Criteria for salvation; what must we do?

[achilles12604]

I have researched this myself and created a similar post in the holy huddle room. But I open it up for general discussion.

1) What exactly must be done to be saved?

2) What is the criteria used by God to determine judgement?

3) Who will be saved?

4) Who will NOT be saved?

[McCulloch]

Yes, not believing in Allah is kufr (disbelief), it is worse than any crime. It is much worse than being a "naughty child". Kufr is the root of all evil deeds and actions. One who disdains to worship Allah is a purely evil person, and nothing but evil can emanate from such a person.

How can this be? There are many apparently good people from various faiths and no faith at all. Are we all purely evil incapable of doing anything but evil?

[Ilias Ahmad]

How can this be? There are many apparently good people from various faiths and no faith at all. Are we all purely evil incapable of doing anything but evil?

Yes, because righteousness is rooted in the fear of Allah. How can someone be righteous if he does not even believe in Allah? A deed, in order for it to be considered good, must have a pure intention behind it. Charity in it of itself is not a good deed, unless it is combined with the right intention and motivation. For example, someone can give charity, but his intention is to make a name for himself or show off, thus such an act is hollow. The same is true for all the so called "good deeds" of the non-believers, they are all hollow and worthless in the sight of Allah.

[McCulloch]

How can this be? There are many apparently good people from various faiths and no faith at all. Are we all purely evil incapable of doing anything but evil?

Yes, because righteousness is rooted in the fear of Allah.

How sad you are. Can't you believe that someone can do right just for the sake of doing right? When I do a good thing, unlike you apparently, I do it because it is good, not because I fear an invisible spirit being.

How can someone be righteous if he does not even believe in Allah?

Even if Allah does exist, why could a human not be righteous or at least partly righteous without belief in Allah? If we are created in the image of God, as the prophet Moses proclaims, then how can we be purely evil, incpable of doing anything but evil.

A deed, in order for it to be considered good, must have a pure intention behind it.

And you claim that a pure intention is not necessarily to do good but can only be achieved to please the other-worldly Allah.

Charity in it of itself is not a good deed, unless it is combined with the right intention and motivation. For example, someone can give charity, but his intention is to make a name for himself or show off, thus such an act is hollow.

Similarly, if his intention is to impress Allah then his motive is also impure. Right?

The same is true for all the so called "good deeds" of the non-believers, they are all hollow and worthless in the sight of Allah.

Why? If your intent is to do good then why would a good God see those acts as hollow and worthless? Is God so vain that he needs all good deeds to be deliberately dedicated to him? Doesn't he want us to internalize goodness and be good for goodness sake?

[Ilias Ahmad]

How sad you are. Can't you believe that someone can do right just for the sake of doing right? When I do a good thing, unlike you apparently, I do it because it is good, not because I fear an invisible spirit being.

This is firstly a wrong understanding of fear of Allah. Fear of Allah does not just mean fear of His punishment. The Islamic concept taqwa means righteousness bourne out of conciousness of Allah. Now if someone does not believe in Allah, how can he know what is good or bad? Morality becomes subjective to him, subjective to his whims and desires and defficient intelligence. Thus belief and awareness of Allah is required in order to be truly righteous.

Even if Allah does exist, why could a human not be righteous or at least partly righteous without belief in Allah?

Explaind above.

If we are created in the image of God, as the prophet Moses proclaims, then how can we be purely evil, incpable of doing anything but evil.

We are all created in the "image of God" in the sense we are all created pure and innocent, with the natural inclination to worship and submit to Allah. However, it is due to outside influence, parents, society, etc., that when children become mature they leave behind their pure nature which is Islam and turn into Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, etc.

Our point is also that it is not a question of disbelievers are incapable of doing good without belief in Allah. Rather belief in Allah is of fundamental importance, like a fountainhead from which all moral actions spring out of. Without this belief and foundation, no matter how righteous a disbeliever tries to be, it is all vain and wasted effort.

And you claim that a pure intention is not necessarily to do good but can only be achieved to please the other-worldly Allah.

Doing good and doing something for the sake of Allah are synonymous, not mutually exclusive. Whatever is good is good because Allah has commanded it, and whatever is evil is evil because Allah has forbidden it.

Is God so vain that he needs all good deeds to be deliberately dedicated to him? Doesn't he want us to internalize goodness and be good for goodness sake?

Of course Allah wants us to internalize goodness, but this is impossible without first believing in Him and adhering to His guidance. In other words the process to internalizing good in your soul requires fear of Allah and strict obedience to His statutes, otherwise trying to become a good person is a futile endeavor.

[McCulloch]

How sad you are. Can't you believe that someone can do right just for the sake of doing right? When I do a good thing, unlike you apparently, I do it because it is good, not because I fear an invisible spirit being.

This is firstly a wrong understanding of fear of Allah. Fear of Allah does not just mean fear of His punishment. The Islamic concept taqwa means righteousness bourne out of conciousness of Allah.

Perhaps then fear was the wrong term for you to use. I find it strange that anyone would translate awareness or consciousness as fear. Perhaps awe is the word you are looking for.

Now if someone does not believe in Allah, how can he know what is good or bad? Morality becomes subjective to him, subjective to his whims and desires and deficient intelligence. Thus belief and awareness of Allah is required in order to be truly righteous.

How do you know that? How would you even be able to tell that Allah is good if your own morality is completely subjective? The theists who believe that all good comes from their deity have abdicated any moral reasoning and rely on the arbitrary morality given to them from their God's revelation.

If we are created in the image of God, as the prophet Moses proclaims, then how can we be purely evil, incpable of doing anything but evil.

We are all created in the "image of God" in the sense we are all created pure and innocent, with the natural inclination to worship and submit to Allah.

We are not born with any natural inclination to worship anything. We are not born with any knowledge of Allah, Jesus, prophets, Vishnu, Buddha, the Green Man or Godess.

Our point is also that it is not a question of disbelievers are incapable of doing good without belief in Allah. Rather belief in Allah is of fundamental importance, like a fountainhead from which all moral actions spring out of. Without this belief and foundation, no matter how righteous a disbeliever tries to be, it is all vain and wasted effort.

How do you know? You might want to look up Euthyphro.

And you claim that a pure intention is not necessarily to do good but can only be achieved to please the other-worldly Allah.

Doing good and doing something for the sake of Allah are synonymous, not mutually exclusive. Whatever is good is good because Allah has commanded it, and whatever is evil is evil because Allah has forbidden it.

This is a dangerous philosophy where you abandon any moral reasoning and analysis for simple obedience to a prophet claiming to be a messenger from a God.

[muhammad rasullah]

I have researched this myself and created a similar post in the holy huddle room. But I open it up for general discussion.

1) What exactly must be done to be saved?

2) What is the criteria used by God to determine judgement?

3) Who will be saved?

4) Who will NOT be saved?

In the bible salvation is given and this is what the jew and the muslim both believe as salvation. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Meaning spiritually he will be cut off from God) The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 ¶ But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

In Ezekiel chapter 18 it clearly lays out the criteria for salvation in the Old Testament which christians now today seem to have indirectly forsakened. And have incorporated idea of someone dying on the cross for your sins completely goind against when it says then son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.

Quran 18:30 As to those who believe and work righteousness, verily We shall not suffer to perish the reward of any who do a (single) righteous deed. -
21:94 Whoever works any act of righteousness and has faith,- His endeavour will not be rejected: We shall record it in his favour.
3:16 (Namely), those who say: "Our Lord! we have indeed believed: forgive us, then, our sins, and save us from the agony of the Fire;"- -
3:17 Those who show patience, Firmness and self-control; who are true (in word and deed); who worship devoutly; who spend (in the way of Allah.; and who pray for forgiveness in the early hours of the morning.
16:97 Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.
This is salvation in accordance with belief in Allah and his messenger 4:170 O mankind! The Apostle has now come unto you with the truth from your Sustainer: believe, then, for your own good! And if you deny the truth - behold, unto God belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth, and God is indeed all-knowing, wise!

[Okieshowedem]

Salvation is only given to one group of people.
Acts 3:19 says Repent and be converted.
Repent of sin. So what is sin?
1 John 3:4 Breaking the Law written in the Scriptures is sin.
Convert to living by the every word as the True Messiah said in Matt.4:4.
This is the same thing Yahshua said in Rev.22:14.
Only those who keep the comandments will be given Salvation.
Ps.19:7 tells us that it is the Law that Spirit Holy uses to show us our sins.
The great prophet said in Isayah 8:20 "If they speak not according to the Law and the Prophecy it is because there is no light in them.
Ps.119:142 tells us that Yahweh's Laws are truth.
This is where Christianity miss the boat, they are taught the traditions of men and not the Scriptures.
Religion is little man trying to be like his God.
The Scriptures state we must convert to being like the Hebrew Messiah Who is now like His Father Yahweh.

Okieshowedem

[JoeyKnothead]

1) What exactly must be done to be saved?

2) What is the criteria used by God to determine judgement?

3) Who will be saved?

4) Who will NOT be saved?

1- We must all learn to accept that we are all humans, we all deserve the right to freedom of thought and action. We must find a way to end our bickering, and work together to create on this planet the utopia of people living in harmony with each other, and with nature.

2- We are all gods on this planet, insofar as we all can have a positive impact if we strive to be decent, loving, caring human beings. Our godly status is measured in how well we work to free people from oppression, from hunger, and from poverty.

3- All will be saved if we can set aside our prejudices and hatred for those we disagree with, or don't understand. All will be saved if we can learn to manage the Earth's finite resources. All will be saved if we can learn to overcome our misunderstandings, our mistrust, and our ideologies.

4- We will all fail to be saved if we can't learn to live and let live. We will be doomed if we don't see the humanity in a person, rather than their religion, their color, their race. We will all be doomed if we don't learn to love each other, and respect the rights of all.

[OnceConvinced]

Worship does not benefit Allah, it is for our own sake. Those who disdain to worship Allah in reality are evil and they have a disease in their heart.

I love that one. For our own benefit. When you say that, I think you mean, that it prevents us from being sent to Hell by Allah. Otherwise it's not for our own benefit. Many of us live happy and satisfying lives not worshiping Allah or any other imaginery deity.

Think about it Ilias. How many loving people threaten someone else with violence if they don't do something that's for their own good?
Allah: You must worship me otherwise your heart will be diseased. If you don't do this to prevent that disease I'm going to torture you for all eternity.

Can you not see how ludicruos that is? It would be a little like the government imposing a law for anyone who successfully commits suicide. You commit suicide and we're going to give you the electric chair.

Yes, not believing in Allah is kufr (disbelief), it is worse than any crime. It is much worse than being a "naughty child". Kufr is the root of all evil deeds and actions. One who disdains to worship Allah is a purely evil person, and nothing but evil can emanate from such a person.

How does not worshiping someone make you evil? How can worshiping someone change whether you are inclined to do evil or not?

How can someone be righteous if he does not even believe in Allah?

How can someone be righteous just by beleiving in something? The only way someone can become righteous in the eyes of a God is if that God chooses to see that person as righteous and ignore their evil.

A deed, in order for it to be considered good, must have a pure intention behind it. Charity in it of itself is not a good deed, unless it is combined with the right intention and motivation.

For example, someone can give charity, but his intention is to make a name for himself or show off, thus such an act is hollow. The same is true for all the so called "good deeds" of the non-believers, they are all hollow and worthless in the sight of Allah.

So then how can simple belief in Allah be enough? What is the intention and motivation behind belief in Allah? To save oneself from Allah's wrath? To get to Heaven? How can that be a good intention and motivational factor?

[JoeyKnothead]

Yes, not believing in Allah is kufr (disbelief), it is worse than any crime. It is much worse than being a "naughty child". Kufr is the root of all evil deeds and actions. One who disdains to worship Allah is a purely evil person, and nothing but evil can emanate from such a person.

Do you not have access to a TV? Are you blind? Deaf? >this part self edited<? Do you turn away or hide when you see the bombings, the dragging dead folks through the streets, the celebrations in the deaths of others, the kidnappings, the general mayhem done in the name of Allah?

Religion breeds, and feeds on these hateful acts. Do you disregard these acts, or do they make Allah happy?

To say my disbelief makes me evil is utter nonsense. I am not evil specifically because I refuse the call to war in the name of your heinous religion. How dare you call a person evil because they themselves will not support an evil book, philosophy, or religion.

Evil is the suppression, the hatred, the wanton murder done in the name of any God. Evil is the refusal to accept that a belief, especially one so violent as Islam, is more important than being humane to one another.

Fear Allah? No, he's only one more in a long line of false beliefs. Fear his adherents? Most definitely.

I'm sick and tired of hearing people call me Satan, or the Devil, or evil because I will not follow their stone age, backwards, hateful, despicable, false, incongruent, irrational brand of sky daddyism.

You go fuck yourself. May that please your God you hate mongering mother fucker.