War in Heaven

[OpenedUp]

I am about to delve into some research on this topic, but I was just curious of what people know:

Is there any scriptural evidence for Satan's fall from heaven? The War in Heaven?
Where does this idea come from? Most (if not all) of the mentions of Satan in the Bible involve his interaction with God, under the command of God, not as an outcast. Did I miss something?

[myth-one.com]

Ah, Revelation, probably the strangest,most frightening, and most uncharacteristic books of the Bible. unfortunantly, your addition of these two excerpts brings us to another problem: the authorship of the Book of Revelation. The author of the Book of Revelation describes himself as: ........................................

Yada, yada, yada. But in your opening of this thread, your question was:

Is there any scriptural evidence for Satan's fall from heaven? The War in Heaven?

Yes there is, I gave it to you with scripture verses. Now you know. Do with it as you wish.

[OpenedUp]

Ah, Revelation, probably the strangest,most frightening, and most uncharacteristic books of the Bible. unfortunantly, your addition of these two excerpts brings us to another problem: the authorship of the Book of Revelation. The author of the Book of Revelation describes himself as: ........................................

Yada, yada, yada. But in your opening of this thread, your question was:

Is there any scriptural evidence for Satan's fall from heaven? The War in Heaven?

Yes there is, I gave it to you with scripture verses. Now you know. Do with it as you wish.

Yada, yada, yada? Is that the way to approach all opposing research? A valid counter-argument for sure.


I have a new question:
If Satan was supposedly cast down from heaven so long ago, why is he still in heaven talking to God in the old testament?

[myth-one.com]

If Satan was supposedly cast down from heaven so long ago, why is he still in heaven talking to God in the old testament?

Road trip or possibly vacation. Satan went to head office in the book of Job for a management conference:

And there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. (Job 1:6-7)

All of the angels met with God in heaven, Satan is an archangel and apparently got that memo, and tagged along.

[OpenedUp]

If Satan was supposedly cast down from heaven so long ago, why is he still in heaven talking to God in the old testament?

Road trip or possibly vacation. Satan went to head office in the book of Job for a management conference:

And there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. (Job 1:6-7)

All of the angels met with God in heaven, Satan is an archangel and apparently got that memo, and tagged along.

I still don't see the proof that Satan was cast down from Heaven. Shouldn't that have been an important factor in the Old Testament: the line between good and evil? Or perhaps the newly developing Christians felt it a bad move to attribute all evil to God so they presented Satan's fall after the fact (as a scapegoat)?

[Metatron]

If Satan was supposedly cast down from heaven so long ago, why is he still in heaven talking to God in the old testament?

Road trip or possibly vacation. Satan went to head office in the book of Job for a management conference:

And there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. (Job 1:6-7)

All of the angels met with God in heaven, Satan is an archangel and apparently got that memo, and tagged along.

I still don't see the proof that Satan was cast down from Heaven. Shouldn't that have been an important factor in the Old Testament: the line between good and evil? Or perhaps the newly developing Christians felt it a bad move to attribute all evil to God so they presented Satan's fall after the fact (as a scapegoat)?

Well the answer is that there are two conceptions of Satan involved. There is the Jewish OT concept of Satan as presented in Job in which Satan is presented as an angel in good standing with God whose task it to test the faith of YHWH's subjects (in this case, Job). Fallen angels are not an OT concept and alleged references like the Isaiah 14 reference that you site or the unfounded assumption that the talking serpent from Genesis is Satan are examples of backward looking Christian revisionism to match the later Christian concept.

The Christian NT conception of Satan, on the other hand, is of an unofficial god of evil likely derived from Persian Zoroastrian influences. Satan is similar to the Zoroastrian god of evil Ahriman, a being juxtaposed against a good Godlike entity known as Ahura Mazda. Early Christianity became enamored of the black/white, good/evil philosophy of Zoroastrianism and apparently needed an eternal bogeyman to be the "fall guy" so that God and Jesus could be disassociated from evil in the world.

[The Nice Centurion]

Most of the material about Satan's rebellion and the war in Heaven comes from John Milton's 1667 book, Paradise Lost. It's a very fine book that contains some of the greatest poetry ever written in English, but the last time I checked it was not yet part of the Biblical canon.

One has to wonder why not? Does the Bible itself claim that God's revelation is over? Couldn't have God inspired Milton?

I realize this post was facetious--I think--but anyway:

Actually, yes, it does. Somewhere toward the end of Revelation, I think; "To him who adds to this book, I will add the plagues described in it," or something similar.

The canon was closed, if memory serves, in the 4th century, when there was only one "denomination." No one would presume to have the authority to change it today; even Joseph Smith had to make his addendum a separate book, as did Mary Baker Eddy.

Joseph Smith restored the Bible into the Joseph Smith bible (Inspired Version).

Example: He added the sentence into Genesis rhat described him, Joseph Smith, as Greatest Prophet of all time. Its my favourite sentence in the bible.

BoM is by all means a sequel to the bible. What is that if not adding to?

Or do you mean because they get rather not printed as one volume together?

If we're going to be adding stuff, I vote for The Lord of the Rings. Of course, then we'd have people running around in the Balkans trying to find Mount Doom.

I read somewhere that Lord of the Rings is the only book that can be compared to the Book of Mormon. Might be well true.

[TRANSPONDER]

Yes. While It is clear to me that the Satan of wart in heaven is a total fairy tale and nonsensical too, because God could deal with satan and all his angels as easily as the Sorcerer dealt with Mickey mouse - and Satan would know it, I see no evidence at all for that, but t best a gofor, tempter and deceiver of God (which shouldn't even be possible) and genral fall guy to take the blame for everything that goes wrong, if it can't be blamed on man.

I noted the suggestion that God might have inspired Milton or indeed Vaughan Williams (any excuse)



which is not going to impress doubters, even if it is just what believers like - letting a god take credit for a man's work.

[Athetotheist]

A being who is closer to God than any other, was created by God and knows that God created him and that he is held in existence by God's sheer thought and will, and that being seriously undertakes to depose his own omnipotent creator and set his own power above that of God.

That doesn't describe a being who's merely a prideful rebel. It describes a being who is insane, delusionally detatched from reality. Thus, the story of Lucifer's rebellion doesn't tell us that there was war in heaven. It tells us that there are no mental health services in heaven.

Of course, the people who wrote the story wouldn't have known that since they lived centuries before psychology began to be understood.

[William]

There are wonderful points being made by all the posters in this thread.

Some of the comments I lean toward agreeing with are the following.

1. The one that is defined as "the devil", "Satan" etcetera is an Angel working for God.

2. Does the Bible itself claim that God's revelation is over? Couldn't have God inspired Milton?

3. He wanted to be like the most high God. He wanted to exalt his throne above the stars, or angels, of God.

Satan then ruled the earth. How do we know that Lucifer rules the earth? In the book of Luke, when Satan tempted Jesus for forty days in the desert, Satan offered Jesus power over all the kingdoms of the earth:
4. Since the Revelation to John was written before the writings were become known as the Bible were collected, John could not have been referring to the Bible. John, in context, could only be referring to the Revelation the he had written. There is nothing in the Bible which clearly and unequivoc

5. Now I certainly don't know, but if the book of revelation was not in fact written by John the Evangelist then it was written simply by a random man with "visions of God" and really that claim has little validity anyway.ally says that God has stopped talking to people.

6. You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."

But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

7. The word lucifer is a latin word meaning "light-bearer" and was a Roman astrological term for the morning star. It wasn't thought as a metaphoric term for Satan until much later interpretations of the Bible and wasn't popularized as a term until used in the works of writers and poets such as Dante and Milton.

8. Since Revelation was placed at the end of the NT, the church has presumed since the Middle Ages that the prohibition referred to the Bible as a whole.

9. I have a new question:
If Satan was supposedly cast down from heaven so long ago, why is he still in heaven talking to God in the old testament?

10. All of the angels met with God in heaven, Satan is an archangel and apparently got that memo, and tagged along.

11. I still don't see the proof that Satan was cast down from Heaven. Shouldn't that have been an important factor in the Old Testament: the line between good and evil? Or perhaps the newly developing Christians felt it a bad move to attribute all evil to God so they presented Satan's fall after the fact (as a scapegoat)?

12. The Christian NT conception of Satan, on the other hand, is of an unofficial god of evil likely derived from Persian Zoroastrian influences. Satan is similar to the Zoroastrian god of evil Ahriman, a being juxtaposed against a good Godlike entity known as Ahura Mazda. Early Christianity became enamored of the black/white, good/evil philosophy of Zoroastrianism and apparently needed an eternal bogeyman to be the "fall guy" so that God and Jesus could be disassociated from evil in the world.

13. Joseph Smith restored the Bible into the Joseph Smith bible (Inspired Version).

Example: He added the sentence into Genesis that described him, Joseph Smith, as Greatest Prophet of all time. Its my favourite sentence in the bible.

14. Yes. While It is clear to me that the Satan of wart in heaven is a total fairy tale and nonsensical too, because God could deal with satan and all his angels as easily as the Sorcerer dealt with Mickey mouse - and Satan would know it, I see no evidence at all for that, but t best a gofor, tempter and deceiver of God (which shouldn't even be possible) and genral fall guy to take the blame for everything that goes wrong, if it can't be blamed on man.

I noted the suggestion that God might have inspired Milton or indeed Vaughan Williams (any excuse) which is not going to impress doubters, even if it is just what believers like - letting a god take credit for a man's work.

15. Lucifer doesn't describe a being who's merely a prideful rebel. It describes a being who is insane, delusionally detached from reality. Thus, the story of Lucifer's rebellion doesn't tell us that there was war in heaven. It tells us that there are no mental health services in heaven.

Of course, the people who wrote the story wouldn't have known that since they lived centuries before psychology began to be understood.

______________

GPT. There are various perspectives and interpretations being discussed in the thread, reflecting diverse views on this theological matter.

Satan as an Angel working for God:
Continuation of God's Revelation:
Satan's desire to be like God:
Interpretation of Revelation:
Origin of the term Lucifer:
Presence of Satan in Heaven in the Old Testament:
Zoroastrian influences on Christian conception of Satan:
Joseph Smith's contributions to the Bible:
Skepticism about Satan's role:
Psychological interpretation of Lucifer's rebellion:

It's clear that the discussion involves a range of theological, historical, and interpretative viewpoints, showcasing the diversity of perspectives on these complex and deeply philosophical topics.

Me. For my part, when I read the above in congruity, I am reminded of Jung’s Archetypes. Alongside that, is Jesus saying that “the kingdom of God is within” signifying an agreement with Jung/Jungs agreement with Jesus allows for me to understand the narrative is pinpointing the nature of what goes on inside the mind of a human being, which translates to what goes on inside the collective mind of humanity.

Now we can examine the idea that something within the construct of a human personality is “The overall boss-creator” and something else within the human psyche wants to usurp that position for itself and run things the way it sees fit to do so.
This inner activity spills out into the external world – effectively explaining why humans are presently in the position they collectively are.


GPT. The idea you're exploring aligns with a psychological interpretation of power dynamics within the human psyche, reflecting on the inner struggle for control and influence. Let's break down the concept:

1. The Overall Boss-Creator: This could be seen as the higher, transcendent, or divine aspect within the human psyche. It represents the innate wisdom, moral compass, or the sense of connection to a higher purpose. It might be linked to the Jungian archetype of the Self, representing the unification of the conscious and unconscious aspects of the personality.

2. Usurpation Attempt: The notion that something within the psyche wants to usurp the position of the Overall Boss-creator suggests an internal power struggle. This could be interpreted as the ego, the more conscious and self-aware aspect of the psyche, attempting to assert dominance over the deeper, more transcendent aspects. It may reflect desires for control, material gains, or the pursuit of personal agendas.

3. External Manifestation: The inner dynamics spill out into the external world, affecting the collective human experience. This external manifestation could include power struggles, conflicts, moral dilemmas, and societal issues. The idea is that the internal dynamics within individuals collectively contribute to the state of the world.

4. Collective Human Position: The present collective human position, as you suggest, may be a result of this inner struggle playing out on a societal scale. It could manifest as societal structures, power dynamics, and cultural values shaped by the prevailing balance or imbalance in the inner psychological forces within individuals.

In this interpretation, the external world becomes a reflection or projection of the internal psychic dynamics at play within individuals. This perspective emphasizes the interconnectedness of individual and collective consciousness and how internal psychological processes can shape the external reality experienced by humanity. It also underscores the importance of understanding and reconciling internal conflicts for the betterment of the collective human experience.

[bjs1]

The "war in heaven" comes from Revelation 12:7-9, which says, "Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him."

Remember that Revelation is an inherently symbolic book. It should never be taken completely literally. The "war in heaven" most likely does not represent a literal war in presence of God, but rather is a symbolic way of describing the struggle in a Christian's soul.