Avoiding Purgatory

[myth-one.com]

Purgatory is a place or condition in which the souls of the just are purified after death and before they can enter heaven. They may be purified of the guilt of their venial sins, as in this life, by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace. This sorrow does not, however, affect the punishment for sins, because in the next world there is no longer any possibility of merit. The souls are certainly purified by atoning for the temporal punishments due to sin by their willing acceptance of suffering imposed by God. The sufferings in purgatory are not the same for all, but proportioned to each person's degree of sinfulness. (Modern Catholic Dictionary)

The wages of sin is death, all mankind sinned, and all are headed for the second death. God sends His Son to the Earth, Jesus lives a sinless life, and does not have to die. Therefore, He can sacrifice His life to pay the penalty for our sins. But if Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, why must the "souls of the just" atone for the temporal punishments due to sin by suffering more in purgatory?

That is, if Jesus paid our penalty, must we suffer more? There is no need for purgatory if Jesus truly paid our penalty for sinning! The sins of believers are forgiven. We enter the Kingdom of God as spotless, sinless children of God.

Question: If Catholics believe Jesus died for their sins, how can they also believe they must suffer more for those same sins? Did Jesus' sacrifice not quite pay the penalty for Catholics?

[Christianathlete]

I always questioned this. I don't believe in Purgatory and I just don't understand where it comes from. But although my family is catholic (though I attend a Baptist Church and the rest of my family doesn't attend church regularly) I disagree with many Catholic beliefs. For example Purgatory or praying to Mary and other saints. What are you guys' thoughts?

[myth-one.com]

I disagree with many Catholic beliefs. For example Purgatory or praying to Mary and other saints. What are you guys' thoughts?

Purgatory is a place or condition in which the souls of the just are purified after death and before they can enter heaven. They may be purified of the guilt of their venial sins, as in this life, by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace. This sorrow does not, however, affect the punishment for sins, because in the next world there is no longer any possibility of merit. The souls are certainly purified by atoning for the temporal punishments due to sin by their willing acceptance of suffering imposed by God. The sufferings in purgatory are not the same for all, but proportioned to each person's degree of sinfulness.

Notice that purgatory is for the "just" or Christians. But if Jesus died for the sins of Christians, why must our we undergo additional suffering for our sins? The penalty for our sins has already been paid. The implication is that Jesus' sacrifice was insufficient!

Regarding prayer, Jesus stated:

If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (John 14:14)

Why pray to Mary or the Saints? Be direct!

[Christianathlete]

Those are my feelings exactly. Why add in a middle man?

[ST_JB]

Notice that purgatory is for the "just" or Christians. But if Jesus died for the sins of Christians, why must our we undergo additional suffering for our sins? The penalty for our sins has already been paid. The implication is that Jesus' sacrifice was insufficient!

Purgatory is a place or condition in which the souls of the just are purified after death and before they can enter heaven. They may be purified of the guilt of their venial sins, as in this life, by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace. This sorrow does not, however, affect the punishment for sins, because in the next world there is no longer any possibility of merit. The souls are certainly purified by atoning for the temporal punishments due to sin by their willing acceptance of suffering imposed by God. The sufferings in purgatory are not the same for all, but proportioned to each person's degree of sinfulness. (Modern Catholic Dictionary)

The wages of sin is death, all mankind sinned, and all are headed for the second death. God sends His Son to the Earth, Jesus lives a sinless life, and does not have to die. Therefore, He can sacrifice His life to pay the penalty for our sins. But if Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, why must the "souls of the just" atone for the temporal punishments due to sin by suffering more in purgatory?

That is, if Jesus paid our penalty, must we suffer more? There is no need for purgatory if Jesus truly paid our penalty for sinning! The sins of believers are forgiven. We enter the Kingdom of God as spotless, sinless children of God.

Question: If Catholics believe Jesus died for their sins, how can they also believe they must suffer more for those same sins? Did Jesus' sacrifice not quite pay the penalty for Catholics?

This is a good question.

To understand Purgatory, one must have knowledge on the Nature of Sin and its effect to the souls. In addition, we also must understand the Nature of Suffering and its effects to our souls. Punishment is different from Suffering. Sin leaves a permanent mark to our souls that only Jesus can wash away. It is true that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross purchased us from sin. But from which sin???

Salvation happened some 2000 years ago. The Act of Salvation was done once only. That means it is not everyday that Jesus died for our sins. My question from which sin are we saved by Jesus on the cross???

During the fall of man, sin entered into the world. They disobeyed the commandment given to them by God to not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. By their disobedience, sin entered into the world and death came to man.

What does 'Death' means?

Death means the separation of man from God.

When Jesus came and saffered on the cross, His death saved us from sin (death) and brought us back to God, again. That means Jesus opened the heaven for us to enter again into the kingdom of God.

The salvation offered by Jesus on the cross does not covers the sin we committed everyday. I mean, if we failed to confess this sin and we die, then it will leave a mark to our soul. Thus, making us unworthy to face God in HIS Glory. For the bible tells us that no sinners can face the HOLY God.

It is in this regard that the purification is needed when we sinned before we die. Thus, purgatory is the cleansing state for all those who died with venial sin.

It is a temporary cleansing state for the soul. It is not hell nor punishment. Souls will be undergone cleansing until such time that this soul is ready to face God in his Glory.

[ST_JB]

Regarding prayer, Jesus stated:

If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (John 14:14)

Why pray to Mary or the Saints? Be direct!

We do not pray to Mary or Saints, but we ask them to pray for us and with us.

The bible tells us that the prayer of the just/right person is powerful. If Mary is so blessed by God why not ask fro prayers from her just like we ask our brothers and sisters to pray for us in times of needs and difficulties? Is there any person out there who would be comparable to Mary? i don't think so. She alone bore the SON of the Most High. Was Chosen and was Blessed by God.

... and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much James 5:16

[myth-one.com]

Regarding prayer, Jesus stated:

If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (John 14:14)

Why pray to Mary or the Saints? Be direct!

We do not pray to Mary or Saints, but we ask them to pray for us and with us.

But Mary and the Saints are dead. How can they pray for anyone, since they know absolutely nothing according to the Bible:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

[Amadeus]

1 john 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

john 19:30
When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

The phrase "it is finished" is the word "tetelestai". It is a bainking term meaning PAID IN FULL.

Let's also remember that the only "scriptural evidence" for purgatory there is is in the apocrypha, rejected by early church fathers who considered it extra-biblical and useful only as a cultural reference. It is historically inaccurate, condones witchcraft and refers to almsgiving as a way to buy oneself out of purgatory. This was played up by the greedy Catholic church to rob poor people on false pretenses. They sell indulgences to this day.

[Amadeus]

If christ's death did not accomplish what he set out to do, He died for nothing.
Romans 8:1-4
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [fn] he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

[Slopeshoulder]

What's always struck me as attactive and wise about Purgatory is first that it overcomes the binary heaven/hell choice inherent in sin & atonement doctrine wherein either too many or too few seem to go to heaven/hell, and for reasons that struck both the ancients and people on this very forum as unsatisfactory. Second, it overcomes the faith vs. works distinction and locates salvation more in the direction of sanctification rather than mere justification.
The catholics made stuff up, some of it nutty. But overall, it's a good thing when reason, conscience, and human desire inspire theologians to seek and discern the spirit in the service of post-biblical evolving doctrine.

Interestingly, reincarnation functions in a similiar way in the East as purgatory in the West. They are both attempts to overcome the binary choice though ongoing sanctification and locate it in ongoing soul-work after transformation/justification/awakening/second birth. And the latter is a good example of when the Bible may not be enough (a core catholic belief). As a myth, I find it powerful, and I applaud the Catholics for coming up with it. I find that belief in purgatory tends to make people sleep better and chill when they're awake a bit more. Without it, sin & atonement doctrine becomes either meaningless or ghoulish.