Is Islam A Front For Hatred?

[JoeyKnothead]

Is Islam just a front for hate?

I have seen, as with many theists, posts which quote mine the Koran, and I thought I would ask about the following quotes.

The question for this debate, Is Islam really just another front for religious hatred, If not, why not?

I submit the following to support my position that it is a hate based, intollerant religion:

Qur'an:9:5
"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an:9:29
"Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Ishaq:325
"Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."

Qur'an:8:39
"Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39
"So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Ishaq:324
"He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"

Ishaq:587
"Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Qur'an:8:65
"O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: 'Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.'"

Qur'an:9:123
"Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."

Tabari IX:69
"Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us."

Qur'an:47:4
"When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

[JoeyKnothead]

I calls 'em as I sees 'em

[Goat]

I calls 'em as I sees 'em

So do I, and the way I see it you are using hate tactics, rather than valid arguments

[Bigmo]

I will not comment on hadiths, but I will tackle the verses he quotes. He seems to quote verses that talk about fighting, but never why fight and when. Maybe its because for someone coming from a Christian background where the prophet being persecuted is seen as a victorious event he may not understand why the prophet of Islam was engaged in battles.

First he quotes this:

The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, merciful. 5:33-34

Yet the verses before it and after it says this:

5.32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

He then quotes this:

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 9:5

Yet he fails to quote the verses before and after it, typical.

9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.

8. How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.

He then quotes this verse

Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred stedfast they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. 8:65

Yet a few verses before it the Koran says:

61. But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

He then quotes this:

Men take authority over women... As for those who are disobedient, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. 4:34

Actually the verses read like this:

34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

35. If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

This is a Sunni translation.

The verse is wrongly translated.

[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because God has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely God is High, Great.

The verse after it say:

4.35. If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, God will cause their reconciliation: For God hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

The Koran does not say beat them. It says "Idribuhunna". Which means strike them. Its from the word "daraba". Which means strike. Its translated as beat them since it goes along with sectarian hadiths that justifies beating a woman lightly if she disobeys. Beat or hit is only one possible meaning of the word Dharaba. The hadiths also says the prophet pinched or poked one of his wife. Since Aisha is always reported relating hadiths like bombs falling from a B-52 it had to be her of course. These are sources Muslim sects use to translate the Koran. These hadiths emerged 2 to 3 centuries after the prophet which the sectarian clerics believe were "orally" passed down across 6 or 7 generations. It was compiled by men like Imam Bukhari or Imam Muslim or Tabri etc. between 220 to 350 after the prophet's death.

Anyways when the Koran uses Dharaba , it always explains strike what or how. Let see the Koran:

"Seest thou not how God sets (Dharaba) forth a parable? -- A goodly Word Like a goodly tree, Whose root is firmly fixed, And its branches (reach) To the heavens". Quran 14:24

26.63. Then We told Moses by inspiration: "Strike(Idhrib) the sea with thy rod." So it divided, and each separate part became like the huge, firm mass of a mountain.

"O you who believe, if you attack (Darabtum) in the cause of God then make a clear declaration, and do not say to those who greet you with peace: 'You are not a believer!' You are seeking the vanity of this world; but with God are many riches. That is how you were before, but God favoured you, so make a clear declaration. God is expert over what you do." (Quran 4:94)

"So how will it be when the Angels put them to death, striking (Yadriboona) their faces and their backs" (Quran 47:27)

"So We sealed (Darabna) upon their ears in the cave for a number of years." (Quran 18:11)

"Shall We take-away (Na'drib) the reminder from you, because you are a transgressing people?" (Quran 43:5)

"Have you not seen how God cites (Daraba) the example of a good word is like a good tree, whose root is firm and its branches in the sky." (Quran 14:24)

"As for the poor who face hardship in the cause of God, and they cannot leave (Darban) the land; the ignorant ones think they are rich from their modesty; you know them by their features, they do not ask the people repeatedly. And what you spend out of goodness, God is fully aware of it." (Quran 2:273)

14.25. It brings forth its fruit at all times, by the leave of its Lord. So God sets forth(Yadribu) parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition

43.58. And they say, "Are our gods best, or he?" This they set forth to thee(Dharabuhu) , only by way of disputation: yea, they are a contentious people

4.101. When ye travel(Dharabtum) through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

38.44. "And take in thy hand a little grass, and strike therewith(Fa'adrib): and break not (thy oath)." Truly We found him full of patience and constancy. How excellent in Our service! ever did he turn (to Us)!

So all these verses uses the word Dharaba differently. In fact if you look at all the verses in the Koran that uses the word Dharab, we would find it used for variou meanings:

To travel, to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 2:273

To strike: 2:60,73; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:4

To beat: 8:50; 47:27

To set up: 43:58; 57:13

To give (examples): 14:24,45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:28,58; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10,11

To take away, to ignore: 43:5

To condemn: 2:61

To seal, to draw over: 18:11

To cover: 24:31

To explain: 13:17

Since Dharaba has different meaning in the Arabic language depending on its context.

The verse only says "strike them". Yet this is insufficient to explain it as beat them, since strike(Dharaba) can mean many thing as we saw already.

The meaning strike them as to hit them or beat them physically over mere suspicion or fear is inconsistent with the Koran. Strike them can mean strike them out of the house or stike them out of your life or whatever.

O you who believe! Avoid much suspicions, indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it . And fear God. Verily, God is the One Who accepts repentance, Most Merciful. 49.12

O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done. 49.6

So we translate it as it is, and not how the hadiths say it should be, which is:

38.34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them , refuse to share their beds and strike them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means : For God is Most High.

If we look at the Koran, it mentions the situation when one ACCUSES a woman of ill conduct and even a spouse accuses another of ill conduct. Lets see what it say:

24.4. And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-

24.5. Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

24.6. And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by God that they are solemnly telling the truth;

24.7. And the fifth that they solemnly invoke the curse of God on themselves if they tell a lie.

24.8. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times By God, that he is telling a lie;

24.9. And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of God on herself if he is telling the truth.

24.10. If it were not for God's grace and mercy on you, and that God is Oft- Returning, full of Wisdom,-


How can then the Koran say to lay hands on someone over a mere fear or suspicion when it does not even allow it over an accusation backed by the witness of 3 people and even the witness of a spouse if the other spouse also swears by oath that its not true? So the sectarian hadith inspired translation contradicts the Koran.

When debating one must quote the Koran as it is and not pick and chose the verses and ignore and avoid the verses that explains or clarifies it. This is a very bad Christian and Jewish habit I have seen in mant forums.

[JoeyKnothead]

Let me try this again

I placed this thread as a protest of being called in league with the devil, evil, and what have you.These by people using the exact same quote mining techniques I used herein.

In this whole time, no one, not the first person has said they condem the violence within these passages,

regardless of who was committing them

only that I had taken them out of context

Now had I posted passages and said, "See what a fine religion here," then there would have been no accusations of quote mining against me, and we'd all sing and clap and it'd be a fine how do ya do.

As much as I railed, and hollered, and waved my hands, and pointed to the EXACT LOCATION of the violence within these passages, and condemned them, I was accused of using hate tactics.

And to say 'well that ain't what I do' is great and all, but I am pointing the finger at your, and in fact pretty near all other religions, and saying - You may read only the parts which are nice, and kind, and gentle, and fluffy. But there are others who only read the passages I've used, and they will use the SAME TEXT YOU USE to promote, and endorse, and act out in violence, in the name of YOUR TEXTS.


And I hereby present to you the dual nature of religion -

Those passages that support my position, they're frosted flakes

Those passages that don't, they're raisin bran.

[umair]

This business of quote mining is a common (among most theists) tactic, and I'm gonna call you on it every time you try. This tactic shows so well how the majority of theists do not, will not, and can not look at all the evidence. This is especially egregious in light of recent "examine all the evidence" debates regarding evo/id in our schools and legislatures.

By picking and choosing those passages which support your position, and disregarding those that don't leads me to believe you have come to an invalid, unjustified, unverifiable position. This then leads me to think your reasons and proofs for your religion are faulty, illogical, and not worthy of serious consideration.

If we are to accept one passage, because it is >insert one or more of history's gods< word, then all of it is. Either your reference book is accurate, or its not. And if one passage has been misinterpreted, then who has the authority to say which? Which passage is the inerrant, unquestionable, unmistakeable word of God? And who is so intelligent, so discerning, so brilliant of mind that they can give us this revelation? Certainly not the priesthood, so riddled with molesters, and embezzlers, and con men. This is exactly why I think the evidence points to religion as being a human construct, devoid of all godly or otherworldy influence.

Your passages of peace and love prove to me you are not the 'one true whatever' because my passages of hate, taken from our one shared text tell me you are wrong, wicked, evil, and not worthy of MY one true interpretation. And how dare you tell me I'm wrong, because right here it says >insert particular, contradictory passage<. Do you not see how silly this looks?

One day someone wakes up and creates the Jewish idea of religion, the next day someone wakes up and says no, they're wrong, here's the new & improved version, and I'll be danged if along comes some other guy who says idiots and infidels, I have the one true way (and reading other threads, we might hafta add another feller into the mix). In all of this we see the - work with me here - evolution - of 1 religion into how many I don't have the fingers and toes to count. And in all of this each new religion hates the previous one, increasing in degree of hate the further back it goes, the closer it gets to the original religion in the first danged place! This is why the Jews are so hated, and hated more, by each succession of religion that follows them. And yet they are among the most peace loving, and tolerant of all the religions, and arguably moreso than the religions, based on the Jewish religion, which follow!

Can we not love one another, and respect each other for the sheer fact we are all human beings? It is all fine and well, and even admirable to say that this or that from my book tells us to love each other. But when that very book also condemns, and calls on us to hate each other I say we gotta write yet another. And for the sake of humanity, let's get this one right. I know, let's say it is encumbent upon us all to love one another regardless of what we believe.

The Muslim religion in particular seems to be so adept at saying Allah says to take over the world, but don't let anyone know that's our true goal. I know it says so right here in this book, but try to distract everyone with the passages that claim we're all cool with everybody. I know, hey look, a bunny...

If I may paraphrase Jaime Foxx:

I'm not saying you are a hypocrite, I'm saying its hypocrite-ish
I'm not saying you are a quote miner, I'm saying its quote mine-ish
I'm not saying you are dishonestly representing your position, I'm saying its dishonest-ish

See where I'm going with this?

No, no, no son, you got it all wrong. You're takin' it, I say you're takin' it all outta context.

well , i,ll tell you a story,

(there were two brothers who loved each other very much, and used to do every thing together.

but one day the younger one commited a mistake and then the elder one to make him realize his mistake punished him)

what did you find,

you must have found the elder one to be wrong, hating,bad,etc because you have read that he was the one who punished.


well this is how you have been playing with the verses of the quran,
and when i try to tell you that you should understand th whole story, that whatever the elderone did was for the benefit of his brother , then you say that dont try to sugarcoat the act of the elder brother.


come on buddy be grown up!!!!!!!!!!

[JoeyKnothead]

I read a post from another forum member recently, and It has led me to reevaluate my position.

{|= Here in the Bible belt, my atheism has had me placed in some really unfortunate circumstances, and its not this forum's fault.

I have a certain spiritual side (if that's even possible for an atheist) and when someone equates my position with evil, I take it personally. And what do I do? I take it out on my fellow board members, and for that I apologize.

I think I have acted out because of one person, and I've been, frankly, immature and prejudicial in my reaction to it.

So please allow my sincere apology for not being mature enough to recognize MY own faults, and maybe projecting them onto others.

I think some of what I have said has been accurate, but only from the position of one individual. I allowed one person to reinforce my prejudices and sterotypes, and I was wrong for having done so.

In the future I will try my best to think about the harms my own words and actions can cause, no matter how 'correct' they may be.

So for my peace loving Muslim friends, I apologize for lumping you in with the worst of your lot. I also accept you now lumping me in with the worst of my lot, until such time I have proven I am worthy of your respect, as you are worthy of mine.


PS, if any of y'all repeat any of this to other board members I will poke you with a sharp stick