Questions about the Earth

[servant]

Did science or the bible first note that the earth hangs on nothing?

Did science or the bible first note that the earth was a circle and not flat?

[Revelations won]

Dear DrNoGods

It is obvious that you cannot find any error or failure in God's divine plan for this earth.

Perhaps by way of clarification I should have presented my response as "God science" which is most appropriate, since he is indeed the "master scientist", which has all knowledge, all power and all understanding and of course the most known experience in organizing worlds without number.... Not only do you not know how all this is done, but you cannot even count the number of His creations.


Wow! I am all ears if you can give me answers on how all this began and how it is all organized and for what eternal purpose???

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 121 by Revelations won]

It is obvious that you cannot find any error or failure in God's divine plan for this earth.

I'm not sure what that statement means. I didn't make any comments concerning that issue one way or another, so how you come up with that conclusion is a mystery. I simply stated that if you assume the existence of a creator, then it follows that you can attribute anything and everything to that entity that you like, without any evidence that such a being exists.

Since I am an atheist, I don't believe there is any "divine plan" for this earth, or that any god being exists. So I'm not sure how I could find fault with a divine plan that I don't believe exists. Do you know what this divine plan is? Does it come from the christian bible, or some other holy book that may have a different description?

Not only do you not know how all this is done, but you cannot even count the number of His creations.

Again, you are assuming that a creator exists. How do you know this being actually does exist? It is an assumption on your part that you cannot prove, and of course I cannot prove that such a creator does not exist. But science has shown too many things in various holy books (including the christian bible) to be outright false (eg. Noah's flood), and it has explained a great number of things that in the time of the writing of these old holy books were attributed to gods (or a single god depending on the particular holy text in question), that there is no longer a need to believe in these imaginary beings.

Wow! I am all ears if you can give me answers on how all this began and how it is all organized and for what eternal purpose???

Is "this" the present universe?, our planet?, human beings? We do have reasonable theories on how the universe may have begin, and we know with a high degree of confidence how and when our solar system and our planet formed, and how orbits are stabilized, how stars work, etc. And all of this is documented in mountains of publicly-available literature that you can read.

Why is there any need for an "eternal purpose." The universe doesn't need any such thing to exist and continue. Human beings evolved from a great ape ancestor, and the universe doesn't care whether that happened, or not. Human beings will likely be extinct long before our sun goes red dwarf in 4-6 billion years, or the Andromeda galaxy merges with the Milky Way about that same time frame, and if there is life on Earth at that time it is highly unlikely to resemble anything like humans or the other forms we have on Earth today. There is no need for any "eternal purpose", although I understand that if you believe a creator exists it would make sense to believe "it" designed things for some purpose. But if there is no intelligent designer, there is no need for any purpose to our existence. We (humans) happened as a result of an evolutionary process that is now well established, and there was no need for a designer or creator in the process.

[Kenisaw]

In the OP of this topic it appears that the author has chosen to place himself above the creator.

From my viewpoint, I see that God, our divine creator is extremely experienced in the creation of the heavens and worlds without number. At present there is no man or woman that is capable of numbering the creations of God, since none of us has the means in the first place to discover all his creations. I think it may be safe to say that there is no end to his creations, for this is obviously an ongoing process. Even on this earth we are told that when it has fulfilled it's current destiny, he will proceed to create a "New heaven and a new earth".

While you wrote that very nicely, I must point out that all of it is nothing but mere assumption on your part. It's baseless conjecture. If I am supposed to consider gods as plausible explanations for something, it'd be nice if someone proved the existence of those gods first for me...

The Lord prepared a garden eastward in Eden for Adam and his posterity. In Genesis we are told that all these creation were "good".

Right. A perfect being created man, then realized the man was lonely, and so made animals for him, then realized he was still lonely, and then made Eve. You'd think a perfect being with all kinds of experience doing stuff like this would've known that right off the bat...

Further everything and every person in this garden was placed there for a divine purpose. There was NO mistake or failure in God's plan, as everything went according to his plans, which never fail. (Remember that He knows fully the beginning and the end of his designs for this earth.)

Which means your all loving and all good god wanted man to fail. I completely agree with this by the way, humans were set up to fail. It's nice to see a believer admit it for once, well done you...

As I see it, God's ultimate work and glory is: " to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man".

Is there anyone who can demonstrate any error or failure in His divine plan?

So this being's ultimate work is to bring to pass the eternal life of man. Instead of making Eden idiot-proof, he creates a tree no one can eat from and a serpent to get the people to eat from it, so that they can fall from grace. Then he makes all of the descendants of these people suffer even though these descendants had nothing to do with eating from that tree. Then, to fix all this, he sends his kid down to be killed as a sacrifice, even though he had all the Canaanite's killed for...wait for it...sacrificing their kids as a sacrifice.

Yeah, no error there whatsoever...

[Clownboat]

As I see it, God's ultimate...

Stop doing that. I would imagine this is how we got a world full of so many competing god concepts.

Oh the musings of humans.

That humans have an imagination is not being debated here.

[Revelations won]

Dear DrNoGods,

You said: “Since I am an atheist, I don't believe there is any "divine plan" for this earth, or that any god being exists. So I'm not sure how I could find fault with a divine plan that I don't believe exists.

Answer: Thank you for your honest response.

You next asked: “ Do you know what this divine plan is?�

Answer: Yes, I know what that divine plan is.

You next asked: “ Does it come from the christian bible, or some other holy book that may have a different description?�

Answer: Yea and Yes to the second part of your questions.


You next stated: “Again, you are assuming that a creator exists. How do you know this being actually does exist? It is an assumption on your part that you cannot prove, and of course I cannot prove that such a creator does not exist.�

Answer: Your response is from my observation fair and balanced. You appear to be assuming that I am assuming these things.

You next stated: “But science has shown too many things in various holy books (including the christian bible) to be outright false (eg. Noah's flood), and it has explained a great number of things that in the time of the writing of these old holy books were attributed to gods (or a single god depending on the particular holy text in question), that there is no longer a need to believe in these imaginary beings.�

Answer: You claim, for example, that the flood described in the days of Noah did not exist. Hmmmm..

As a personal example, I was born in an area many miles from the ocean in a town located about 3200 feet above sea level and there in those hills around our home on the surface and under rocks, countless sea shells. Can you tell me how and when these salt water clams and oysters had sea water to allow their growth at this elevation and location? Another personal example is that I currently own other mountain property located about 7000 foot elevation and on that property there is a point known as “Brecia Knob� which contains many layers of sea fossil shells. This property is located about 600 miles from any ocean. Can you tell me when and how this vast sea life evidence appears at these locations?


In conclusion, you should understand that from my perspective I do not find true and accurate science to be in conflict with religion. To the contrary, I believe they support each other, for true religion also embodies all truth, from any source.

Perhaps one of the biggest rifts between science and religion is the doctrine espoused by many Christian sects is that of “Ex-Nihilo creation�. Please understand that I ascribe to no such doctrine. As I see it there is no record in the Bible which declares this doctrine of creation, thus it appears to be a “man made� doctrine. It certainly is in direct conflict with current scientific studies.

There are some christians who argue that that the earth and all like thereon were crated in 6 24 hour periods... For them to prove such would be a far fetch! I would ask, does this appear true according to current research?

It appears that you have great faith in the “big bang theory� or other theories regarding creation, which have not presented infallible proofs.
Perhaps we should explore other creation views as well.

Regards,
RT

[Kenisaw]

As a personal example, I was born in an area many miles from the ocean in a town located about 3200 feet above sea level and there in those hills around our home on the surface and under rocks, countless sea shells. Can you tell me how and when these salt water clams and oysters had sea water to allow their growth at this elevation and location?

Yes. The land was lower, and under water, millions of years ago. And it wasn't at that longitude and latitude when they lived either. Continents move. You know this of course (even if you don't accept it), so asking this question is rather pointless in my opinion.

The facts and data that have led to the formation of the Plate Tectonic theory are numerous indeed. It is a well supported and constantly verified scientific theory. Plate tectonics happen everywhere, all the time.

Another personal example is that I currently own other mountain property located about 7000 foot elevation and on that property there is a point known as “Brecia Knob� which contains many layers of sea fossil shells. This property is located about 600 miles from any ocean. Can you tell me when and how this vast sea life evidence appears at these locations?

Same as in your first example, with an additional erosional deposition and cementification. What's interesting about this particular example is if you realize how a breccia forms in the first place. Because it sure can't happen in one big global flood event...

In conclusion, you should understand that from my perspective I do not find true and accurate science to be in conflict with religion. To the contrary, I believe they support each other, for true religion also embodies all truth, from any source.

Then your true religion must be about as bare bones as it can get, without much claim to anything, if it agrees with science.

Perhaps one of the biggest rifts between science and religion is the doctrine espoused by many Christian sects is that of “Ex-Nihilo creation�. Please understand that I ascribe to no such doctrine. As I see it there is no record in the Bible which declares this doctrine of creation, thus it appears to be a “man made� doctrine. It certainly is in direct conflict with current scientific studies.

There are some christians who argue that that the earth and all like thereon were crated in 6 24 hour periods... For them to prove such would be a far fetch! I would ask, does this appear true according to current research?

Most Christian claims fall far short of scientific accuracy, as you are no doubt aware.

It appears that you have great faith in the “big bang theory� or other theories regarding creation, which have not presented infallible proofs.
Perhaps we should explore other creation views as well.

Regards,
RT

One does not have faith in scientific theories. One accepts them as an accurate representation of all the facts in existence at that time, and usually that acceptance only comes after making their own verification of the material in question to make sure the conclusion is solid.

There are other creation views to consider of course, but the problem with them is they have precisely zero empirical evidence supporting them. They are nothing more than speculation, devoid of a factual foundation. Which means there is nothing to consider. Until someone brings forth evidence for such views, there is no reason to consider them plausible.

Only a religious person not familiar with science would think that an "infallible proof" is an actual thing...

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 125 by Revelations won]

As a personal example, I was born in an area many miles from the ocean in a town located about 3200 feet above sea level and there in those hills around our home on the surface and under rocks, countless sea shells. Can you tell me how and when these salt water clams and oysters had sea water to allow their growth at this elevation and location? Another personal example is that I currently own other mountain property located about 7000 foot elevation and on that property there is a point known as “Brecia Knob� which contains many layers of sea fossil shells. This property is located about 600 miles from any ocean. Can you tell me when and how this vast sea life evidence appears at these locations?

I can't add to Kenisaw's response on this, and agree with those comments completely. The continents have been in continuous motion for many hundreds of millions of years, and at various points have come together as basically one large land mass or "supercontinent" (Pangaea being the most recent):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercont ... ic_history

So it isn't at all surprising to find sea shells atop mountains.

It appears that you have great faith in the “big bang theory� or other theories regarding creation, which have not presented infallible proofs. Perhaps we should explore other creation views as well.

I didn't make any comments on the big bang theory and I'm not a physicist. I only commented on the fact that there is a large number of creation myths and it is obviously not possible that all of them are true. The biblical version is just one of many, and it is "young earth creationists" who try to support a roughly 6,000 year old Earth and the literal 6 day creation narrative. I woulld think that many (most?) Christians realize that this flood story cannot be taken literally, and it is completely ridiculous for the implied age of Earth alone, independent of the many other scientific disciplines that show that the story is only that ... a myth.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 124 by Clownboat]

Yes, I know what that divine plan is.

Could you please outline what that plan is and how you verified that it was in fact God's plan and not something devised by human beings.

[Revelations won]

Dear DrNoGods, Kenisaw and Clowboat,

LOL I gave a couple of examples regarding sea shells at locations far from any sea water. I do not remember making any declaration that these evidences were a direct result of the flood mentioned in the account of Noah.

It would appear that some of you are very adept at jumping to conclusions.

Is it possible that there are perhaps more than one explanation as to the formation of these aquatic evidences and how they came to exist in their present locations?

Has the scientific community explored every possibility?

Is it possible that there still exists undiscovered facts regarding the origin, or organization of this earth?

[H.sapiens]

Dear DrNoGods, Kenisaw and Clowboat,

LOL I gave a couple of examples regarding sea shells at locations far from any sea water. I do not remember making any declaration that these evidences were a direct result of the flood mentioned in the account of Noah.

It would appear that some of you are very adept at jumping to conclusions.

Is it possible that there are perhaps more than one explanation as to the formation of these aquatic evidences and how they came to exist in their present locations?

Has the scientific community explored every possibility?

Is it possible that there still exists undiscovered facts regarding the origin, or organization of this earth?

Once a coherent, multidisciplinary solution is found and there are no creditable contrary hypothesis that have not been falsified ... we tend to call it a fact. The origin of fossilized sea shell deposits in high elevations is such a case.