War in Heaven

[OpenedUp]

I am about to delve into some research on this topic, but I was just curious of what people know:

Is there any scriptural evidence for Satan's fall from heaven? The War in Heaven?
Where does this idea come from? Most (if not all) of the mentions of Satan in the Bible involve his interaction with God, under the command of God, not as an outcast. Did I miss something?

[jamesearl]

I am about to delve into some research on this topic, but I was just curious of what people know:

Is there any scriptural evidence for Satan's fall from heaven? The War in Heaven?
Where does this idea come from? Most (if not all) of the mentions of Satan in the Bible involve his interaction with God, under the command of God, not as an outcast. Did I miss something?

There is none, most of it comes from the Church.

The one that is defined as "the devil", "Satan" etcetera is an Angel working for God.

[cnorman18]

Most of the material about Satan's rebellion and the war in Heaven comes from John Milton's 1667 book, Paradise Lost. It's a very fine book that contains some of the greatest poetry ever written in English, but the last time I checked it was not yet part of the Biblical canon.

[McCulloch]

Most of the material about Satan's rebellion and the war in Heaven comes from John Milton's 1667 book, Paradise Lost. It's a very fine book that contains some of the greatest poetry ever written in English, but the last time I checked it was not yet part of the Biblical canon.

One has to wonder why not? Does the Bible itself claim that God's revelation is over? Couldn't have God inspired Milton?

[cnorman18]

Most of the material about Satan's rebellion and the war in Heaven comes from John Milton's 1667 book, Paradise Lost. It's a very fine book that contains some of the greatest poetry ever written in English, but the last time I checked it was not yet part of the Biblical canon.

One has to wonder why not? Does the Bible itself claim that God's revelation is over? Couldn't have God inspired Milton?

I realize this post was facetious--I think--but anyway:

Actually, yes, it does. Somewhere toward the end of Revelation, I think; "To him who adds to this book, I will add the plagues described in it," or something similar.

The canon was closed, if memory serves, in the 4th century, when there was only one "denomination." No one would presume to have the authority to change it today; even Joseph Smith had to make his addendum a separate book, as did Mary Baker Eddy.

If we're going to be adding stuff, I vote for The Lord of the Rings. Of course, then we'd have people running around in the Balkans trying to find Mount Doom.

[myth-one.com]

Hi OpenedUp,

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels. And prevailed not; neither was there place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:9)

Although we do not know the exact number of angels rebelling under Satan's leadership, it was one-third of the total number of angels in heaven. Satan and the angels who joined his rebellion against God were exiled from the Kingdom of God and restricted to ruling the earth:

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth... (Revelation 12:4)

"Stars" is symbolism for angels in the book of Revelation. Satan was an archangel since he had angels under his control. Today, we might consider him middle management. Being omnipotent, God could have created beings which had no choice but to worship and love him. However, of what significance is it if a being has no choice but to love someone? Not much, they would simply be robots. Therefore, God created the angels and man with freedom of choice. Satan and some of the angels under his authority at some time chose to rebel against God. Why did he rebel? It was a grab for power:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Lucifer, also known as Satan or the Devil, was not content in his position. He wanted to be like the most high God. He wanted to exalt his throne above the stars, or angels, of God.

Satan then ruled the earth. How do we know that Lucifer rules the earth? In the book of Luke, when Satan tempted Jesus for forty days in the desert, Satan offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the earth:

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

Notice that Jesus did not question the devil's authority to give him power over the earth. He knew that Satan did indeed have control over the earth and could give or share this power with whomever he pleased. Jesus' immediate response was:

Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Luke 4:8)

Satan rules over the earth and a ruler must be defeated and overthrown! This is one of the reasons Jesus is coming to the earth, to defeat Satan. The earth is not now part of the Kingdom of Heaven. But when Jesus defeats Satan after the Second Coming, the earth will once again become part of the Kingdom of Heaven:

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)

[OpenedUp]

Most of the material about Satan's rebellion and the war in Heaven comes from John Milton's 1667 book, Paradise Lost. It's a very fine book that contains some of the greatest poetry ever written in English, but the last time I checked it was not yet part of the Biblical canon.

It seems, and I find it incredibly interesting, that most of the visuals, stories, and ideas of Satan and Hell come from two epic poems:
Milton's "Paradise lost" and Dante's "The Divine Comedy" (of which inferno is a part)

[McCulloch]

Couldn't have God inspired Milton?

I realize this post was facetious--I think--

Not entirely. I still have not seen a convincing answer to the question of the closed canon.

but anyway:

Actually, yes, it does. Somewhere toward the end of Revelation, I think; "To him who adds to this book, I will add the plagues described in it," or something similar.

And since the Revelation to John was written before the writings were become known as the Bible were collected, John could not have been referring to the Bible. John, in context, could only be referring to the Revelation the he had written. There is nothing in the Bible which clearly and unequivocally says that God has stopped talking to people.

The canon was closed, if memory serves, in the 4th century, when there was only one "denomination." No one would presume to have the authority to change it today; even Joseph Smith had to make his addendum a separate book, as did Mary Baker Eddy.

Yes, the older it gets, the more hardened the tradition becomes.

If we're going to be adding stuff, I vote for The Lord of the Rings. Of course, then we'd have people running around in the Balkans trying to find Mount Doom.

I used to really like the LOTR. I re-read them recently and they just don't have the same magic they used to. The dialog really drags. Deus ex machina abounds, or is it Eagles ex machina?

[OpenedUp]

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels. And prevailed not; neither was there place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:9)

Although we do not know the exact number of angels rebelling under Satan's leadership, it was one-third of the total number of angels in heaven. Satan and the angels who joined his rebellion against God were exiled from the Kingdom of God and restricted to ruling the earth:

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth... (Revelation 12:4)

"Stars" is symbolism for angels in the book of Revelation. Satan was an archangel since he had angels under his control. Today, we might consider him middle management. Being omnipotent, God could have created beings which had no choice but to worship and love him. However, of what significance is it if a being has no choice but to love someone? Not much, they would simply be robots. Therefore, God created the angels and man with freedom of choice. Satan and some of the angels under his authority at some time chose to rebel against God. Why did he rebel? It was a grab for power:

Ah, Revelation, probably the strangest,most frightening, and most uncharacteristic books of the Bible. unfortunantly, your addition of these two excerpts brings us to another problem: the authorship of the Book of Revelation. The author of the Book of Revelation describes himself as:

"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ"

The churches disputed heavily on whether to include the book in the official canon. Eventually, the churches accepted the book under the notion that this John was in fact John the Apostle, and not someone else of that name.

However when you compare the book of Revelation to the fourth gospel of John, there are striking differences in style and writing:
- In the Book of John, John never refers to himself. In fact the Book of John (as are the other three canonical Gospels) was written anonymously. Here, the author of Revelation bluntly declares his name. (Then again, the Book of John differs pretty heavily from the other three anyway)
- The Book of John was written in Greek with nearly flawless grammar with a definant air of elegance to it. The Book of Revelation was also written in Greek, but the diction was crude and grammatical errors were prevalent.
- Characteristic terminology of the Book of John is missing from the book of Revelation. The terms "life", "light", "grace", and "truth" do not appear.

Now I certainly don't know, but if the book of revelation was not in fact written by John the Evangelist then it was written simply by a random man with "visions of God" and really that claim has little validity anyway.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Lucifer, also known as Satan or the Devil, was not content in his position. He wanted to be like the most high God. He wanted to exalt his throne above the stars, or angels, of God.

1 The LORD will have compassion on Jacob;
once again he will choose Israel
and will settle them in their own land.
Aliens will join them
and unite with the house of Jacob.

2 Nations will take them
and bring them to their own place.
And the house of Israel will possess the nations
as menservants and maidservants in the LORD's land.
They will make captives of their captors
and rule over their oppressors.

3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury has ended!

5 The LORD has broken the rod of the wicked,
the scepter of the rulers,

6 which in anger struck down peoples
with unceasing blows,
and in fury subdued nations
with relentless aggression.

7 All the lands are at rest and at peace;
they break into singing.

8 Even the pine trees and the cedars of Lebanon
exult over you and say,
"Now that you have been laid low,
no woodsman comes to cut us down."

9 The grave below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.

10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
"You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us."

11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."

15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
"Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,

17 the man who made the world a desert,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?"

18 All the kings of the nations lie in state,
each in his own tomb.

19 But you are cast out of your tomb
like a rejected branch;
you are covered with the slain,
with those pierced by the sword,
those who descend to the stones of the pit.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,

20 you will not join them in burial,
for you have destroyed your land
and killed your people.
The offspring of the wicked
will never be mentioned again.

21 Prepare a place to slaughter his sons
for the sins of their forefathers;
they are not to rise to inherit the land
and cover the earth with their cities.

22 "I will rise up against them,"
declares the LORD Almighty.
"I will cut off from Babylon her name and survivors,
her offspring and descendants,"
declares the LORD.

23 "I will turn her into a place for owls
and into swampland;
I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,"
declares the LORD Almighty.

If read literally this passage refers to a very prideful King of Babylon. The Jewish Encyclopedia says that "it is obvious that the prophet in attributing to the Babylonian king's boastful pride, followed by a fall, borrowed the idea from a popular legend connected with the morning star". The word lucifer is a latin word meaning "light-bearer" and was a Roman astrological term for the morning star. It wasn't thought as a metaphoric term for Satan until much later interpretations of the Bible and wasn't popularized as a term until used in the works of writers and poets such as Dante and Milton.

[cnorman18]

And since the Revelation to John was written before the writings were become known as the Bible were collected, John could not have been referring to the Bible. John, in context, could only be referring to the Revelation the he had written. There is nothing in the Bible which clearly and unequivocally says that God has stopped talking to people.

True enough, but since Revelation was placed at the end of the NT, the church has presumed since the Middle Ages that the prohibition referred to the Bible as a whole. Modern Biblical criticism is, after all, modern.

Yes, the older it gets, the more hardened the tradition becomes.

Exactly. Any alteration in the canon today would be met with howls of protest--and perhaps rightly so. Who would be presumptious enough to overrule 16 centuries of tradition?

I used to really like the LOTR. I re-read them recently and they just don't have the same magic they used to. The dialog really drags. Deus ex machina abounds, or is it Eagles ex machina?

I would concur. To be honest, the movies were so well done that to a large extent they ruined the books for me. I was thoroughly prepared to hate them--so many movies made from good books are such dreadful botches--but they won me over with the first installment.

I remember rereading the scene where Eowyn kills the Witch-King after seeing the movie, and it was so talky and dragged so badly that I put the book down. Few indeed have been the times when I've said "The movie was better," and it's truly amazing that I would say it about my favorite books ever. But there it is.

Peter Jackson did an astonishingly good job. Even the casting was right on the money, every time. Who but Liv Tyler could have played Arwen, in retrospect?

I think Tolkien himself would have been delighted with the movies--and gone back to rewrite and tighten.