Is the Bible anti-evolution?

[harvey1]

Perhaps the most unquestioned assumptions assertions by many fundamentalist Christians is that the Bible is anti-evolution. This assumption is wrong. The Bible clearly asserts evolution with this Genesis 1 scripture:

Genesis 1:11

"Then God said, 'Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is it itself, on the earth'; and it was so"

Genesis 3:17

"Then to Adam [God] said, 'Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it'..."

Now, you can't have it two ways. Either God commanded the earth, and the earth did as it was told and created life in an earthly manner (naturally), or God's commands are not real commands and therefore Adam is not responsible for breaking them.

[BeHereNow]

The Bible clearly asserts evolution with this Genesis 1 scripture:

Genesis 1:11

"Then God said, 'Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is it itself, on the earth'; and it was so"

I don’t see it. I’m an evolutionist (Theistic Evolution), but I don’t see that you’ve shown a hint of evolution with your selection. If anything, this passage reminds me of a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

[Midwestguy]

It is my understanding the story in Genesis 1 is intended to show that everything in the known universe owes it existence to the one God. HOW God created things is irrelevant compared to acknowledging that God did it. The story is not meant to be taken literally.

That being my understanding, where am I wrong compared to the issue being discussed here?

[BeHereNow]

I wasn't saying you are "wrong". You expressed a belief and used a passage of scripture to support that belief. I indicated I did not see the support from the scripture you quoted.

I happen to agree with you that the bible is meant to tell us who, but not how.

[BeHereNow]

Okay. So now I'm working on a relply to midwestguy.
Belay that last.

[BeHereNow]

We have two BRAND NEW NEWBIES here, and one beginner. Lets see if we can get back on track.
Midwestguy, you will find all types of beliefs here. Many accept the Bible literally, and think you should too. Their support for this will come from the New Testament. You may also have an athiest join the conversation.
If I undersand your interest, your concerns are covered in other posts.
I suggest you take some time to read more threads.
But I'm willing to continue if you ask some specific questions.

[harvey1]

I don’t see it. I’m an evolutionist (Theistic Evolution), but I don’t see that you’ve shown a hint of evolution with your selection. If anything, this passage reminds me of a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

The scripture shows that the role of creating life was handed over to the earth. That is, the creation of life is an earthly process (natural process). Of course, there are earthly processes that create life besides evolution (e.g., fertilization, parthenogenesis, etc), but in terms of the creation of new species, the only natural process that creates new species is evolutionary in nature.

As to the process of creation, to get a biblical description you have to turn to the words of Jesus. Our Lord was speaking about spiritual creation, but the words are apt to understand natural selection and its role in the physical creation:

"A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop--a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matt.13:3-9)

In other words, God's word is what brings creation to the natural world (II Peter 3:5). However, because of the evil one who instantiates a world of decay, the creation process is one in which natural selective pressures exist, causing species to die. A multitude of natural elements exist that create these selective pressures, and so it is that many environments are not suitable for life (or they become unsuitable such as 'when the sun came up'). However, the species that evolve with desirable traits are able to withstand the new environments, and they produce a 'crop' (i.e., many siblings), and are able to thrive with the new adaptations.

Jesus followed up his teachings on the natural selection process with a teaching of evolutionary spatial and temporal scales:

"The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches." (Matt. 13:31-32)

Or, translating this in terms of the natural kingdom of God (i.e., not only the spiritual kingdom of God): the natural creation process begins with the smallest seed possible. In case of the universe, it begins with the smallest point of mass/energy and expands outward (e.g., "this is what God the LORD says- he who created the heavens and stretched them out", Isaiah 42:5). In case of the creation of life it begins with the smallest seeds of life (e.g., DNA, etc). Timescales are also hinted at in this text. Most of the major changes happen early - before the changes are visible. By the time the changes are visible, the seed is already sprouting. In addition, the length of time involved after maturing are large timescales as the reference to a tree aptly demonstrates. Such is the case with the age of the universe, and even age of the biological world. It is like a 'tree' having many generations and accommodating much life even though it began so insignificantly.

And, finally, Jesus went further and talked about how God's word begins in small increments and influences the whole creation:

"The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amount of flour until it worked all through the dough." (Matt. 13:33)

Translating... God's involvement with the creation of the world is insignificant compared to the vast amount of naturalism seen. However, the little yeast that God adds to the dough is enough to evolve the whole the flour into a dough (i.e., something that suits God's purpose).

-----------------------------------

I wish Christians would take more time to reflect on Jesus' words, and realize that the Christian text is, of course, talking about the spiritual creation, but it is also talking about the physical creation. If only all Christians embraced evolution as they ought.

[BeHereNow]

Very interesting. You not only use scripture to allow evolution, you actually use it to attempt to prove evolution.

As to the process of creation, to get a biblical description you have to turn to the words of Jesus. Our Lord was speaking about spiritual creation, but the words are apt to understand natural selection and its role in the physical creation:

"A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed . . . He who has ears, let him hear." (Matt.13:3-9)

Here you attempt to use a parable (which is always open to discussion) which you say is about spiritual creation to show a parallel with an aspect of evolution known as natural selection. Although Genesis is thought of as the creation book, you tell us that we have to turn to the New Testament to learn about the process (evolution) of creation. One would think that Genesis would hold all that we need to know about creation, and that Jesus might just fine tune the details. You flipped it the other direction. Since Jesus came to fulfill the scripture spiritually, we could also say he came to fulfill it materially as well. A weak point many will disagree with.
I still come to the point where I say if you have shown your point, then this is supporting evidence to reinforce. But if you haven’t convinced me to begin with, this just doesn’t work. A parable on a parable is too far removed.
Let’s keep reading.

In other words, God's word is what brings creation to the natural world (II Peter 3:5). However, because of the evil . . . and are able to thrive with the new adaptations.

II Peter 3:5 does tell me that God is the cause of creation, but again you stretch what is there to envelope an evolution doctrine. If you have made your case, then this could be used to support it. To me this has not established your case. I need something more convincing, then I will review this to see if it strengthens your position.

Again with Matthew 13:31-32 you take a spiritual teaching and draw a parallel with evolution, but you are doing the drawing (“translating this in terms of the natural. . .”).
And another similar example with the yeast.

I start out with the assumption the Bible tells us who, but not how. So I’m already halfway to your side. I try to let you convince me it also says how, but you don’t get me there.
I have no doubt your belief in the Bible does not detract from your belief in evolution. You have convinced me of that.
You have not addressed any of the passages your detractors are sure to use to show that the universe is young and creation was instantaneous (evolution is not possible). I suppose we could start out with the assumption the universe is old, but if you’re going to butt heads with a creationist you need to start at the beginning.
You have done a good job of showing why you believe what you do, but there is still more faith than convincing argument. I do not know how many of the other creation/evolution threads you have read, but you should read all of them. You need to find what you consider to be the flaws in their logic.
I'm afraid the creationists may not even respond to your post (argument too weak). You may do better by jumping into other posts after you've done your homework.

[harvey1]

Here you attempt to use a parable (which is always open to discussion) which you say is about spiritual creation to show a parallel with an aspect of evolution known as natural selection. Although Genesis is thought of as the creation book, you tell us that we have to turn to the New Testament to learn about the process (evolution) of creation. One would think that Genesis would hold all that we need to know about creation, and that Jesus might just fine tune the details. You flipped it the other direction. Since Jesus came to fulfill the scripture spiritually, we could also say he came to fulfill it materially as well. A weak point many will disagree with. I still come to the point where I say if you have shown your point, then this is supporting evidence to reinforce. But if you haven’t convinced me to begin with, this just doesn’t work. A parable on a parable is too far removed. Let’s keep reading.

Jesus interpreted the parable as referring to spiritual creation. In addition, there is ample examples of spiritual being a type of the physical (just read Paul: two Jews (physical & spiritual), two bodies (physical & spiritual), two natures (physical & spiritual), etc. It's not uncommon to strike similarities between the two, so it is with very strong foundations that I can say that the physical creation models the spiritual creation. If God uses natural selection for his spiritual creation, then it is logical to assume that God uses natural selection for his physical creation.

[BeHereNow]

You are going to have to explain to me what you mean by spiritual creation.
I don’t believe spirit has been created. I believe it has co-existed with God From the Beginning.
I do not see the Matthew 13:3 parable as being about creation. I see it as being about nourishing what already exists. The seeds are Jesus’ words, his teachings. Sometimes his teachings just don’t get through to us, sometime they do. Sometimes they get through, but we ignore them, and they wither. Sometimes they reach us and we live them.
I believe we have a spitirual conciouness before we ever hear the first message of Jesus.