn't that rather like refusing to abandon one's belief in Santa until a big fat man with a red suit and white beard and sackful of presents comes down your chimney to tell you that he's just a myth?

[fonso]

The reason the Santa arguement doesn't work is because my parents told me Santa was a lie and they were the creator of this belief. If Jesus came up to me and told me Christianity was a lie then the arguement may have a case.

Well, who knows if your great, great, great ^ 20 grandparents created Jesus too? They'd be too dead to tell you that he was a lie. Not to say he is, but don't you think the argument is similar?

[TQWcS]

Essentially my great great great great great great great great great great great grandparents did till me it is fake because it has been a successive line of you tell the kids when they are young that Santa exists then when they are 7 or 8 you break the news to them.

[concerro]

If santa is real then what about this early 1990 report
santa is not real

[Arch]

I think most of you christians are missing the point of this thread and the point made here.

Quote:
I had already "debunked" the Santa Claus story


Are you trying to suggest by this that Santa does not exist?

I know that he exists:

1 Presents appear at Christmas - who brings them if not Santa?

2 My parents told me that he exists ergo he exists

3 There are many references to Santa in books so he must exist

4 Just because Santa chooses not to show himself to you does not mean he does not exist

5 Santa is benevolent - just because he does not give presents to those in the third world and allows people to starve at Christmas does not disprove his existence

6 To ensure he is able to deliver all of the presents in just one night there are really three Santas and these three Santas are both the same Santa and different Santas all at the same time

7 No I have never seen Santa - what a silly question - I do not need to see Santa I simply have faith in his existence

8 Please do not try to persuade me of his nonexistence by using scientific arguments - Santa is Santa and is beyond your understanding...

This person wasn't trying to convince you that Santa is truely real at least I hope not. What he is pointing out here is that the same reasoning used to express your belief in jesus or god ro whatever can be used to explain a belief in santa as well.

A person with this same arguement (just like to one for god or jesus) wouldn't be convinced by any facts or obvious contradictions in his belief, that Santa doesn't exist.

The same way you can't convince a christian that his or her views on god and religion are obvously distorted. No matter how many times their doctrines contradict themselves or no matter how much logic and tangible proof is against them.

With this type of thinking and reasoning you could basically believe in anything. Including Santa!!!!

[potwalloper.]

If santa is real then what about this early 1990 report

Ah but you miss the point that, being supernatural, Santa is not subject to the normal laws of physics so none of the arguments in the article therefore apply.

Let's look at the facts for a moment:

1 Christianity has been around for around 2,000 years;

2 Santa pre-dates Christianity and may be one of a number of pre-Christian pagan Gods (eg Befana, Hold Nickar, Mikoula, the god of harvest etc) that were "Christianized" to facilitate the spread of Christianity (indeed Christmas was a pagan festival long before Christianity came to Northern Europe and the concept of Santa has little to do with Saint Nicholaus)

So - based on age Santa wins hands down

3 Christianity is spread by parents telling their children that it is true

4 Santaism is spread by parents telling their children that he exists.

So - not much difference there then

5 There are very few reports of people seeing Christ each year

6 There are millions of reports each year of children seeing Santa

So - once again a victory for Santa

7 Christianity contains many references to events that lack a rational explanation

8 Santaism contains many references to events that lack a rational explanation

Pretty similar...

9 Christianity has been passed on by word of mouth and by books

10 Santaism has been passed on by word of mouth and by books

Once again not much difference

11 Christian belief systems (love thy neighbour, thou shalt not kill, rejection of material wealth) do not reflect the actuality of Western civilisation

12 Santaism belief systems (satisfaction through material gain) closely reflect Western civilisations

A win for Santa methinks

13 Christianity is based upon reward and punishment (be good and you go to heaven, be bad and you go to hell)

14 Santaism is based upon reward and punishment (be good and you get a present, be naughty and you get no present)

Little difference

15 There is no objective evidence to support a suggestion that Christianity is based on fact

16 There are millions of presents, numerous sightings, bells ringing, red-nosed reindeers, millions of letters sent to Santa every year - I could go on

So Santa appears to be rather more real

17 Christianity contains references to creatures that can fly (angels) for which there is no explanation

18 Santaism contains references to creatures that can fly (reindeer) for which there is no explanation

Pretty similar

19 Christianity is based upon the concept of a benevolent God

20 Santaism is based upon the concept of a benevolent deity

Difference?

Looking at the two I would have to say that in purely objective terms Santaism wins and, on the balance of probabilities, it appears more likely than not that Santa exists rather than a Christian God.

You could, of course, try to prove me wrong but be careful that the arguments that you use are not those that atheists use when trying to argue against the existence of a Christian God...

I feel like a born again Santaist - thanks dangerdan!