I have the utmost respect for evolutionists (theistic or otherwise). I can sympthasize with this position. That being said, I might be playing Devil's advocate in this thread. These are some valid questions regarding the theology of theistic-evolutionists that I'd like to see answered:
1) Did God create man sinful? Or put another way, was there a "Fall"? If there wasn't, then God created us with sin inherent in us, did He not? If He did; why?
2) Genesis is obviously viewed as non-literal. What do you make of the Genesis account then? Is it allogorical? If yes, what does it allude to? If no, then why is it there at all?
3) I'm assuming the Noachian flood is viewed as either non-literal or non-existent? Why did God include it in the Bible?
4) What of the angelic realm. When did Satan fall, if he did at all? Were the angels created 13.7 billion years ago when the universe is said to have come into existence or later? What did they go for 13.7 billion years while they waited for humans to evolve?
5) Dawkins says in the scope of evolutionary history, humans are the end of a fingernail, or something like that. Why did God wait so long (13.7 billion years) before he brought about humans? Similarly, why did God not just create instanteously?
6) I assume you believe in the soul. Did our ape-like ancestors also have this soul? Hunter-gatherers were said to exist a million years ago. Did they have a soul? If yes, why did God wait until 5,000 or so years ago to start revealing himself to us. Also, at what point in time did humans become "imbued" with a soul, and what do you base this on?
7) Does it seem like an oxymoron for Christ to come to save us from our original state that God created us in? (This ties back to #1).
8) Apparantly 99% of species that have once existed on this earth are extinct. Why were their millions, if not billions, of years of death and suffering before humans even came along?
I just came up with these off the top of my head, so they are in no particular order or importance. I'd especially like to see how #6 is answered though. It seems to me that theistic-evolutionists have a very crippled theology (but by all means, correct me).
Theistic-evolutionist Theology
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Theistic-evolutionist Theology
Post #2In my view, as man evolved, he eventually got to a point (or at least a transition period) where he developed self-awareness or consciousness, and perhaps at some later time, a conception of good and evil and a conception of God. In my view, sin did not come into existence until at least this time.PC1 wrote:I have the utmost respect for evolutionists (theistic or otherwise). I can sympthasize with this position. That being said, I might be playing Devil's advocate in this thread. These are some valid questions regarding the theology of theistic-evolutionists that I'd like to see answered:
1) Did God create man sinful? Or put another way, was there a "Fall"? If there wasn't, then God created us with sin inherent in us, did He not? If He did; why?
The "fall" as described in Genesis I think is an allegory for this process where we became distinguished from other species in these particular ways.
Yes, I view Genesis as allegorical. I think it was probably even originally intended as such. The creation story is meant to indicate that God is the ultimate source of all that is. The story of the fall is meant as an allegory of how we came to have moral and religious sensibilities.2) Genesis is obviously viewed as non-literal. What do you make of the Genesis account then? Is it allogorical? If yes, what does it allude to? If no, then why is it there at all?
There are several possible explanations for why this story is in the Bible. I think it is possible that it was inspired by a significant, albeit regional or local, flood. This flood event may have inspired the author to create an explanation for why it occurred. Part of the message of the story is to indicate that man is capable of rejecting morality and God and that God does not like this.3) I'm assuming the Noachian flood is viewed as either non-literal or non-existent? Why did God include it in the Bible?
I don't know. I don't really have a response to this one or #4.5) Dawkins says in the scope of evolutionary history, humans are the end of a fingernail, or something like that. Why did God wait so long (13.7 billion years) before he brought about humans? Similarly, why did God not just create instanteously?
Again, I am not sure about the soul part. When the Bible says we are created in his image, I think this refers to our moral and spiritual nature.6) I assume you believe in the soul. Did our ape-like ancestors also have this soul? Hunter-gatherers were said to exist a million years ago. Did they have a soul? If yes, why did God wait until 5,000 or so years ago to start revealing himself to us. Also, at what point in time did humans become "imbued" with a soul, and what do you base this on?
I don't know. Why did God allow the enslavement of the Hebrews? Why did Jesus not come back while the Apostles were still alive, as he seemed to imply? Why did God allow the slaughter of the infants in Ramah when Herod was looking for the infant Jesus?8) Apparantly 99% of species that have once existed on this earth are extinct. Why were their millions, if not billions, of years of death and suffering before humans even came along?
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Re: Theistic-evolutionist Theology
Post #3Mitcala gave some very good answers, but I'll try to tackle this one since he passed it by:PC1 wrote:5) Dawkins says in the scope of evolutionary history, humans are the end of a fingernail, or something like that. Why did God wait so long (13.7 billion years) before he brought about humans? Similarly, why did God not just create instanteously?
What we see as time is only the illusion of the third dimension passing through the fourth. Let me explain: it's kind of like the frames of a movie on the reel giving the illusion of motion as they pass in front of the light source. When you look at the bigger picture this way, God didn't have to "wait" at all. Now, some might argue that he "fast forwarded" to ten thousand years ago, just to coincide with the YEC timeline, but statements like this are really irrelevant, as we are here now and have to live as if the entire movie was played either way.
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ken1burton
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Post #4
PC1.
You have some good questions, Often time, the best way to get the correct answer is to search for the correct question, Then often the answer is obvious.
[Did God create man sinful.?] The nature of mankind is a sinful nature. The normal desires built into mankind through hormones etc, Want, and that wanting often goes against the laws God gave. Selfishness is built into the system also, Getting what we need to survive, When we want more to insure our survival for the future, greed easily comes into the picture.
God created man with the instinct of survival, Man has to pretty much compete for survival the same as most creatures, In almost every aspect of life. In who gets to live in the cave, to modern day competitions. (Still about 50 million people live in caves today.)
If in fall, You are referring to the story of the Garden of Eden, that is a similitude, the whole creation story (ies) are not for the Beginning of life on this planet. Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the Beginning, and from ancient times, things which are not yet done. Creation, Flood, Sodom, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or most of Genesis are similitudes of things to come later.
God included Genesis to mainly give mankind a answer to their questions, Just to set the questions aside, as how this all started, is not that important, But if the question was not answered, those questions would keep coming up, interfering with what God was showing we needed to know.
All of Genesis are similitudes for the day of the Cross, From Sunset as the last Supper began, till Sunset as Jesus was just placed in the Sepulchre.
The day is made as 7 days in Isaiah 30:26
Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
Notice this is the day God heals, So the day of the Cross is as 7 days, also Genesis 2:4 shows God created the Heavens and the Earth in a DAY:
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
God takes the day and makes it as 3 pictures, or three different ways of looking at the day. First as 4 6-hour periods, seen as 4 beasts with 6-wings, Second as 2 12-hour periods seen as 2 witnesses, Third as 1 24-hour period seen as 24 Elders. All the Sevens in the Book of Revelation is seeing the day of the Cross as these three pictures, So often a third of this, or of that is seen.
The first picture, The people are as waters, as a river divided into four heads (Garden of Eden) So the waves roaring is the people against Jesus. Jesus as the Ark, the Waters or people raise up the Ark, we are with Jesus in the Ark. Notice in the Story (ies) They have entered the Ark, The flood is upon the Earth, the 40 days and Nights of rain ( THEN IN THE SELFSAME DAY) they start the story again, loading the Animals, But this time “THE LORD SHUTS THEM IN” Because the Second picture for the day of the Cross is seeing Jesus in hell, or a pit where in is no water.
The Lamb in Revelation has seven eyes. Or the seven time periods. “Let tears run down like a river” is for the day of the Cross as all prophecies are, So when God wipes away all the tears from their eyes, That ends the first picture, Behold God makes all things new, or now the Second picture starts.
The fourth river is the River Euphrates. Seen dried up in Revelation, that is the Fourth 6-hour period, or making way for the second picture as a pit where in is no water. First picture the people as waters, Second the seed of Abraham seen as the Sand, So the Sand is set as a bound that the waters go no farther.
Sunset to Midnight, Let there be Light, I am the True Vine, I am the Good Shepherd, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. In My Father’s house are many mansions, as Jesus pours out the Light.
Midnight to sunrise. People as waters, Jesus as the Firmament, Judas with 144 (seen as a wall in Revelation 21:17) are the waters ABOVE the Firmament, Sinners as waters under the Firmament, Disciples flee as Islands. The Islands which wait for His Word.
Third day, Sunrise to noon, People as waters gathered together, all in Christ “With His stripes we are healed.”
Fourth day, Noon to Sunset, this is also the MIDST of the Week when He ends the Daily Sacrifice by offering Himself. God makes two great lights, Sun seen as the Throne in Psalms 89:36 turned to Darkness as Jesus dies and they think that is the end, Moon seen as the establishment of the Throne in Psalms 89:37 turned to blood as the Blood of Christ establishes the Throne.
Fourth angel sounds in Revelation a third of the Sun, and a third of the Moon is smitten, or one of the three pictures is complete.
Fourth seal is the Pale Horse, Death followed by hell as Jesus died and descended into hell.
Jeremiah 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
The 144 are multiplied by 1,000 in Deuteronomy, they are the 144,000 of Revelation Chapter 14. They are virgins, seen by Jeremiah as men travailing with Child, the Body of Christ born the day of the Cross, This is where the Beginning belongs, Created in God’s Image, or created in the Body of Christ.
Psalms 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Jesus took away sin, So Now it can be Immanuel or GOD WITH US.
The 144 have added the Cubit or reached angel status, they are the angels given charge over Jesus, They gather all things which offend. Jesus has all sin.
Sunset to Midnight is Old Heaven, Midnight to Sunrise is old earth, Heaven and earth flee from His Face, seen as the Face of a man on the third beast with 6-wings which is new Earth from sunrise to noon, New Heaven is noon to sunset.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
All prophecies are for the day of the Cross, Mary and Bethlehem are similitudes, the day of the Cross is when the Virgin Birth is fulfilled. Because Heaven and earth also had to pass away and Old Heaven and earth did, Now He declares the End from the Beginning, Now John 1:1 applies. Old Earth had no beginning so forget the 6,000 years, The New World which started the day of the Cross has no end.
The day of the Cross had to be taken out of time, this breaks the Covenant with the Levites or ends the Priesthood, The real temple which was Destroyed, then in three days or made Truth in three pictures of the Same day, Another is raised, The Body of Christ.
Angels are a measure of a man. Adding the Cubit. Something the Churches never looked for, nor have doctrine for, although it was said if you can not do this, Why take thought for the rest.
Luke 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
This is the wall of men around Jesus on the Mount of Olives, They have the Cubit added, they are the angels given charge over Jesus. They are the 144,000. As Ezekiel said in that day, every wall would fall to the Ground, When Jesus said “I am He.” they all went backwards and fell to the ground.
Because so much is wrong in what the Churches have for Doctrine, This takes a lot, and some is very offensive. But that is how God kept it a secret for so long, Israel will be seeing the Truth of Scripture and that Jesus is the Messiah in a few more years.
Joshua 3:3 And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it.
4 Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way heretofore.
They saw the ARK and they saw the Levites or Priests bearing it up on a Cross at Golgotha in 29 A.D. this is a similitude for stay back 2,000 cubits or years till 2029 A.D. then follow. This is a future similitude for what happened the day of the Cross, They will AGAIN look on Him whom they have pierced, This time in Scripture, and this time see the Truth of the Matter.
Daniel sees the MAN Gabriel at the BEGINNING (time of Jesus’ death, saying “It is Finished.” or declaring the end from the Beginning begin to fly swiftly. Jesus just died and commended His spirit to God. That is what Daniel saw. The Spirit of Christ being commended to God. Or Gabriel begin to fly swiftly.
This earth had to be prepared for mankind, Without the Coal and oil deposits we would not have survived very long. They took a long time to come into existence, And NO, God did not just say “Let there be Coal.”
Coal and Oil are a renewable resource on earth, It just takes an Ice Age and a few million years to get some more.
The Devil and Satan are such mixed up concepts and so hard to accept who they really are, it is like Satan coming and taking away all you have, When you see the truth of Satan, You drop all you have believed and run, and are left with nothing.
Satan is an offence unto God, Upon Whom did God place all iniquity? The Devil has great wrath, When Jesus took sin, was Great wrath one of them? Did Jesus know He had but a short time when He took sins at Midnight?
The Lord devours like a Lion in Hosea 13:8, Roaring in Psalms 22:1, In Adversity in Psalms 35:15.
Satan desire to sift Peter as wheat, that is God’s word in Amos 9:9.
Satan moved God to test Job, God’s own words of “I try the hearts and reigns of men.” means Job gets tested cause or not.
Daniel is told that only Michael help in His coming (Jesus came to Daniel when He was dead the day of the Cross)
Michael is Judas Iscariot. Who was doing as God directed him to do.
The Battle is in the Garden, their place was not found in Heaven anymore because Old Heaven ended at Midnight. So they see the Holy City coming down from God out of Heaven or the 144 around Jesus coming down from the Mount of Olives. And they city is measured.
Christ is the SOUL we are created in, People seen as waters.
Psalms 69:1 Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul.
God had always planned on all mankind saved, Jesus made an end of sin and brought in everlasting righteousness as Daniel 9:24 shows, all Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled, They make the Spirit of Truth (had to be doubled twice to be establishes as Truth by God) which leads us into all truths. One prophecy was the Disciples blinded as in sleep from seeing the truth of the day of the Cross (Isaiah 29:10/12) Jesus coming to them in the Garden and telling them to sleep on, Take your rest, arise let us be going.
The Nature of the planet, It had to settle down, Had to become more gentle. Many eruptions were giant compared to what we have now. Many asteroids had to be allowed to be attracted by the planets. That is one reason for larger planets farther out from the Sun, They attract a lot of things, like Jupiter took out the Comet not too long ago. Jupiter has a huge gravitational force. Most of the Big asteroids are on the outer edge of our solar system.
So to get to us, they need to get past those outer planets first. But now, we might be able to handle them ourselves, But before, we could not.
Mankind needed to get a little civil, Be able to understand, before God could start to show Himself and have mankind retain it, Like written languages.
Micatala.
God might not have set that up, He might have come to them when enslaved, Either way, a lot of people were there to see a God that they have never known before. A real God one who fought for His people. But like Babylon, People gathered from most of the known world then, and in those 70 years, God shows Himself, and a lot of people learn of the real God, all those who died, Were in hell, or a place of sleep till Jesus died for sin, then as a holding place for the third day. Not a place or real fire or torment.
Jesus told the Disciples He was NOT COMING BACK physically. But that God and He would make their abode in us, that the Kingdom was in us, That the Kingdom does not come with observation.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
When you see Matthew in Heaven, You might want to ask Him about those slain Children. It is for the Children of Israel the day of the Cross, “No man cometh unto the Father but by Me.” resulted in the Children being NO MORE. As Israel was blinded by God from seeing Jesus was the Messiah and could therefore not come, God voided Christ’s covenant in Psalms 89:39 and concluded all mankind in unbelief. Look what that prophecy really says:
Jeremiah 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Does not really fit children slain in Bethlehem, These come again.
Ken
You have some good questions, Often time, the best way to get the correct answer is to search for the correct question, Then often the answer is obvious.
[Did God create man sinful.?] The nature of mankind is a sinful nature. The normal desires built into mankind through hormones etc, Want, and that wanting often goes against the laws God gave. Selfishness is built into the system also, Getting what we need to survive, When we want more to insure our survival for the future, greed easily comes into the picture.
God created man with the instinct of survival, Man has to pretty much compete for survival the same as most creatures, In almost every aspect of life. In who gets to live in the cave, to modern day competitions. (Still about 50 million people live in caves today.)
If in fall, You are referring to the story of the Garden of Eden, that is a similitude, the whole creation story (ies) are not for the Beginning of life on this planet. Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the Beginning, and from ancient times, things which are not yet done. Creation, Flood, Sodom, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or most of Genesis are similitudes of things to come later.
God included Genesis to mainly give mankind a answer to their questions, Just to set the questions aside, as how this all started, is not that important, But if the question was not answered, those questions would keep coming up, interfering with what God was showing we needed to know.
All of Genesis are similitudes for the day of the Cross, From Sunset as the last Supper began, till Sunset as Jesus was just placed in the Sepulchre.
The day is made as 7 days in Isaiah 30:26
Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
Notice this is the day God heals, So the day of the Cross is as 7 days, also Genesis 2:4 shows God created the Heavens and the Earth in a DAY:
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
God takes the day and makes it as 3 pictures, or three different ways of looking at the day. First as 4 6-hour periods, seen as 4 beasts with 6-wings, Second as 2 12-hour periods seen as 2 witnesses, Third as 1 24-hour period seen as 24 Elders. All the Sevens in the Book of Revelation is seeing the day of the Cross as these three pictures, So often a third of this, or of that is seen.
The first picture, The people are as waters, as a river divided into four heads (Garden of Eden) So the waves roaring is the people against Jesus. Jesus as the Ark, the Waters or people raise up the Ark, we are with Jesus in the Ark. Notice in the Story (ies) They have entered the Ark, The flood is upon the Earth, the 40 days and Nights of rain ( THEN IN THE SELFSAME DAY) they start the story again, loading the Animals, But this time “THE LORD SHUTS THEM IN” Because the Second picture for the day of the Cross is seeing Jesus in hell, or a pit where in is no water.
The Lamb in Revelation has seven eyes. Or the seven time periods. “Let tears run down like a river” is for the day of the Cross as all prophecies are, So when God wipes away all the tears from their eyes, That ends the first picture, Behold God makes all things new, or now the Second picture starts.
The fourth river is the River Euphrates. Seen dried up in Revelation, that is the Fourth 6-hour period, or making way for the second picture as a pit where in is no water. First picture the people as waters, Second the seed of Abraham seen as the Sand, So the Sand is set as a bound that the waters go no farther.
Sunset to Midnight, Let there be Light, I am the True Vine, I am the Good Shepherd, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. In My Father’s house are many mansions, as Jesus pours out the Light.
Midnight to sunrise. People as waters, Jesus as the Firmament, Judas with 144 (seen as a wall in Revelation 21:17) are the waters ABOVE the Firmament, Sinners as waters under the Firmament, Disciples flee as Islands. The Islands which wait for His Word.
Third day, Sunrise to noon, People as waters gathered together, all in Christ “With His stripes we are healed.”
Fourth day, Noon to Sunset, this is also the MIDST of the Week when He ends the Daily Sacrifice by offering Himself. God makes two great lights, Sun seen as the Throne in Psalms 89:36 turned to Darkness as Jesus dies and they think that is the end, Moon seen as the establishment of the Throne in Psalms 89:37 turned to blood as the Blood of Christ establishes the Throne.
Fourth angel sounds in Revelation a third of the Sun, and a third of the Moon is smitten, or one of the three pictures is complete.
Fourth seal is the Pale Horse, Death followed by hell as Jesus died and descended into hell.
Jeremiah 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
The 144 are multiplied by 1,000 in Deuteronomy, they are the 144,000 of Revelation Chapter 14. They are virgins, seen by Jeremiah as men travailing with Child, the Body of Christ born the day of the Cross, This is where the Beginning belongs, Created in God’s Image, or created in the Body of Christ.
Psalms 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Jesus took away sin, So Now it can be Immanuel or GOD WITH US.
The 144 have added the Cubit or reached angel status, they are the angels given charge over Jesus, They gather all things which offend. Jesus has all sin.
Sunset to Midnight is Old Heaven, Midnight to Sunrise is old earth, Heaven and earth flee from His Face, seen as the Face of a man on the third beast with 6-wings which is new Earth from sunrise to noon, New Heaven is noon to sunset.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
All prophecies are for the day of the Cross, Mary and Bethlehem are similitudes, the day of the Cross is when the Virgin Birth is fulfilled. Because Heaven and earth also had to pass away and Old Heaven and earth did, Now He declares the End from the Beginning, Now John 1:1 applies. Old Earth had no beginning so forget the 6,000 years, The New World which started the day of the Cross has no end.
The day of the Cross had to be taken out of time, this breaks the Covenant with the Levites or ends the Priesthood, The real temple which was Destroyed, then in three days or made Truth in three pictures of the Same day, Another is raised, The Body of Christ.
Angels are a measure of a man. Adding the Cubit. Something the Churches never looked for, nor have doctrine for, although it was said if you can not do this, Why take thought for the rest.
Luke 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
Revelation 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
This is the wall of men around Jesus on the Mount of Olives, They have the Cubit added, they are the angels given charge over Jesus. They are the 144,000. As Ezekiel said in that day, every wall would fall to the Ground, When Jesus said “I am He.” they all went backwards and fell to the ground.
Because so much is wrong in what the Churches have for Doctrine, This takes a lot, and some is very offensive. But that is how God kept it a secret for so long, Israel will be seeing the Truth of Scripture and that Jesus is the Messiah in a few more years.
Joshua 3:3 And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it.
4 Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way heretofore.
They saw the ARK and they saw the Levites or Priests bearing it up on a Cross at Golgotha in 29 A.D. this is a similitude for stay back 2,000 cubits or years till 2029 A.D. then follow. This is a future similitude for what happened the day of the Cross, They will AGAIN look on Him whom they have pierced, This time in Scripture, and this time see the Truth of the Matter.
Daniel sees the MAN Gabriel at the BEGINNING (time of Jesus’ death, saying “It is Finished.” or declaring the end from the Beginning begin to fly swiftly. Jesus just died and commended His spirit to God. That is what Daniel saw. The Spirit of Christ being commended to God. Or Gabriel begin to fly swiftly.
This earth had to be prepared for mankind, Without the Coal and oil deposits we would not have survived very long. They took a long time to come into existence, And NO, God did not just say “Let there be Coal.”
Coal and Oil are a renewable resource on earth, It just takes an Ice Age and a few million years to get some more.
The Devil and Satan are such mixed up concepts and so hard to accept who they really are, it is like Satan coming and taking away all you have, When you see the truth of Satan, You drop all you have believed and run, and are left with nothing.
Satan is an offence unto God, Upon Whom did God place all iniquity? The Devil has great wrath, When Jesus took sin, was Great wrath one of them? Did Jesus know He had but a short time when He took sins at Midnight?
The Lord devours like a Lion in Hosea 13:8, Roaring in Psalms 22:1, In Adversity in Psalms 35:15.
Satan desire to sift Peter as wheat, that is God’s word in Amos 9:9.
Satan moved God to test Job, God’s own words of “I try the hearts and reigns of men.” means Job gets tested cause or not.
Daniel is told that only Michael help in His coming (Jesus came to Daniel when He was dead the day of the Cross)
Michael is Judas Iscariot. Who was doing as God directed him to do.
The Battle is in the Garden, their place was not found in Heaven anymore because Old Heaven ended at Midnight. So they see the Holy City coming down from God out of Heaven or the 144 around Jesus coming down from the Mount of Olives. And they city is measured.
Christ is the SOUL we are created in, People seen as waters.
Psalms 69:1 Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul.
God had always planned on all mankind saved, Jesus made an end of sin and brought in everlasting righteousness as Daniel 9:24 shows, all Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled, They make the Spirit of Truth (had to be doubled twice to be establishes as Truth by God) which leads us into all truths. One prophecy was the Disciples blinded as in sleep from seeing the truth of the day of the Cross (Isaiah 29:10/12) Jesus coming to them in the Garden and telling them to sleep on, Take your rest, arise let us be going.
The Nature of the planet, It had to settle down, Had to become more gentle. Many eruptions were giant compared to what we have now. Many asteroids had to be allowed to be attracted by the planets. That is one reason for larger planets farther out from the Sun, They attract a lot of things, like Jupiter took out the Comet not too long ago. Jupiter has a huge gravitational force. Most of the Big asteroids are on the outer edge of our solar system.
So to get to us, they need to get past those outer planets first. But now, we might be able to handle them ourselves, But before, we could not.
Mankind needed to get a little civil, Be able to understand, before God could start to show Himself and have mankind retain it, Like written languages.
Micatala.
God might not have set that up, He might have come to them when enslaved, Either way, a lot of people were there to see a God that they have never known before. A real God one who fought for His people. But like Babylon, People gathered from most of the known world then, and in those 70 years, God shows Himself, and a lot of people learn of the real God, all those who died, Were in hell, or a place of sleep till Jesus died for sin, then as a holding place for the third day. Not a place or real fire or torment.
Jesus told the Disciples He was NOT COMING BACK physically. But that God and He would make their abode in us, that the Kingdom was in us, That the Kingdom does not come with observation.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
When you see Matthew in Heaven, You might want to ask Him about those slain Children. It is for the Children of Israel the day of the Cross, “No man cometh unto the Father but by Me.” resulted in the Children being NO MORE. As Israel was blinded by God from seeing Jesus was the Messiah and could therefore not come, God voided Christ’s covenant in Psalms 89:39 and concluded all mankind in unbelief. Look what that prophecy really says:
Jeremiah 31:15 Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
16 Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
Does not really fit children slain in Bethlehem, These come again.
Ken
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Fisherking
Post #5
1) Did God create man sinful? Or put another way, was there a "Fall"? If there wasn't, then God created us with sin inherent in us, did He not? If He did; why?
According to scripture, God created man with the capability to choose, to sin or not to sin.(thou shall, thou shalt not) at a specific moment in time:micatala wrote:In my view, as man evolved, he eventually got to a point (or at least a transition period) where he developed self-awareness or consciousness, and perhaps at some later time, a conception of good and evil and a conception of God. In my view, sin did not come into existence until at least this time.
"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."Gen 2:16
Sin entering into the world by this one man would be considered the "fall"."Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin "Romans 5:12
According to scripture, man was distiguished from other species the very day man was created (6th day), capable of understanding and communicating the spoken word:micatala wrote:The "fall" as described in Genesis I think is an allegory for this process where we became distinguished from other species in these particular ways.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.Gen 1:27
2) Genesis is obviously viewed as non-literal. What do you make of the Genesis account then? Is it allogorical? If yes, what does it allude to? If no, then why is it there at all?
micatala wrote:Yes, I view Genesis as allegorical. I think it was probably even originally intended as such. The creation story is meant to indicate that God is the ultimate source of all that is. The story of the fall is meant as an allegory of how we came to have moral and religious sensibilities.
What is there scripturally that would indicate the book of Genesis is intended to be allegorical? In most cases it appears to have nothing to do with scripture and everything to do with current scientific theory and beliefs.
3) I'm assuming the Noachian flood is viewed as either non-literal or non-existent? Why did God include it in the Bible?
According to scripture, the best explaination is that the Noachian flood was a literal, historical event recorded in the book of Genesis.micatala wrote:There are several possible explanations for why this story is in the Bible. I think it is possible that it was inspired by a significant, albeit regional or local, flood. This flood event may have inspired the author to create an explanation for why it occurred.
Local floods are a rather common occurances, but God said,
God has kept his covenant and has not flooded the whole earth as in the days of Noah. The author was giving a factual, historical account of how and why it occured."And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth". Gen 9:11
micatala wrote:Part of the message of the story is to indicate that man is capable of rejecting morality and God and that God does not like this.
I agree.
Post #6
Only according to a literal reading of scripture. I don't accept the literal interpretation of Genesis.Fisherking wrote:1) Did God create man sinful? Or put another way, was there a "Fall"? If there wasn't, then God created us with sin inherent in us, did He not? If He did; why?
According to scripture, God created man with the capability to choose, to sin or not to sin.(thou shall, thou shalt not) at a specific moment in time:micatala wrote:In my view, as man evolved, he eventually got to a point (or at least a transition period) where he developed self-awareness or consciousness, and perhaps at some later time, a conception of good and evil and a conception of God. In my view, sin did not come into existence until at least this time.
I would accept this is the common understanding of "the fall.""And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."Gen 2:16Sin entering into the world by this one man would be considered the "fall"."Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin "Romans 5:12
Fisherking wrote:According to scripture, man was distiguished from other species the very day man was created (6th day), capable of understanding and communicating the spoken word:micatala wrote:The "fall" as described in Genesis I think is an allegory for this process where we became distinguished from other species in these particular ways.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.Gen 1:27
Again, this assumes a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2. I don't follow this interpretation. The point for me is that man became different than other animals. How this happened is a different matter. At the time it was written, the author had no knowledge of earth's history and so created an account which fit into his world view. We now have ample evidence to conclude that creation did not occur literally as described in 6 days in Genesis. Life has a long history on earth, and humans have only been around for a tiny fraction of that history.
Fisherking wrote:2) Genesis is obviously viewed as non-literal. What do you make of the Genesis account then? Is it allogorical? If yes, what does it allude to? If no, then why is it there at all?micatala wrote:Yes, I view Genesis as allegorical. I think it was probably even originally intended as such. The creation story is meant to indicate that God is the ultimate source of all that is. The story of the fall is meant as an allegory of how we came to have moral and religious sensibilities.
What is there scripturally that would indicate the book of Genesis is intended to be allegorical? In most cases it appears to have nothing to do with scripture and everything to do with current scientific theory and beliefs.
I would accept that without the scientific knowledge we have today, we would at least view a 'literal creation account' as more plausible than we do now. So what. This is true for lots of areas of knowledge as the apply to scripture.
No one who based their knowledge of the solar system solely on the Bible would ever come to any other conclusion than the sun and the stars and planets revolve around a fixed earth. In fact, there is only the slightest vague and ambiguous hints that the earth might be anything other than flat. We long ago reinterpreted scripture regarding these points because of the scientific evidence we have. In fact, we made these reinterpretations based on far, far less evidence than we have now for the evolution of life and the age of the earth. Those of us who have accomodated their biblical interpretations of the bible to this new evidence are following a long and sound tradition of biblical interpretation. I don't see that we have anything to apologize for.
In addition, consider the language used in Genesis. The names used (adam and eve) have allegorical meaning. We have a talking snake. We do not have any indication of an eyewitness observing the events being narrated. We have two distinct creation accounts. The Genesis passages in these early chapters read differently even than the later chapters of Genesis, and certainly differently than the historical books.
For a rebuttal of the idea of a global flood on theological grounds, see Hugh Ross Reasons to Believe site. Ross makes the point that the language used in these passages more appropriately refer only to the region known to be inhabited by the descendants of Abraham. THere was no conception of the earth as a global. There was also no precedent in scripture for God to mete out judgment or punishment beyond those within the nations or areas that had engaged in sin or rejection of God. Thus, to assume North America or Africa were flooded would not make sense theologically speaking.Fisherking wrote:3) I'm assuming the Noachian flood is viewed as either non-literal or non-existent? Why did God include it in the Bible?According to scripture, the best explaination is that the Noachian flood was a literal, historical event recorded in the book of Genesis.micatala wrote:There are several possible explanations for why this story is in the Bible. I think it is possible that it was inspired by a significant, albeit regional or local, flood. This flood event may have inspired the author to create an explanation for why it occurred.
Local floods are a rather common occurances, but God said,
God has kept his covenant and has not flooded the whole earth as in the days of Noah. The author was giving a factual, historical account of how and why it occured."And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth". Gen 9:11
Very good.Fisherking wrote:micatala wrote:Part of the message of the story is to indicate that man is capable of rejecting morality and God and that God does not like this.
I agree.
It seems to me that one can receive and understand biblical teaching or revelation without necessarily holding to literal interpretations. Jesus often used 'literal language' that was meant to be taken metaphorically. Consider his discussion of his flesh as real food and his blood as real drink in John chapter six. The crowd took this 'literal language' literally, as they though he intended it. Only his disciples were clued in as to the 'real', albeit metaphorical, meaning.
" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn
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ken1burton
- Apprentice
- Posts: 228
- Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:33 pm
Post #8
Anu. Part of seeking God with all your heart is turning on your brain, Which it seems your friend did not even think to do.
God uses similitudes, And at one time people might think all the stars could fall to the Earth. Now we know one rear star and it is good-by for us all.
Stars are for signs, The Star wormwood falls to the Earth when the Third Angel in Revelation sounds. All the threes in Revelation is the day of the Cross from sunrise to noon. Jesus is made all things cursed, He is as the Earth also. So the Earth destroyed by fire (God’s word like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29) of Jesus dies the day of the Cross.
Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Jesus is the Living Waters, The day is seen in Revelation as three pictures, or one third at a time:
Amos 5:7 Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth,
Now the Fourth time is Noon to Sunset, The day of the Cross made as a week by Isaiah 30:26 so it is the Midst of the Week. Jesus ends the daily Sacrifice in the Midst of the Week. Fourth day in Genesis, God makes two great lights, Sun seen as the Throne in Psalms 89:36. Turned to Darkness as Jesus dies and they think that is the end.
Moon seen as the Establishment of the Throne in Psalms 89:37. Turned to blood as the Blood of Christ establishes the Throne. So when the Fourth angel sounds, a third of the fourth 6-hour period (4 beasts with 6-wings) is finished:
Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
All the stars are all the prophecies being fulfilled, Jesus is as the Earth, all the Prophecies, every jot and tittle fall unto Christ as they are all fulfilled.
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Jesus just has to drink of the fruit of the Vine new with them in the Father’s Kingdom, which has come, the VINEgar will do nicely, and allow Himself to die, He commends His spirit to God, So the Fourth beast with 6-wings is as a flying Eagle.
Do you or your friend really want to know that is truth? Not a way to get Church members to want anything to do with you. When God said you would be hated by all men from My Name’s sake, He meant believers also.
After Israel comes to see Jesus is the Messiah in 2029 A.D. Christianity will fade away. That is Peter, the Little Horn in Daniel Chapter 7. Time, times and the Dividing or HALF a time ends, Israel is the Woman in Revelation Chapter 12 kept from seeing the Serpent’s Face.
Seek MY NAME, SEEK MY FACE.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joshua 3:3 And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it.
4 Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way heretofore.
A similitude to stay back 2,000 years from seeing Jesus who is the Ark, and the Levites bearing Him up at Golgotha in 29 A.D. So in 2029 A.D. They will look on Him that they have pierced, This time, seeing Him Scripturally as the Messiah, Believe it, Get it all right and in order. And most of mankind will follow them. Just a few holdouts (Ezekiel 47:8 starts the people coming, The sea being healed is Israel seeing Jesus is the Messiah)
Read Ezekiel good, Prepare for BILLIONS of Converts. No physical second coming of Jesus, Never was suppose to be one (John 14:19)
Ken
God uses similitudes, And at one time people might think all the stars could fall to the Earth. Now we know one rear star and it is good-by for us all.
Stars are for signs, The Star wormwood falls to the Earth when the Third Angel in Revelation sounds. All the threes in Revelation is the day of the Cross from sunrise to noon. Jesus is made all things cursed, He is as the Earth also. So the Earth destroyed by fire (God’s word like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29) of Jesus dies the day of the Cross.
Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Jesus is the Living Waters, The day is seen in Revelation as three pictures, or one third at a time:
Amos 5:7 Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth,
Now the Fourth time is Noon to Sunset, The day of the Cross made as a week by Isaiah 30:26 so it is the Midst of the Week. Jesus ends the daily Sacrifice in the Midst of the Week. Fourth day in Genesis, God makes two great lights, Sun seen as the Throne in Psalms 89:36. Turned to Darkness as Jesus dies and they think that is the end.
Moon seen as the Establishment of the Throne in Psalms 89:37. Turned to blood as the Blood of Christ establishes the Throne. So when the Fourth angel sounds, a third of the fourth 6-hour period (4 beasts with 6-wings) is finished:
Revelation 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
All the stars are all the prophecies being fulfilled, Jesus is as the Earth, all the Prophecies, every jot and tittle fall unto Christ as they are all fulfilled.
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Jesus just has to drink of the fruit of the Vine new with them in the Father’s Kingdom, which has come, the VINEgar will do nicely, and allow Himself to die, He commends His spirit to God, So the Fourth beast with 6-wings is as a flying Eagle.
Do you or your friend really want to know that is truth? Not a way to get Church members to want anything to do with you. When God said you would be hated by all men from My Name’s sake, He meant believers also.
After Israel comes to see Jesus is the Messiah in 2029 A.D. Christianity will fade away. That is Peter, the Little Horn in Daniel Chapter 7. Time, times and the Dividing or HALF a time ends, Israel is the Woman in Revelation Chapter 12 kept from seeing the Serpent’s Face.
Seek MY NAME, SEEK MY FACE.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joshua 3:3 And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it.
4 Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way heretofore.
A similitude to stay back 2,000 years from seeing Jesus who is the Ark, and the Levites bearing Him up at Golgotha in 29 A.D. So in 2029 A.D. They will look on Him that they have pierced, This time, seeing Him Scripturally as the Messiah, Believe it, Get it all right and in order. And most of mankind will follow them. Just a few holdouts (Ezekiel 47:8 starts the people coming, The sea being healed is Israel seeing Jesus is the Messiah)
Read Ezekiel good, Prepare for BILLIONS of Converts. No physical second coming of Jesus, Never was suppose to be one (John 14:19)
Ken
Post #9
After I turned on my brain and reading your and micatala's posts, I figure it would be easier for me to accept that the bible is one big similitude. Or bluntly - a fictional epic.ken1burton wrote:Anu. Part of seeking God with all your heart is turning on your brain, Which it seems your friend did not even think to do.
God uses similitudes
Just can't justify categorizing only selected events as similitudes. Is it because those events are haunting you that they are unbelievable, per se? Good luck on convincing the hard-core believers that those are not real.
And that's the gist of my original question. Who decide what whether the events and characters are real or not?
Post #10
Well, for a long time the Bible was certainly viewed as entirely literal.anu wrote:After I turned on my brain and reading your and micatala's posts, I figure it would be easier for me to accept that the bible is one big similitude. Or bluntly - a fictional epic.ken1burton wrote:Anu. Part of seeking God with all your heart is turning on your brain, Which it seems your friend did not even think to do.
God uses similitudes
Just can't justify categorizing only selected events as similitudes. Is it because those events are haunting you that they are unbelievable, per se? Good luck on convincing the hard-core believers that those are not real.
And that's the gist of my original question. Who decide what whether the events and characters are real or not?
The idea of modernism and teaching that parts of the Bible aren't leteral is a pretty recent custom. And as science and undersatnding increase, there seems to be a positive correlation in the amount of the bible that Christians start to consider figurative instead of literal
Granted, the fundamntalist revival of the early 1900's stirred up the Christian faith, but their reign is, currently, on the downfall.
