A civil debate forum for people of all persuasions (Atheists, Agnostics, Deists, Christians, and adherents of any religion)


Reply to topic
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:11 am
Reply
Mohammed's Wars

Like this post
Those, who claim that Islam is a religion of peace and who say Islam did not spread by sword, lets count how many wars Mohammed made during his 23 years prophecy.

1- Sifulbahr seriyyah

2- Rabigh seriyyah

3- Benu Damra /Vaddan gazve

4- Harrār seriyyah

5- Ebva gazve

6- Buvat gazve

7- Bedru’l-ula-Sefevan (I.Bedir) gazve

8- Zu’l-Useyre

9- Batn-i Nahle seriyyah

10- II.Bedir War

11- Beni Kaynuka

12- Sevīk

13- Karkaratulkudr

14- Gatafan

15- Beni Suleym

16- Feran gazve

17- Zi Emer gazve

18- Karede seriyyah

19- Uhud War

20- Hamraulesed

21- Katan seriyyah

22- Ben-i Nadir gazve

23- Bedru’l-Mev’id

24- Zatu’r-Rika

25- Dumetulcendel

26- Ahzab War

27- Gamre seriyyah

28- Beni’l-Mustalik

29- Benī Kurayza

30- Beni Lihyan

31- Zukared Gazve

32- I. Zu'l-Kassa seriyyah

33- II. Zu'l-Kassa seriyyah

34- Fezare seriyyah

35- Hudeybiye

36- Hevazin seriyyah

37- I.Murre

38- Gatafan seriyyah

39- Meyfaa seriyyah

40- Suleym seriyyah

41- Hayber

42- Fedek seriyyah

43- Vadi'l Kura gazve

44- Beni'l-Mulevvah seriyyah

45- II. Mürre seriyyah

46- Benī Amir

47- Zatusselasil

48- Sifulbahr

49- Muharib War

50- The Conquarence of Mekka

51- Gumeysa seriyyah

52- Huneyn War

53- Evtas War

54- Taif Siege

55- Mut'e War

56- Tebuk

57- Fedek

58- Akabe

59- Ezruh

60- Makna

61- Maan

62- Dumetulcendel

I don't know their English translations exactly,but:

Seriyyah: Sending small troops against enemy forces

Gazve: Religious War, Holy War

Most of these wars were in order to gain new territories, pillaging, spreading the religion; only few of them were in order to defense. That's obviously a sign that Islam spreaded by using sword. Persians and Turks were also converted to Islam similarly. After some of these wars, Mohammed executed men (for example Mohammed beheaded 600 Jew men after Hayber siege) and took children and women as slaves (for example Saffiye, one of the wifes of Mohammed, was taken as cariye (woman slave) after Hayber siege)

regards

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:23 am
Reply

Like this post
Muhammad's prophetic career is meaningfully divided into two segments: the first in Mecca, where he labored for fourteen years to make converts to Islam; and later in the city of Medina (The City of the Apostle of God), where he became a powerful political and military leader. In Mecca, we see a quasi-Biblical figure, preaching repentance and charity, harassed and rejected by those around him; later, in Medina, we see an able commander and strategist who systematically conquered and killed those who opposed him. It is the later years of Muhammad's life, from 622 AD to his death in 632, that are rarely broached in polite company. In 622, when the Prophet was better than fifty years old, he and his followers made the Hijra (emigration or flight), from Mecca to the oasis of Yathrib -- later renamed Medina -- some 200 miles to the north. Muhammad's new monotheism had angered the pagan leaders of Mecca, and the flight to Medina was precipitated by a probable attempt on Muhammad's life. Muhammad had sent emissaries to Medina to ensure his welcome. He was accepted by the Medinan tribes as the leader of the Muslims and as arbiter of inter-tribal disputes.

Shortly before Muhammad fled the hostility of Mecca, a new batch of Muslim converts pledged their loyalty to him on a hill outside Mecca called Aqaba. Ishaq here conveys in the Sira the significance of this event:

Sira, p208: When God gave permission to his Apostle to fight, the second {oath of allegiance at} Aqaba contained conditions involving war which were not in the first act of fealty. Now they {Muhammad's followers} bound themselves to war against all and sundry for God and his Apostle, while he promised them for faithful service thus the reward of paradise.

That Muhammad's nascent religion underwent a significant change at this point is plain. The scholarly Ishaq clearly intends to impress on his (Muslim) readers that, while in its early years, Islam was a relatively tolerant creed that would "endure insult and forgive the ignorant," Allah soon required Muslims "to war against all and sundry for God and his Apostle." The Islamic calendar testifies to the paramouncy of the Hijra by setting year one from the date of its occurrence. The year of the Hijra, 622 AD, is considered more significant than the year of Muhammad's birth or death or that of the first Quranic revelation because Islam is first and foremost a political-military enterprise. It was only when Muhammad left Mecca with his paramilitary band that Islam achieved its proper political-military articulation. The years of the Islamic calendar (which employs lunar months) are designated in English "AH" or "After Hijra."


The Battle of Badr was the first significant engagement fought by the Prophet. Upon establishing himself in Medina following the Hijra, Muhammad began a series of razzias (raids) on caravans of the Meccan Quraish tribe on the route to Syria.

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 287; Narrated Kab bin Malik: The Apostle had gone out to meet the caravans of Quraish, but Allah caused them (i.e. Muslims) to meet their enemy unexpectedly (with no previous intention).

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 289; Narrated Ibn Abbas: On the day of the battle of Badr, the Prophet said, "O Allah! I appeal to You (to fulfill) Your Covenant and Promise. O Allah! If Your Will is that none should worship You (then give victory to the pagans)." Then Abu Bakr took hold of him by the hand and said, "This is sufficient for you." The Prophet came out saying, "Their multitude will be put to flight and they will show their backs." (54:45)

Having returned to Medina after the battle, Muhammad admonished the resident Jewish tribe of Qaynuqa to accept Islam or face a similar fate as the Quraish (3:12-13). The Qaynuqa agreed to leave Medina if they could retain their property, which Muhammad granted. Following the exile of the Bani Qaynuqa, Muhammad turned to individuals in Medina he considered to have acted treacherously. The Prophet particularly seems to have disliked the many poets who ridiculed his new religion and his claim to prophethood -- a theme evident today in the violent reactions of Muslims to any perceived mockery of Islam. In taking action against his opponents, "the ideal man" set precedents for all time as to how Muslims should deal with detractors of their religion.

Sira, p367: Then he {Kab bin al-Ashraf} composed amatory verses of an insulting nature about the Muslim women. The Apostle said: "Who will rid me of Ibnul-Ashraf?" Muhammad bin Maslama, brother of the Bani Abdu'l-Ashhal, said, "I will deal with him for you, O Apostle of God, I will kill him." He said, "Do so if you can." "All that is incumbent upon you is that you should try" {said the Prophet to Muhammad bin Maslama}. He said, "O Apostle of God, we shall have to tell lies." He {the Prophet} answered, "Say what you like, for you are free in the matter."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 270; Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Kab bin Al-Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you like me to kill him?" He replied in the affirmative. So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to him (i.e. Kab) and said, "This person (i.e. the Prophet) has put us to task and asked us for charity." Kab replied, "By Allah, you will get tired of him." Muhammad said to him, "We have followed him, so we dislike to leave him till we see the end of his affair." Muhammad bin Maslama went on talking to him in this way till he got the chance to kill him.

A significant portion of the Sira is devoted to poetry composed by Muhammad's followers and his enemies in rhetorical duels that mirrored those in the field. There seems to have been an informal competition in aggrandizing oneself, one's tribe, and one's God while ridiculing one's adversary in eloquent and memorable ways. Kab bin Malik, one of the assassins of his brother, Kab bin al-Ashraf, composed the following:

Sira, p368: Kab bin Malik said: Of them Kab was left prostrate there (After his fall {the Jewish tribe of} al-Nadir were brought low). Sword in hand we cut him down By Muhammad's order when he sent secretly by night Kab's brother to go to Kab. He beguiled him and brought him down with guile Mahmud was trustworthy, bold.

Goto top, bottom
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:26 pm
Reply

Like this post
My dictionary of Qur’ānic Arabic root words and other Islāmic stuff has this to say about Muhammad:

“From the sayings of the Holy Prophet (saw), Qurtubī quotes the following phrase:

کفٰی لنا السیف شا

The sword is sufficient remedy for us”

Ooh, and check this out for some commentary based on ahadīth related to Muhammad not actually fighting his own battles:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BWgIpoLP-IA

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Fri May 23, 2008 5:12 am
Reply

Like this post
What is police made for??? To maintain peace in a city/town/country they say, but how far and exactly is this true??? They arrest countless people and even kill some when encountered with any deadly terrorist, but yet they claim that "it“s to maintain peace"???

Hhmmm Think .....

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:38 pm
Reply

Like this post
After 9-11 there has been various debates about Islam. Some have said that the terrorist are Islam's true spoken. The so called moderates practice taqiya. Taqiya is the deliberate lying for the faith. They say Islam is a violent religion that commands Muslims to kill non Muslim. Non Muslims have 3 choices, either they convert, pay the jizya(tax) or die. They say Muhammad was peaceful for PR reasons and once strong showed his true colors and preached violent jihad. They say all the peaceful verses were abrogated after his final victory with this verse:

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

And also this verse:

9.29. Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

This verses are chosen for a reason. When read alone it implies a command to attack until they convert. Of course there are other verses in the Koran that talks about fighting. But why do they tend to focus on this one? Its simple, the other verses tend to show the defensive nature of the jihad and also the malicious intent and behavior of the pagans. Thus never cited. Lets look at some of them:

2.190. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors

2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith

2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression

Also:

2.217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

All these verses talks about fighting, however within these verses the defensive nature of the verses and the malicious behavior of the pagans is cited. Thus those who wish to attack Islam never cite those verses. Its a deliberate attempt to hide what the Koran as saying and using selective verses to imply what they know the verses does not mean.

Lets however look at the verse that is often cited. This time we will take the verses before and after it to see what is the context this verse is talking.

9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

However in the same chapter in explains the intention behind this verse:

9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

Its important for us to understand what the Koran is saying. When the koran says if they repent and establish regular prayers and so on, its not a command to attack them till they do that. Its a command to say if they choose to one day becoming Muslims, do not despise them because of past blood. Let bygones be bygones because now there are your brethren. If he chooses to remain pagan then let him be and do not fight him unless he chooses to fight you. The verse are read wrong, since many pagans converted to Islam and some of the earlier believers had problems with individuals who they fought before or were persecuted and oppressed by them before.

The verses clearly indicate that no forced conversion was there.There are standards that the Koran established for fighting.

As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ā€˜Our Lord is God.ā€™ 22:39-40

However both Sunni Islam or Shia islam do not follow the Koranic guidance. They follow whats know as the hadiths. The hadiths are the supposed "oral" prophetic traditions they say was passed along orally across time and was collected and written down 2 to 3 centuries after the prophet. The prophet and his companions never left behind them any text except the Koran. The hadiths emerged during the reign of the Abbasid empire and was a way to establish an orthodoxy and give legitimacy to a corrupt dynasty by using the prophet's name. Everything from executing apostates, to stoning adulterers and labelling other monotheist as infidels have their support not in the koran, but in these so called hadiths. So hadiths have the same place in sectarian Islam as do the Talmud in Judaism. The Koran condemned the Talmud and Jesus in the Gospel of Mark 7 also condemned the Talmud. The Koran only recognizes the Torah and the Gospel. However like Islam, both these religions have abandoned these scriptues for either a supposed "oral" tradition that emerged centuries later or a supposed "holy ghost" who was to interpret the Gospel in ways not supported by the Gospel.

Koran is peace.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Display posts from previous:   


Jump to:  
Facebook
Tweet

 




On The Web | Ecodia | Hymn Lyrics Apps
Facebook | Twitter

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.   Produced by Ecodia.

Igloo   |  Lo-Fi Version