How can Christianity convince Jews to see the light?

[Confused]

Historically, Jews were oppressed/persecuted/exterminated before the coming of Jesus and they continued to be oppressed/persecuted/exterminated after the death of Jesus. They continue this same pattern even today.
Now, Christianity has flourished, has become the dominant religion. Jesus, as the Christ, has brought unity to the masses. And still Jews continue to reject Him as the Messiah.

What can Christians offer Jews that would make them see the light? Make them understand, in the context that Jews would understand within their own ideology, that Jesus is the way, the only way?

[cnorman18]

No doubt there are still those with contrary views. Yet the fact remains there are numerous Messianic synagogues springing up of those who have made a decision for Christ.

I'm still wondering why I have to go to largely Messianic and pro-Christian sites to find the references that the Judiasm crowd doesn't like to mention.


Ignorance abounds on both sides of the issues. I can also point you to Jewish writings and quotations from those who deny there was a literal exodus from Egypt; who say the Torah is predominately allegorical; and even those Jews who don't believe the God of the Tanakh is real. Doesn't change anything.

If our ministers deny the basic truths of Christ I'd just as soon they trade in their white collars for a choker. They're an embarrassment to the faith. The scriptures themselves are the source to be reckoned with.


Pick your best one (just 1 - your best 1) from the NT and we can see how far it flys.

I've previously presented scriptural references that speak of spiritual seed, so I don't feel like I need to jump through any hoops to make the case further.

In the Gospels, when Jesus declared all foods to be clean. And in the book of Acts, with the exception of blood and meat sacrificed to idols.

Like I've said many times, the moral laws (adultery, murder, etc.), have never been abolished. You say they have? Where?

If you've noticed, I normally back up my arguments with the scriptures themselves as the foundation.


Now everyone of every tongue is supposed to worship Israel, and Israel comes on the clouds of heaven and has sovereign power? The scriptures say to worship God only.

The info I have has Rashi, in his commentary on Daniel 7:13-14, as writing three simple words: "hu melekh ha-mashiach" ("he is the King Messiah").

Anyway, you're welcome to your beliefs. I commend you for stating them and defending them, as opposed to some other timid souls who are unwilling or unable to do that. We shall agree to disagree.

God bless!

I don't wish to be seen as picking a fight here, but does "you're welcome to your beliefs" mean that you no longer feel that the effort to convert Jews to Christianity is legitimate or advisable?

A couple of observations:

From what I have seen personally, most members of "messianic synagogues" are not former Jews, but Christians who are attracted to Judaism but are not yet willing to give up Jesus. I personally know several converts to Judaism from Christianity that spent some time in "messianic synagogues" on their way to becoming Jews.

Also, I have never met nor communicated with a single genuine "messianic Jew" who was at all knowledgable or observant of Judaism before becoming a Christian. Not one, including one who posts on this forum. They have all, in my experience, been raised as secular or casual Jews who had never received more than minimal instruction, if any at all, in their own faith.

Finally, I feel compelled that your response to my last post did not even acknowledge, let alone answer, a single point that I made. Not one. In most cases, you missed, or ignored, the point completely, or countered points I explicitly did not intend to make, or, often, just deleted them with no comment or response at all. I'll decline to go through the exchange again and prove this; it's patently obvious to anyone who reads both posts anyway. As far as I am concerned, the matter is closed.

I say again: I have the utmost respect and even reverence for the Christian religion and for Christians, and affirm their right to read and interpret the Bible in any way they choose, to believe in God in any manner they choose, and to serve the God we both worship in the way they think best.

I only ask that Christians extend that same courtesy to Jews.

[Zzyzx]

.

Finally, I feel compelled that your response to my last post did not even acknowledge, let alone answer, a single point that I made. Not one. In most cases, you missed, or ignored, the point completely, or countered points I explicitly did not intend to make, or, often, just deleted them with no comment or response at all. I'll decline to go through the exchange again and prove this; it's patently obvious to anyone who reads both posts anyway. As far as I am concerned, the matter is closed.

What you observe is accurate – it is that member’s typical pattern.

Perhaps defense of “fundamental” Christianity cannot be done in an honest and straight-forward manner – with honorable debate.

I say again: I have the utmost respect and even reverence for the Christian religion and for Christians, and affirm their right to read and interpret the Bible in any way they choose, to believe in God in any manner they choose, and to serve the God we both worship in the way they think best.

I only ask that Christians extend that same courtesy to Jews.

That is a very reasonable position. Most Christians would probably respect what you say; however, some fanatical "believers" cannot acknowledge that anyone else's belief is worthy of respect.

[cnorman18]

.
What you observe is accurate – it is that member’s typical pattern.

Well, maybe; but I prefer to let every post speak for itself. We've had some cordial exchanges in the past, and no doubt will again. I myself have been categorized after having a bad day, and I didn't like it; and, well, you know, "Do as you would be done by," and all that.

Perhaps defense of “fundamental” Christianity cannot be done in an honest and straight-forward manner – with honorable debate.

I think it's been attempted; I think it was attempted here.

It's hard to reply to points that you can't answer. It's even harder to admit it when you've been proven wrong, though I don't say that that is what happened here.

It's happened to me, and I take a positive pleasure in conceding defeat with as much grace and good will as I can manage. Freaks my opponents right out.

But to be honest, I don't know how I would react if that were to happen with one of my core convictions. I hope I would yield in good humor, but I can't guarantee it. I might revert to one of the classical options: (1) fly into a spitting rage and try to kill the messenger, so to speak; (2) post a bunch of offtopic BS to cover my embarrassment; (3) lie; or (4) run away and hide.

Trouble is, speaking honestly and with integrity IS one of my core convictions. I guess it's like what every soldier knows: you don't know if you've really got what it takes till you're facing real bullets.

Anyway, it's not for me to judge. We all do the best we can here, and missing or even ducking a point isn't the same as deliberately distorting one or substituting your own after you've already been called on it.

I say again: I have the utmost respect and even reverence for the Christian religion and for Christians, and affirm their right to read and interpret the Bible in any way they choose, to believe in God in any manner they choose, and to serve the God we both worship in the way they think best.

I only ask that Christians extend that same courtesy to Jews.

That is a very reasonable position. Most Christians would probably respect what you say; however, some fanatical "believers" cannot acknowledge that anyone else's belief is worthy of respect.

That is sadly true; and I have noticed that same attitude in a number of militant atheists, who really ought to know better. At least Christian fundamentalists have the reasonable excuse of being sincerely worried that I'm going to Hell.

[Easyrider]

I don't wish to be seen as picking a fight here, but does "you're welcome to your beliefs" mean that you no longer feel that the effort to convert Jews to Christianity is legitimate or advisable?

Nope. I'm still here for you.

A couple of observations:

From what I have seen personally, most members of "messianic synagogues" are not former Jews, but Christians who are attracted to Judaism but are not yet willing to give up Jesus.

There might well be some of those, I don't know. But I think if you start calling around and taking your own unbiased, personal poll, you'll find a great many former Jews in the ranks worshiping God / Jesus.

Also, I have never met nor communicated with a single genuine "messianic Jew" who was at all knowledgable or observant of Judaism before becoming a Christian. Not one, including one who posts on this forum. They have all, in my experience, been raised as secular or casual Jews who had never received more than minimal instruction, if any at all, in their own faith.

Well, my opinion is if they were ever truly knowledgable and observant in the ways of God they would be Christians, since Christ is the Jewish Messiah, and since what is now called Christianity is the legitimate fulfillment of OT Judaism. The Jews in the NT did not suddenly become Christians and ceased being Jewish - rather they discovered that being in Christ is what Judaism was always intended to be.

Finally, I feel compelled that your response to my last post did not even acknowledge, let alone answer, a single point that I made. Not one. In most cases, you missed, or ignored, the point completely, or countered points I explicitly did not intend to make, or, often, just deleted them with no comment or response at all.

That's your opinion. I countered your Rashi claim with his quoted commentary stating that Daniel 7:13-14 was indeed Messianic. I also think we'd both be better served if all the rabbinic quotes that you guys seldom see (probably because they look too much like Christ / or the Messiah) were contained in full in some internet website(s). So, if you have such a database that's complete, I'd love to see it.

I say again: I have the utmost respect and even reverence for the Christian religion and for Christians, and affirm their right to read and interpret the Bible in any way they choose, to believe in God in any manner they choose, and to serve the God we both worship in the way they think best.

I only ask that Christians extend that same courtesy to Jews.

Debating the different merits of our two faiths in this forum does not constitute in any way an assault or attack on the rights of Jews to interpret their scriptures and commentaries, and worship, as they see fit.

Is there some particular movement in the U.S. by Christian groups to deny Jews the right to speak and worship according to their faith as they see fit? If there is I haven't heard about it, and I certainly wouldn't support it.

[cnorman18]

I don't wish to be seen as picking a fight here, but does "you're welcome to your beliefs" mean that you no longer feel that the effort to convert Jews to Christianity is legitimate or advisable?

Nope. I'm still here for you.

Well, I guess it's good to know there are things in life you can depend on...

A couple of observations:

From what I have seen personally, most members of "messianic synagogues" are not former Jews, but Christians who are attracted to Judaism but are not yet willing to give up Jesus.

There might well be some of those, I don't know. But I think if you start calling around and taking your own unbiased, personal poll, you'll find a great many former Jews in the ranks worshiping God / Jesus.

Also, I have never met nor communicated with a single genuine "messianic Jew" who was at all knowledgable or observant of Judaism before becoming a Christian. Not one, including one who posts on this forum. They have all, in my experience, been raised as secular or casual Jews who had never received more than minimal instruction, if any at all, in their own faith.

Well, my opinion is if they were ever truly knowledgable and observant in the ways of God they would be Christians, since Christ is the Jewish Messiah, and since what is now called Christianity is the legitimate fulfillment of OT Judaism. The Jews in the NT did not suddenly become Christians and ceased being Jewish - rather they discovered that being in Christ is what Judaism was always intended to be.

Once again, you have avoided my point and substituted your own.

You also might want to take a look a a new thread I just started, entitled "Unacceptable Attitudes." Pay close attention to the section on "assuming facts not in evidence."

Finally, I feel compelled that your response to my last post did not even acknowledge, let alone answer, a single point that I made. Not one. In most cases, you missed, or ignored, the point completely, or countered points I explicitly did not intend to make, or, often, just deleted them with no comment or response at all.

That's your opinion. I countered your Rashi claim with his quoted commentary stating that Daniel 7:13-14 was indeed Messianic.

Okay, I'll concede that you did answer that one.

With all due respect--that makes one, and it was a subsidiary and supporting point at that. There were more than a few others, much larger and more important than a mere refrence to Rashi, which you did not address at all; and it's a bit dishonest to pretend that you did.

I also think we'd both be better served if all the rabbinic quotes that you guys seldom see (probably because they look too much like Christ / or the Messiah) were contained in full in some internet website(s). So, if you have such a database that's complete, I'd love to see it.

We don't need one. The Christians (including "measianic Jews") have provided plenty.

I say again: I have the utmost respect and even reverence for the Christian religion and for Christians, and affirm their right to read and interpret the Bible in any way they choose, to believe in God in any manner they choose, and to serve the God we both worship in the way they think best.

I only ask that Christians extend that same courtesy to Jews.

Debating the different merits of our two faiths in this forum does not constitute in any way an assault or attack on the rights of Jews to interpret their scriptures and commentaries, and worship, as they see fit.

In the way you have done it, of course they do. Claiming that Christians understand what the Bible "actually teaches" and that Jews ignore it is as clear an attack as is imaginable.

Is there some particular movement in the U.S. by Christian groups to deny Jews the right to speak and worship according to their faith as they see fit? If there is I haven't heard about it, and I certainly wouldn't support it.

There is a very large movement, of which you are most certainly a part, which seeks to illegitimize the Jewish understanding of the Scriptures, declare Judaism false, obsolete and contrary to the will of God, and convince Jews that they are condemned to Hell if they continue to follow the faith that Jesus himself practiced.

That'll do.

Don't pretend our approaches to the differences between our religions are equivalent. They aren't.

[Easyrider]

Also, I have never met nor communicated with a single genuine "messianic Jew" who was at all knowledgable or observant of Judaism before becoming a Christian. Not one, including one who posts on this forum. They have all, in my experience, been raised as secular or casual Jews who had never received more than minimal instruction, if any at all, in their own faith.

Well, my opinion is if they were ever truly knowledgable and observant in the ways of God they would be Christians, since Christ is the Jewish Messiah, and since what is now called Christianity is the legitimate fulfillment of OT Judaism. The Jews in the NT did not suddenly become Christians and ceased being Jewish - rather they discovered that being in Christ is what Judaism was always intended to be.

Once again, you have avoided my point and substituted your own.

Your point is one man's opinion based on limited experiences. You've certainly not visited all the Messianic congregations in America and determined to anyone's satisfaction that there aren't a significant number of former / knowledgable adherents of Judaism who are now Christians. In psychology your argument is called, "I knew a man once" ('who never knew knowledgable converts to Christianity'). We can all do those kinds of self-serving arguments.

You also might want to take a look a a new thread I just started, entitled "Unacceptable Attitudes." Pay close attention to the section on "assuming facts not in evidence."

Seems like you're the one who just posited "facts not in evidence." I see no documentation for your claims, other than it being one individual's purported observations.

Okay, I'll concede that you did answer that one.

With all due respect--that makes one, and it was a subsidiary and supporting point at that. There were more than a few others, much larger and more important than a mere refrence to Rashi, which you did not address at all; and it's a bit dishonest to pretend that you did.

I think you need to go back and revisit that post. I don't agree with your assessment. But if you have one or two particular points you're real fond of that you feel a need for an answer to, just recite it. I don't have all the time there is to always answer each poster's arguments, point by point. And if you need other rabbinic references to pro-Christian passages please review the following:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/messiah.html

I also think we'd both be better served if all the rabbinic quotes that you guys seldom see (probably because they look too much like Christ / or the Messiah) were contained in full in some internet website(s). So, if you have such a database that's complete, I'd love to see it.

We don't need one. The Christians (including "measianic Jews") have provided plenty.

Well, I've had a number of posters say they're forgeries, etc., or a blatant lie. It would be helpful to have the full database on file, and let the chips fall where they may.

Debating the different merits of our two faiths in this forum does not constitute in any way an assault or attack on the rights of Jews to interpret their scriptures and commentaries, and worship, as they see fit.

In the way you have done it, of course they do. Claiming that Christians understand what the Bible "actually teaches" and that Jews ignore it is as clear an attack as is imaginable.

Well I'm not here to leave you warm and fuzzy in your beliefs. I think you're mistaken about Christ and am just as ardent in my beliefs as you probably are about yours. But no where are your RIGHTS to worship or believe as you do being abrogated via law.

Is there some particular movement in the U.S. by Christian groups to deny Jews the right to speak and worship according to their faith as they see fit? If there is I haven't heard about it, and I certainly wouldn't support it.

There is a very large movement, of which you are most certainly a part, which seeks to illegitimize the Jewish understanding of the Scriptures, declare Judaism false, obsolete and contrary to the will of God, and convince Jews that they are condemned to Hell if they continue to follow the faith that Jesus himself practiced.

Uh huh. And anti-Christian proponents and websites (Jews for Judaism) that malign Christianity, seek to illegitimize the Christian understanding of our scriptures, and make specious arguments, often distorting NT events, passages, and doctrines, are less offensive to us and our faith?

Besides, if what we argue is true about Jesus Christ being Lord and Jewish Messiah, about hell being real, etc., then your eternal destiny hinges on hearing arguments and challenges from someone that you will not find initially comforting. The truth often disturbs people, but it is what it is nevertheless.

Don't pretend our approaches to the differences between our religions are equivalent. They aren't.

See above.

[Flail]

I know many people who switch back and forth and some who are adamant about their initial choice....I like Pepsi.

[Goat]

I know many people who switch back and forth and some who are adamant about their initial choice....I like Pepsi.

Heretic. Don't you know Jamaican style ginger ale is the only way to go!

[cnorman18]

Your point is one man's opinion based on limited experiences.

I never said it was anything else. If you can post information proving that the majority of "messianic Jews" are in fact ethnically or originally Jewish, let's see it. I've looked around at the messianic websites, and they don't seem to want to talk about it. My limited information, which I admit is based only on my own experience, seems to be the only information on the table.

You've certainly not visited all the Messianic congregations in America and determined to anyone's satisfaction that there aren't a significant number of former / knowledgable adherents of Judaism who are now Christians.

Neither have you, in order to claim that there are. If you can find some hard numbers, let's see 'em. Otherwise, I'll stand by my personal observations.

I think you need to go back and revisit that post. I don't agree with your assessment. But if you have one or two particular points you're real fond of that you feel a need for an answer to, just recite it.

Okay. I count eight major points to which you did not reply. Do you seriously claim that you did?

1. "...for every quotation these "experts" can find that "proves" that Jesus was the Messiah by implication, inferral or convoluted interpretation, there are literally hundreds that say explicitly, clearly and specifically and often by name that he was not.... Now why do you suppose this "researcher" ignored and omitted those many, many, many quotations? It sure wasn't because he was really interested in what the sages and rabbis really had to say about Jesus, or because he wanted to find out what Jewish traditions about the Messiah really were."

(If you're trying to prove that Jewish tradition endorses Jesus as the Messiah, you have to explain why the overwhelming majority of it does not. Efforts to prove otherwise are lying by omission, and hugely so.)

2. (Edited for order only) "In every religion that relies on the Bible, it is not the plain Biblical text that is authoritative; it is the tradition of interpretation and teaching that surrounds and explains it.... No one reads the Bible literally and uses it as a guide for belief and practice with no intervening analysis or cognitive judgment being applied. The Bible itself precludes such an approach, and absolutely so.... Both of our traditions approach the text with the utmost seriousness and reverence, and try to understand it through the thought and prayerful reflection of the very best and wisest of our respective peoples... Jews do not argue with the Christian tradition of interpretation; for all we know, God may intend you to believe just as you do. [But] We don't think that you have the right to tell us that your human interpretation of the Bible has any more credibility or authority than our own.
So do not tell me that Christians are guided by what the Bible "actually teaches" while Jews ignore the Bible and merely impose their own ideas. Both of those propositions are outright falsehoods."

3. "You. have not managed to show me a single case where Messiah is described to be the literal son of God, as Hercules was said to be the son of Zeus; and that literal claim is rather clearly found in the NT. There is no blather about "emanations" and the like there; Jesus had no earthly father, and his actual, literal father is claimed to be God. Where is that idea to be found in Jewish tradition or literature?"

4. "And all the material which you claim "proves" that the Messiah would be divine is a matter of nuance, connection, implication, or a misreading of names. Nowhere is there any quote that says, "God Himself will take human form and live and die as a man." Nowhere."

5. "In Jewish tradition, Messiah will be recognized by the institution of the Messianic Age, an age of universal peace and justice and reverence for God. If the Bible "actually teaches" anything about the Messiah, it is that."

6. "He is also to be a literal King, sitting on the throne of David and literally reigning over Israel. That is also extremely clear and consistent in both the Biblical text and in Jewish tradition...."

7. "And all your explanations and excuses for why neither of these conditions were fulfilled by Jesus are human interpretations, to which you give more authority than the plain words of the Bible."

8. "We believe we ought to focus on the beliefs we share, which are many, and focus our joint efforts on making this world a better place."

There you go. Try to address my actual points this time; and don't tell me you don't have the time. Take two weeks or a month if you like.

I also think we'd both be better served if all the rabbinic quotes that you guys seldom see (probably because they look too much like Christ / or the Messiah) were contained in full in some internet website(s). So, if you have such a database that's complete, I'd love to see it.

We don't need one. The Christians (including "messianic Jews") have provided plenty.

Well, I've had a number of posters say they're forgeries, etc., or a blatant lie.

Are they? Are you sure? Why?

It would be helpful to have the full database on file, and let the chips fall where they may.

Why on Earth would you make Jews responsible for a resource that falsifies the overwhelming bulk of the own tradition? Can I suggest a Christian website where the views of all the splinter groups and nutcases
that deny the divinity or the existence of Jesus would be gathered for reference? (I WOULDN'T, just so you won't address that as a point; but that's the equivalent.)

Debating the different merits of our two faiths in this forum does not constitute in any way an assault or attack on the rights of Jews to interpret their scriptures and commentaries, and worship, as they see fit.

In the way you have done it, of course they do. Claiming that Christians understand what the Bible "actually teaches" and that Jews ignore it is as clear an attack as is imaginable.

Well I'm not here to leave you warm and fuzzy in your beliefs. I think you're mistaken about Christ and am just as ardent in my beliefs as you probably are about yours. But no where are your RIGHTS to worship or believe as you do being abrogated via law.

I don't think that requires comment.

Is there some particular movement in the U.S. by Christian groups to deny Jews the right to speak and worship according to their faith as they see fit? If there is I haven't heard about it, and I certainly wouldn't support it.

There is a very large movement, of which you are most certainly a part, which seeks to illegitimize the Jewish understanding of the Scriptures, declare Judaism false, obsolete and contrary to the will of God, and convince Jews that they are condemned to Hell if they continue to follow the faith that Jesus himself practiced.

Uh huh. And anti-Christian proponents and websites (Jews for Judaism) that malign Christianity, seek to illegitimize the Christian understanding of our scriptures, and make specious arguments, often distorting NT events, passages, and doctrines, are less offensive to us and our faith?

Show me a single quote from a recognized Jewish leader from any mainstream Jewish organization that says that Christianity is a false religion or that God condemns Christians for their beliefs. Just one.

Saying that Jesus was not the Jewish messiah is NOT the same thing.

Besides, if what we argue is true about Jesus Christ being Lord and Jewish Messiah, about hell being real, etc., then your eternal destiny hinges on hearing arguments and challenges from someone that you will not find initially comforting. The truth often disturbs people, but it is what it is nevertheless.

In your opinion. You keep leaving that out.

Don't pretend our approaches to the differences between our religions are equivalent. They aren't.

And they still aren't.

[Goat]

Your point is one man's opinion based on limited experiences.

I never said it was anything else. If you can post information proving that the majority of "messianic Jews" are in fact ethnically or originally Jewish, let's see it. I've looked around at the messianic websites, and they don't seem to want to talk about it. My limited information, which I admit is based only on my own experience, seems to be the only information on the table.

I find that most of the ones I have come across were Christians or extremely secular.

The Jewish people who I know who converted tended to go to a more traditional Christianity, mind you, with a more Jewish mindset, but don't go for the Jewish
holidays.