The glory of God,

[Revelations won]

Did God have all his glory in the beginning?

Has he received additional glory?

Will he yet receive additional glory and how?

[twobitsmedia]

Did God have all his glory in the beginning?

Yes.

Has he received additional glory?

Will he yet receive additional glory and how?

Both questions would imply that God had a "need" and would therefore not be complete.

[Greatest I Am]

Did God have all his glory in the beginning?

Has he received additional glory?

Will he yet receive additional glory and how?

Scripture indicates that one third of His angels did not glorify God as well as all of mankind except for 8 people at the time of the flood.

A poor record for a God. Good thing I do not believe everything that I read.

Is the beginning that you speak of before or after the angels were created?

Regards
DL

[Revelations won]

Some interesting responses have been given to these questions.

After reflecting on these questions, I perhaps should have first asked the question:

What is the work and glory of God?

[Greatest I Am]

Some interesting responses have been given to these questions.

After reflecting on these questions, I perhaps should have first asked the question:

What is the work and glory of God?

His works would include all of the universe.
Scripture indicates that all of God's works are Perfect.

This is why we glorify God and thank Him for allowing us to be part of this Perfection.

Regards
DL

[Revelations won]

Some interesting responses have been given to these questions.

After reflecting on these questions, I perhaps should have first asked the question:

What is the work and glory of God?

His works would include all of the universe.
Scripture indicates that all of God's works are Perfect.

This is why we glorify God and thank Him for allowing us to be part of this Perfection.

Regards
DL

I agree with you that his works include all the universe. But for what purpose?

"For this is my work and glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man"

Do you know of any other more noble and far reaching purpose for which all things were created?

[Goat]

Some interesting responses have been given to these questions.

After reflecting on these questions, I perhaps should have first asked the question:

What is the work and glory of God?

His works would include all of the universe.
Scripture indicates that all of God's works are Perfect.

This is why we glorify God and thank Him for allowing us to be part of this Perfection.

Regards
DL

I agree with you that his works include all the universe. But for what purpose?

"For this is my work and glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man"

Do you know of any other more noble and far reaching purpose for which all things were created?

That sounds pretty darn homocentric and egocentric on the part of man.

[Greatest I Am]

Some interesting responses have been given to these questions.

After reflecting on these questions, I perhaps should have first asked the question:

What is the work and glory of God?

His works would include all of the universe.
Scripture indicates that all of God's works are Perfect.

This is why we glorify God and thank Him for allowing us to be part of this Perfection.

Regards
DL

I agree with you that his works include all the universe. But for what purpose?

"For this is my work and glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man"

Do you know of any other more noble and far reaching purpose for which all things were created?

If we are in God's immage and He in ours then we must see what keeps us going.

In one word, pleasure.

Without pleasure we would probably all end our existence.

From here, God gets pleasure from our mental struggle to figure it all out.
If not then He would not have given us the tree of knowledge of good and evil and started the debate.

At the end of the day, this is the only worthwhile debate.

Regards
DL

[Revelations won]

Did God have all his glory in the beginning?

Has he received additional glory?

Will he yet receive additional glory and how?

Scripture indicates that one third of His angels did not glorify God as well as all of mankind except for 8 people at the time of the flood.

A poor record for a God. Good thing I do not believe everything that I read.

Is the beginning that you speak of before or after the angels were created?

Regards
DL

For discussion purposes, lets use the idea that God had his glory before the creation of angels.

DL raises some interesting points here. I will preface my remarks with the following comments.

I firmly believe that we should have a clear understanding that the God given power of agency or choice is a concept that is so vital to eternal progress that it under girds and over arches the core plan of progress of man. For without this fundamental principle firmly in place, how could men be agents unto themselves?

How could men or even governments be held accountable?

Both men and angels are equally accountable for their choices and actions.

If man was denied the power of agency, how could either wickedness or righteousness be brought to pass?

Yes, the power of agency obviously has the potential of ultimate failure if one so chooses.

Yes the power of agency obviously has the potential of ultimate success, glory and achievement if one so chooses.

With these two opposites in mind, consider the following:

Redemption cometh through the Holy Messiah—Freedom of choice (agency) is essential to existence and progression—Adam fell that men might be—Men are free to choose liberty and eternal life.

1 And now, Jacob, I speak unto you: Thou art my first-born in the days of my tribulation in the wilderness. And behold, in thy childhood thou hast suffered afflictions and much sorrow, because of the rudeness of thy brethren.
2 Nevertheless, Jacob, my first-born in the wilderness, thou knowest the greatness of God; and he shall consecrate thine afflictions for thy gain.
3 Wherefore, thy soul shall be blessed, and thou shalt dwell safely with thy brother, Nephi; and thy days shall be spent in the service of thy God. Wherefore, I know that thou art redeemed, because of the righteousness of thy Redeemer; for thou hast beheld that in the fulness of time he cometh to bring salvation unto men.
4 And thou hast beheld in thy youth his glory; wherefore, thou art blessed even as they unto whom he shall minister in the flesh; for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free.
5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.
6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.
7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.
8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.
9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.
10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—
11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.
15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.
17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.
18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.
20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men care, that they might have joy.
26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and call things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.
28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;
29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.
30 I have spoken these few words unto you all, my sons, in the last days of my probation; and I have chosen the good part, according to the words of the prophet. And I have none other object save it be the everlasting welfare of your souls. Amen.

Once one understands the above, then it is obvious that the failure is not God’s failure, but that of those who are granted the freedom of choice.

Once one clearly understands that there must be an opposition in all things to allow for ultimate growth and progress, then answers to direct or implied questions should become obvious.

DL, you rightly point out: “Scripture indicates that one third of His angels did not glorify God”

I choose rightly to respond that two thirds of His Angels did glorify God.

[Greatest I Am]

Revelations won

Man can only follow the conditions set by God.
Our natures are given to us by God.
All we can do is follow this nature.

If God is to take credit for all things then He must also take any blame.

Since I believe in the Perfection of all of God's works, I see no blame to be assigned.

Evil is the tool that God uses to teach. As Genesis says, the tree of knowledge of good and evil is good. I take it further and call it Perfect.