Ten things you didn't know about Judaism

[cnorman18]

Like many Christians, I once thought I knew all about Judaism; but, also like many Christians, I actually only knew a little about first-century Judaism from the point of view of first-century Christians, and practically nothing about modern Judaism as it is practiced today.

Just to get this party started: here are ten things you probably didn't know about Judaism.

1. Jews do not believe that one must be Jewish to go to Heaven. An ancient dictum in the Talmud states that "the righteous of all nations have a place in the Life to Come." That means that anyone, of any belief or none, can be "saved" if God deems him or her "righteous"--and only God gets to say what that means.

2. Belief in Heaven is not particularly important in Judaism anyway. An afterlife is not mentioned in the Torah, and very many Jews do not believe in a life after death. Those who do, as a rule, do not speculate on what it might be like.

3. Jews are not generally concerned with "salvation." The subject is of very little interest to us. We believe that God is the sole Judge, and that we have no warrant to anticipate His judgment in any way. Our concern is proper conduct in this life; we leave the next life, if there is one, to God.

4. Jews do not pronounce any other religion to be "false." Excepting only the literal worship of idols as divine beings, Judaism has no opinion on the truth or falsity of any other faith. We claim to know only how God has chosen to speak to us; if He has chosen to speak to another people in another manner, that is no business of ours.

5. There is no hierarchy in Judaism. There is no Jewish Pope, no Supreme Council, no person or body that is qualified or empowered to make pronouncements on the proper beliefs or practices of Jews. Every congregation is independent; even the broad "movements" in Judaism--Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox--are a matter of voluntary association on the part of independent congregations, and have no power to prescribe practice or doctrine. There are advisory committees, but that is their only function.

6. There is no "doctrine" in Judaism anyway. Judaism has no Creed, no Confession of Faith, no list of specified beliefs or articles of faith. "Beliefs" in Judaism are very much a matter of individual choice, and are of relatively little importance anyway. No one much cares what anyone BELIEVES; we are concerned with what they DO.

7. There is no such thing as a "Messianic Jew." Jews who believe in Jesus are properly called "Christians." There are few, if any, beliefs that Jews are required to hold, but there are a few that are forbidden; and belief in Jesus as the Messiah is one of them.

8. There is no Jewish "race." Though the Jewish religion began with members of a single family, that of Abraham, it has accepted converts from the very beginning, and there are Jews of every ethnicity on Earth. There are communities of Chinese Jews, Indian Jews, Black African Jews, Arab Jews, and Persian Jews that go back for millenia; and very many literal descendants of Abraham (of Ishmael and Esau, to name a son and grandson) are not Jewish.

9. Jews do not read the Bible as literal history, and never have. The early chapters of Genesis are spiritual and symbolic, and not literal. Tne Hebrew word "Adam" means "Mankind" as well as being a personal name; and Jewish scholars estimated the time of the Creation as being around 15.3 billion years ago--about the same time as modern astrophysicists--at least as early as the first century of the common era. There are very few Jewish "creationists." And it is, after all, OUR Book.

10. Jews do not believe the Bible is the supreme authority on faith, belief and practice, but the tradition of interpretation of the Bible as expressed by the consensus of the Jewish community. The Bible is opaque and unintelligible without the guidance of that tradition, and no individual human has the right or the capacity to determine its meaning and intent without its guidance.

Let the questions--and the flames--begin.

[OnceConvinced]

Hi Cnorman and welcome! You definitely won't get any flaming from me. It is most definitely true that most Christians have not clue as to how Jew's see the Old Testament... no wait! The Hebrew Texts. If they read the texts as the average Jew does, they would get an entirely different picture of the bible.

I had some very heated debates a few years ago with a Jewish man on another website and it was certainly an eye opener. One thing it did make me think about was that it was actually ok to take some of the biblical stories as being just that - stories and not history. If Christians did that, they would not have to spend so much time defending the bible and looking like fools.

I hope you stay around as an active member to give a very vital and different perspective on the Hebrew Texts than what we normally see.

[cnorman18]

Thanks very much. I appreciate the kind words.

BTW, I am not offended by the phrase "Old Testament," though some Jews are. If you want to know what qe Jews call our Bible, it's "Tanakh." Not "THE Tanakh"--just "Tanakh," as in "It says in Tanakh..."

The word comes from an acronym, the Hebrew letters T, N, K, for Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim, or Law, Prophets, and Writings.

Thanks for the welcome. We'll see how well my next is received, over on the Theology board, I think.

[McCulloch]

1. Jews do not believe that one must be Jewish to go to Heaven. An ancient dictum in the Talmud states that "the righteous of all nations have a place in the Life to Come." That means that anyone, of any belief or none, can be "saved" if God deems him or her "righteous"--and only God gets to say what that means.

That is very nice and inclusive, an improvement over some other exclusive monotheisms. But it has about as much basis in evidence as all of the other claims of an afterlife.

2. Belief in Heaven is not particularly important in Judaism anyway. An afterlife is not mentioned in the Torah, and very many Jews do not believe in a life after death. Those who do, as a rule, do not speculate on what it might be like.

Sensible thinking. However, it still shared with other religions an unfounded belief in spiritual or supernatural being(s).

3. Jews are not generally concerned with "salvation." The subject is of very little interest to us. We believe that God is the sole Judge, and that we have no warrant to anticipate His judgment in any way. Our concern is proper conduct in this life; we leave the next life, if there is one, to God.

Aren't good judges predicable?

4. Jews do not pronounce any other religion to be "false." Excepting only the literal worship of idols as divine beings, Judaism has no opinion on the truth or falsity of any other faith. We claim to know only how God has chosen to speak to us; if He has chosen to speak to another people in another manner, that is no business of ours.

By believing in a particular God and certain attributes of that God, you imply that those beliefs which contradict what you believe about that God must be false.

6. There is no "doctrine" in Judaism anyway. Judaism has no Creed, no Confession of Faith, no list of specified beliefs or articles of faith. "Beliefs" in Judaism are very much a matter of individual choice, and are of relatively little importance anyway. No one much cares what anyone BELIEVES; we are concerned with what they DO.

So I can believe that there is no God and that God has no instructions for humanity and that God does not judge and be a Jew?

7. There is no such thing as a "Messianic Jew." Jews who believe in Jesus are properly called "Christians." There are few, if any, beliefs that Jews are required to hold, but there are a few that are forbidden; and belief in Jesus as the Messiah is one of them.

So there is a doctrine after all.

Let the questions--and the flames--begin.

Your expression of religion is certainly less objectionable than many, but it is still religion and to my understanding based on flimsy evidence. That's as close as I can get to a flame for you.

[arayhay]

Like many Christians, I once thought I knew all about Judaism; but, also like many Christians, I actually only knew a little about first-century Judaism from the point of view of first-century Christians, and practically nothing about modern Judaism as it is practiced today.

At one time I also thought this was the case as well. But now I fail to see a 'first century christianity'. The writings refereed to as the new testament are a Jewish account of Jews who believe Jesus/Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah, not the founder of christianity.

Just to get this party started: here are ten things you probably didn't know about Judaism.

You mean modern Judaism don't you ?? You start out talking about Judaism in general, but you spend most of your time on modern Judaism.

1. Jews do not believe that one must be Jewish to go to Heaven. An ancient dictum in the Talmud states that "the righteous of all nations have a place in the Life to Come." That means that anyone, of any belief or none, can be "saved" if God deems him or her "righteous"--and only God gets to say what that means.

2. Belief in Heaven is not particularly important in Judaism anyway. An afterlife is not mentioned in the Torah, and very many Jews do not believe in a life after death. Those who do, as a rule, do not speculate on what it might be like.

3. Jews are not generally concerned with "salvation." The subject is of very little interest to us. We believe that God is the sole Judge, and that we have no warrant to anticipate His judgment in any way. Our concern is proper conduct in this life; we leave the next life, if there is one, to God.

4. Jews do not pronounce any other religion to be "false." Excepting only the literal worship of idols as divine beings, Judaism has no opinion on the truth or falsity of any other faith. We claim to know only how God has chosen to speak to us; if He has chosen to speak to another people in another manner, that is no business of ours.

Very interesting points that challenge a lot of preconceived notions about what Jews believe.

5. There is no hierarchy in Judaism. There is no Jewish Pope, no Supreme Council, no person or body that is qualified or empowered to make pronouncements on the proper beliefs or practices of Jews. Every congregation is independent; even the broad "movements" in Judaism--Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox--are a matter of voluntary association on the part of independent congregations, and have no power to prescribe practice or doctrine. There are advisory committees, but that is their only function.

Here is where your transition starts. You fail to mention the Sanhedrin that was in existence not only in the first century, but also prior to the first century as well. This body of Jewish men, within the sole context of Judaism is neglected in your 10 points.

6. There is no "doctrine" in Judaism anyway. Judaism has no Creed, no Confession of Faith, no list of specified beliefs or articles of faith. "Beliefs" in Judaism are very much a matter of individual choice, and are of relatively little importance anyway. No one much cares what anyone BELIEVES; we are concerned with what they DO.

What about the 18/19 benedictions ?? Seems to me that if something is restated EVERY Shabbat, it would hold some great importants. Especially when one of them, the 19th, exiled those who wouldn't say it. You bring this up in your next point.

7. There is no such thing as a "Messianic Jew." Jews who believe in Jesus are properly called "Christians." There are few, if any, beliefs that Jews are required to hold, but there are a few that are forbidden; and belief in Jesus as the Messiah is one of them.

I think history shows something very different from your view. The first century was a hot- bed for the coming of the Messiah. Only Jews were looking for the Messiah. What followed was STRICTLY Jewish in believe, context and content. christianity was superimposed over the top of HISTORY at a later time to give credibility to a NEW cult.

8. There is no Jewish "race." Though the Jewish religion began with members of a single family, that of Abraham, it has accepted converts from the very beginning, and there are Jews of every ethnicity on Earth. There are communities of Chinese Jews, Indian Jews, Black African Jews, Arab Jews, and Persian Jews that go back for millenia; and very many literal descendants of Abraham (of Ishmael and Esau, to name a son and grandson) are not Jewish.

Sadly there are 11 tribes missing when people refer to the Jewish people. Most certainly 'OTHERS" belong and are included when refereing to ISRAEL, but to say the Jews are not a race, separate from religious Jews is not accurate.

9. Jews do not read the Bible as literal history, and never have. The early chapters of Genesis are spiritual and symbolic, and not literal. Tne Hebrew word "Adam" means "Mankind" as well as being a personal name; and Jewish scholars estimated the time of the Creation as being around 15.3 billion years ago--about the same time as modern astrophysicists--at least as early as the first century of the common era. There are very few Jewish "creationists." And it is, after all, OUR Book.

It is your book.

10. Jews do not believe the Bible is the supreme authority on faith, belief and practice, but the tradition of interpretation of the Bible as expressed by the consensus of the Jewish community. The Bible is opaque and unintelligible without the guidance of that tradition, and no individual human has the right or the capacity to determine its meaning and intent without its guidance.

Are you talking about the Mishna / oral law ????

Let the questions--and the flames--begin.

I hope to talk more about these and other issues. Welcome.

[cnorman18]

To arayhay:

Of course, I am speaking of modern Judaism. I regret not being more specific.

It seems clear that Mark and Luke were not Jews; there is also a good deal of speculation that Paul of Tarsus was not Jewish, in spite of his claims. I refer you to David Klinghoffer's book, "Why the Jews Rejected Jesus," for that discussion.

Sorry, according to Jewish law, a Jew is a Jew. Ethnicity is irrelevant. Since Jews have accepted converts since Moses's day, and since there have been mass conversions of whole peoples (notably the Khazars) who were then incorporated into the population of Jews, the concept of a Jewish "race" has no credibility whatever. The last group of scientists or ethnologists who accepted it wore swastika armbands.

The Mishnah and Gemara (aka the Talmud), which is the primary current manifestation of the Oral Torah, are certainly part of what I refer to; so are medieval works such as Rashi's commentary and the works of Maimonides. But the tradition is still a work in progress, and modern Responsa and commentaries are part of it as well. The Jews of today are just as much a part of forming and revising Jewish belief and practice as were the rabbis and sages of old.

[arayhay]

To arayhay:

Of course, I am speaking of modern Judaism. I regret not being more specific.

It seems clear that Mark and Luke were not Jews; there is also a good deal of speculation that Paul of Tarsus was not Jewish, in spite of his claims. I refer you to David Klinghoffer's book, "Why the Jews Rejected Jesus," for that discussion.

Sounds like a interesting book.

Sorry, according to Jewish law, a Jew is a Jew. Ethnicity is irrelevant. Since Jews have accepted converts since Moses's day, and since there have been mass conversions of whole peoples (notably the Khazars) who were then incorporated into the population of Jews, the concept of a Jewish "race" has no credibility whatever. The last group of scientists or ethnologists who accepted it wore swastika armbands.

The Mishnah and Gemara (aka the Talmud), which is the primary current manifestation of the Oral Torah, are certainly part of what I refer to; so are medieval works such as Rashi's commentary and the works of Maimonides. But the tradition is still a work in progress, and modern Responsa and commentaries are part of it as well. The Jews of today are just as much a part of forming and revising Jewish belief and practice as were the rabbis and sages of old.

My point in bringing historical Judaism into the picture is the great number of likenesses between what Judaism was and what christianity was to be.

[cnorman18]

Sounds like a interesting book.

It is indeed. It's more of a historical study, about why the Jews of Jesus's day rejected him, than about why the Jews of today continue to do so, but it's a good read.

My point in bringing historical Judaism into the picture is the great number of likenesses between what Judaism was and what christianity was to be.

I apologize, but I don't see your point at all. Can you explicate a bit?

[arayhay]

Sounds like a interesting book.

It is indeed. It's more of a historical study, about why the Jews of Jesus's day rejected him, than about why the Jews of today continue to do so, but it's a good read.

My point in bringing historical Judaism into the picture is the great number of likenesses between what Judaism was and what christianity was to be.

I apologize, but I don't see your point at all. Can you explicate a bit?

But of corse. Just to start, not all Jews rejected Jesus/Yeshua. The Jewish community flocked to Him in Droves. They came to hear Him speak about [strike]the[/strike] Torah. christmas wasn't there easter wasn't there, all smersh's buddies weren't there. What was there was COMPLETELY Jewish in form and structure. So for anyone to follow Jesus/Yeshua outside of the context of Judaism is preposterous. Also , when one reads what Yahshua reportedly said one finds Him confronting Jewish leadership with THE WAY they are walking, Halakah. He doesn't come in and ESTABLISH something NEW and rail against Jews for believing something else. He puts forth 'corse' corrections just like Houston does with the space shuttle. they don't just point it and fire. there are agistments that are essential to the mission that cane only be made in route.




Joh 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
Joh 3:2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him."
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?"
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?


He didn't say; haven't you read My latest book. LOL. He says; YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS, GIVEN THAT YOU ARE A TEACHER OF ISRAEL. The born again concept is familiar to people of this time, like when someone was promoted to the Sanhedrin. They considered this type of elevation to be born again.

[cnorman18]

But of corse. Just to start, not all Jews rejected Jesus/Yeshua. The Jewish community flocked to Him in Droves. They came to hear Him speak about the Torah.

One of the first points Klinghoffer makes in his book is that the overwhelming majority of the Jews in Israel in Jesus's day could not have rejected him, because they never heard of him. This was an age without mass media, after all; if you wanted to hear a man speak, you had to see him in person.

It seems clear that Jesus had a good many followers; how many, or what proportion they were of the Jews of the day, is impossible to to say. They certainly weren't the majority.

christmas wasn't there easter wasn't there, all smersh's buddies weren't there. What was there was COMPLETELY Jewish in form and structure. So for anyone to follow Jesus/Yeshua outside of the context of Judaism is preposterous.

Not so fast. Judaism was a pretty big context then, and still is. It has rarely been monolithic, and it wasn't then. The split between the Pharisees and the Temple party, the Sadducees, was already well under way, and they differed on some very basic things. We know now that the Essenes were also on the scene, and of course there were the Zealots.

Also , when one reads what Yahshua reportedly said one finds Him confronting Jewish leadership with THE WAY they are walking, Halakah. He doesn't come in and ESTABLISH something NEW and rail against Jews for believing something else. He puts forth 'corse' corrections just like Houston does with the space shuttle. they don't just point it and fire. there are agistments that are essential to the mission that cane only be made in route.

There was a bit more to it than that. Though Jesus primarily taught Pharisaic Judaism, which later became Rabbinic Judaism, he did make some rather startling claims (or perhaps such were made on his behalf, e.g., by Paul). He also departed from traditional Jewish teaching in a number of ways, exactly as described in the New Testament. Chief among them was the fact that he "taught on his own authority and not as the scribes." that simply wasn't done in his day; heck, it's not done now. The tradition was the real authority, not the Torah; that's always been true. Ignoring it was as bizarre as tossing out the Torah itself.

He did, indeed, make a number of changes and start something entirely new. Whether or not that was his conscious intent is another question. With Paul, there is little doubt.

I have no quarrel with the validity and truth of Christianity for Christians; but the popular Christian idea that Christianity is a natural development from and the completion and perfection of Judaism is simply false. As one can see from the list in my OP, they are far too different; and over on the Apologetics board, my article "Why Jesus was not the Jewish Messiah" will explain just how new, and foreign to Judaism, the claims made by or for Jesus were, and remain.[/quote]