Criteria for salvation; what must we do?

[achilles12604]

I have researched this myself and created a similar post in the holy huddle room. But I open it up for general discussion.

1) What exactly must be done to be saved?

2) What is the criteria used by God to determine judgement?

3) Who will be saved?

4) Who will NOT be saved?

[Rathpig]

Foreknowledge is not the same thing as determinism. God can know you're free-will choice and not have determined it for you.

This would be true were "God" a disinterested third-party. What makes "free will" a sham is the "God" as creator aspect of the story. When one has complete foreknowledge and complete power of creation then the resulting creation can not logically have any essence of "free will". This is an utter contradiction.

Now it is nothing to me if you decide to "worship" a contradiction, but don't tout the contradiction and not expect others to call you on it's ridiculous nature.

Right now, of your own free will, you can either choose Christ or reject him. YOU make that decision, not God per se. He only knows what decision you will make.

What decision I make is meaningless because it was never logically in my power to make any decision. If the "God" story is true, then everything must be known and determined.

Even old Bronze Age fairy tales like Yahweh are subject to the dictates of logic.

[Pi]

I have researched this myself and created a similar post in the holy huddle room. But I open it up for general discussion.
1) What exactly must be done to be saved?
2) What is the criteria used by God to determine judgement?
3) Who will be saved?
4) Who will NOT be saved?

*It all kind of falls into place after one understands 'who' one is being saved from.
*The essence of 'salvation' or 'redemption' is to reverse the mental pattern that puts 'self' before (in priority to) God.
Its that simple.
*Judgement is determined by 'natural law' and it is a matter of good outweighing evil or evil outweighing good.
*Those who will be saved are those who strive to conform themselves to 'natural law' and to place God before self.
*Every opportunity is given to 'save a soul'.... including reincarnation, which is missing from the Christian cosmology.
Those who will not be saved (those who will perish) are those who are beyond redemption and who have been devoured by evil.
There are not too many people who qualify to NOT be (eventually) saved.

Key: Natural Law ..... good acts have good results and evil acts have evil consequences.... you cannot 'square the circle'. Every deed contains its own reward or negative consequence.
You cannot make evil good nor good evil.

This 'journey to light' takes more than one lifetime to accomplish. Christianity ignores the fact of reincarnation and sets up insurmountable obstacles to attaining liberation/redemption.
This is because there are two sets of teachings:
1) One set is given to the masses ... God is 'out there' somewhere.
2) The second set is "Gnostic" meaning that God is 'within you' and not 'out there' or 'up in the sky'.

The 'inner circle' of 'the Church' is given the REAL teachings.

The 'masses' are given paradox and an unworkable methodology.

[bernee51]

This 'journey to light' takes more than one lifetime to accomplish. Christianity ignores the fact of reincarnation...

You are have shown that you are fond of bold assertions.

I did not realize that reincarnation was accepted as a 'fact'

Let's see why it is so.

This is because there are two sets of teachings:

Only two?

[achilles12604]

What the Bible Says

• You must repent of your sins.

  "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. ... I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

• You must confess your sins.

  Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

  If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

• You must forgive others.

  For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

• You must endure to the end.

  "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

• You must suffer.

  "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

  Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

• You must be baptized.

  He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

  ... when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

  Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

• You must believe in Jesus and make public confession that you believe.

  They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

• You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind.
• You must not only love your neighbor, but you must love him as yourself.
• You must help the poor.

I was hoping that someone would create something like this. Notice that Paul's writings give a slightly different viewpoint of salvation than those attributed to Jesus. They don't necessarily contradict, but certainly are not of the same ilk.


Anyway, I have let this thread go without my own imput for a while. So here is what I believe and why. I wrote much of this in another thread. my apologies for repeating myself here. I will certainly add more to it.

Sorry all, I have neglected my own post for far to long now.

I have read through all 4 gospels.

Here was what I could find relating directly to salvation. . .

Mark

13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

What is it that children have that adults lack? What do we lose as we grow older? A sense of the magical? Innocence?

It seems to me that children are fairly ego-centric. In other words they take gifts openly without thinking about the correct social rules of repaying in kind. They have no trouble taking a gift without even considering repaying the gracious act. They are focused on what they want and need.

Could this be how Jesus wanted people to accept salvation? To just take it without a second thought about how to be worthy of it or earn it or even re-pay it?

7As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'[d]"

20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"

24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

I find many people who read this and interpret it as "giving away possessions and living a good life will grant eternal life.". Is this accurate?

I read this and I see a message that goes something like this. . .

Once those around you are more important to you that yourself . . . You will be ready to enter heaven. Once you realize that things of this world, wealth power, etc, are not as important as the people around you and what they need, you will be better off for heaven. If you are focused on wealth, you will gain wealth . . . and nothing else. It is much easier to focus on God and follow him when you are not trying to build up your wealth and run your life how you want to.

A man can not build both his own castle and one for God at the same time.

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Once again Jesus focuses on outward attentions as opposed to inward aspirations. No actions, no matter how sacrificial or "holy" will even be able to compete with loving and doing what God wants.



It seems that Mark paints of picture of salvation according to Jesus as a person willing to forget and forgo the aspirations of this world and instead focus on his fellow man and his needs. It is someone who is willing to give himself totally to the betterment of his neighbors, even at his own loss. It is also someone who is not to proud and arrogant to accept a gift. Someone with great pride would feel the need to accept a gift only if he could repay it in kind or if he had earned it.

A humble man, would be willing to accept a gift at face value. He would take it as it was, no strings, nothing more or less. An open gift which he can accept because his pride doesn't need to be satisfied before being comfortable in accepting it.



Matthew

The first mention of salvation in Matthew is very interesting.

19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Apparently you can break every rule set up by Jewish law (or at least a lot of them) and still get to heaven.

Thus salvation can not be based at all of the "rules" of the OT. Jesus refers to them almost like "bonus points" after the score has been added up. He also makes the point that the highly religious will not make it to heaven.

If a thief can make it and the good religious people can't then it must not be based on the quality of a person's life or actions.

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

This one would indicate that hatred, and malice are contrary to the kingdom of God. Anyone who is upset with someone else is answerable to man's laws. If someone hates another person in their hearts, then they are treading in God's rules.

This would indicate that salvation is determined at least in part (if not in full as I think) by the true nature of a person. Who they are in their heart decides their fate, not what they say or do so much.

Of course actions will always reflect what is inside a person's heart. Fruit of the trees, etc.

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Again it has more to do with what is in their true nature as opposed to what they present outwardly. Take for example Timothy Joseph Evans contrasted with Father Robert Drinan.

Both claim Christianity as their base. They claim to teach and follow Jesus as lord. However, no one would argue that these men were on equal footing. Which do you think will be calling "lord lord"?

I am beginning to see a pattern. Salvation based on a person's heart. The person
is heart is easily reflected by their actions.

10When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

13Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Interesting. A high member of the military currently oppressing the Jews, God's chosen people, demonstrates better than any of God people what great faith entails.

It also states explicitly here that there will be people from every corner of the earth accepted into heaven, while many of those originally invited (Jews) will not be accepted.

So what was the difference between the centurion here and the people Jesus has been teaching? The centurion came to Jesus on behalf of someone much lower than himself in rank. He came seeking aid for a servant.

I believe that this shows great insight into the true heart or nature of the centurion. I believe that this again points to salvation being a focus of the true heart of a person rather than his race, or even his religion as I doubt very much that the centurion believed or accepted Jesus as his personal lord and savior.

Very interesting indeed.

12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Mercy - put forth by the centurion
Sacrifice - put forth by the Pharisees.

I'm going to stop there for now.

Anyone have any comments?



I believe we have looked and I have interpreted these passages as pointing clearly to salvation being

1) a matter of the heart
2) un-impacted by following or ignoring proper "rules" or procedures
3) a gift which must be accepted without pride in the way
4) A gift given by God to those who's hearts are bent on loving and assisting their fellow man rather than focusing on themselves.

What I have not found so far -

1) Any indication that a particular prayer is needed to join "the club"
2) any indication that people outside of traditional Christianity can not be saved.

On the contrary I found passages which indicate that many "Christians" will be excluded while many "non-Christians" will be accepted.

1) What must be done to be saved? Have a heart of and for God. Or, in other words loving God and loving your neighbor's basically sums it up. I believe that in order to do this, you must attain a heart like God's. Basically you must truly have a heart for and of God. Do this, and I believe you can be saved. God would be the only one who could truly read and understand your heart and he would know if you were simply faking it.

2) What is the criteria used by God to determine judgement? Well this is addressed in number one. I believe the criteria God uses is that person's own heart. Is their heart full of hate? Is it full of Greed? Lust? Anger? If the heart is full of these, then it is motivated by these. If it is motivated by these, then actions will surely follow in suit.

3) Who will be saved? Those who are pure of heart. Those who truly seek out God and his will. Those who approach life with the ininnocencef a child. Those who's decisions are driven out of love for their fellow man.

4) Who will NOT be saved? Everyone else. Those who's hearts are corrupted by hate, greed, malice, anger, selfish-ness, etc.

I have included many of the verses I read which caused me to believe the way I do. Notice as I said before, that I have not taken from Paul. My reason for this is simply because Paul seems to allow his own views to influence his message. While I believe this was a good plan by God, because without it, the message wouldn't have been understood or accepted by gentials nearly as easily, I do try and stick with the untainted source as much as possible.

However, if you read Paul's writings on the matter, you can still see the message of innocence, love and purity of heart. Therefore, while I don't use Paul to prove my point, he doesn't really contradict it.

Ok now go for it. Tear apart my views.

[Rathpig]

Ok now go for it. Tear apart my views.

Actually achilles12604, I think you have a very philosophical grasp on the topic. Considering the tentative nature of the premise, I think you have explained the follow-through very well. Speaking for myself personally, I find that those who promote a petty and anal deity are missing what can be a wonderfully humanistic philosophy.

It is too bad that your view on salvation lies so far outside of the Christian mainstream. An us-versus-them dichotomy makes the teachings attributed to Christ rather stale.

[achilles12604]

Ok now go for it. Tear apart my views.

Actually achilles12604, I think you have a very philosophical grasp on the topic. Considering the tentative nature of the premise, I think you have explained the follow-through very well. Speaking for myself personally, I find that those who promote a petty and anal deity are missing what can be a wonderfully humanistic philosophy.

It is too bad that your view on salvation lies so far outside of the Christian mainstream. An us-versus-them dichotomy makes the teachings attributed to Christ rather stale.

I attend a church with similar views. The church has grown a lot over the years. In fact we are about to split away from our denomination because they refuse to allow the pastor to preach certain things.

Hopefully, more people will realize the difference between what scriptures actually says, and what dogma has dictated dating back a thousand years. Christians really need to READ their bible and then decide what to believe instead of the other way around. I know I am not alone with this opinion.

[Pi]

This 'journey to light' takes more than one lifetime to accomplish. Christianity ignores the fact of reincarnation...

You are have shown that you are fond of bold assertions.

I did not realize that reincarnation was accepted as a 'fact'

Let's see why it is so.

This is because there are two sets of teachings:

Only two?

Well, yes! (bold assertions) "Reincarnation" becomes apparent if on has a 'past life recollection(s)' ... of course, very subjective but a life altering event!

Yes, also.. two sets of Christian teachings.

One for the initiate and the other for 'the masses'.

One is 'inner' the other is 'outer' (like belly buttons).

[Rathpig]

I attend a church with similar views. The church has grown a lot over the years. In fact we are about to split away from our denomination because they refuse to allow the pastor to preach certain things.

Hopefully, more people will realize the difference between what scriptures actually says, and what dogma has dictated dating back a thousand years. Christians really need to READ their bible and then decide what to believe instead of the other way around. I know I am not alone with this opinion.

Well, obviously I dismiss it all as superstition, but I can at least respect those who adhere to the actual text of their superstition rather than build their business model on what seem most profitable at the time. Religion is first and foremost a business, and the concept of "salvation" has become a commodity to sale which requires nothing to be delivered.

It is refreshing to hear a doctrine that is actually centered on the basic philosophy of the text.

[achilles12604]

I attend a church with similar views. The church has grown a lot over the years. In fact we are about to split away from our denomination because they refuse to allow the pastor to preach certain things.

Hopefully, more people will realize the difference between what scriptures actually says, and what dogma has dictated dating back a thousand years. Christians really need to READ their bible and then decide what to believe instead of the other way around. I know I am not alone with this opinion.

Well, obviously I dismiss it all as superstition, but I can at least respect those who adhere to the actual text of their superstition rather than build their business model on what seem most profitable at the time. Religion is first and foremost a business, and the concept of "salvation" has become a commodity to sale which requires nothing to be delivered.

It is refreshing to hear a doctrine that is actually centered on the basic philosophy of the text.

So out of curiosity what would your opinion be of a business which cut all ties with its primary source of revenue over a difference of philosophy?

[Rathpig]

So out of curiosity what would your opinion be of a business which cut all ties with its primary source of revenue over a difference of philosophy?

It is because this is so rare that I respect the true fundamental nature of the beliefs. I think fundamental is used too often as a synonym for "kooky" when in reality so few churches are "fundamental" in their beliefs. Very few churches follow the teaching of Christ.

So to directly answer your question, this church is a bad business. it is probably a good "church" though, and that should be the overwhelming criteria.