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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:12 pm
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By faith atheist have to believe series.

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There are many things that atheist have to believe by faith and this series in intended to take a look at some of the theology that atheist have have to believe.

1. By faith atheist believe that truth about reality is knowable. (for us to know anything about reality the following has to be true)
a. our senses give us a true perception of reality
b. the existence of the external world
c. the existence of other minds (like Earth science Guy: that's right I am a real person maybe at least atheists have to have faith that I am.)
d. The axioms of logic (we describe people as crazy because they do not think logically, but they believe they are being logical)

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:14 pm
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Re: By faith atheist have to believe series.

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EarthScienceguy wrote:

There are many things that atheist have to believe by faith and this series in intended to take a look at some of the theology that atheist have have to believe.

1. By faith atheist believe that truth about reality is knowable. (for us to know anything about reality the following has to be true)
a. our senses give us a true perception of reality
b. the existence of the external world
c. the existence of other minds (like Earth science Guy: that's right I am a real person maybe at least atheists have to have faith that I am.)
d. The axioms of logic (we describe people as crazy because they do not think logically, but they believe they are being logical)



This New Atheist does not have beliefs.

I leave the word "belief" to those who have it in their heads that their Divine Leader was the "Son of God" … or whatever.

Nonetheless …

The items in your list are ALL measurable/identifiable in some way.

However ...

"In the beginning (the biblical version of) God created the heaven and the earth" is not measurable/identifiable in ANY way.

So if we can't get past Gen 1:1 …

Putting our "faith" in any of the rest of the biblical propaganda has little or no no basis in truth or reality.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:23 pm
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Re: By faith atheist have to believe series.

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EarthScienceguy wrote:

There are many things that atheist have to believe by faith and this series in intended to take a look at some of the theology that atheist have have to believe.

1. By faith atheist believe that truth about reality is knowable. (for us to know anything about reality the following has to be true)
a. our senses give us a true perception of reality
b. the existence of the external world
c. the existence of other minds (like Earth science Guy: that's right I am a real person maybe at least atheists have to have faith that I am.)
d. The axioms of logic (we describe people as crazy because they do not think logically, but they believe they are being logical)


I don't see a debate question.
Just an attempt at trying to level the playing field.

Things that are measurable or identifiable do not require 'faith'.
God concepts and other things that are not measurable or identifiable are things that require faith.

What I have noticed is that faith is a requirement in order to believe in false things. That doesn't mean that faith cannot lead someone to a true belief obviously, but it is a mechanism for believing in false things. That is why I leave faith to the religious.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:58 pm
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Re: By faith atheist have to believe series.

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[Replying to post 1 by EarthScienceguy]

Quite a stretch to make "I don't believe your god tales" into a 'belief'

If one doesn't believe in the tooth fairy, is that also a 'belief'?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:44 pm
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Re: By faith atheist have to believe series.

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EarthScienceguy wrote:

There are many things that atheist have to believe by faith and this series in intended to take a look at some of the theology that atheist have have to believe.


Atheism is just the absense of belief in the hundreds of gods humans have claimed exist. No faith is required for that. The default position for anything is non-belief until one becomes convinced otherwise.

We just believe in one less god than you do. Do you have to employ faith not it believe in the flying spaghetti monster?


EarthScienceguy wrote:


1. By faith atheist believe that truth about reality is knowable.


There is no atheist rules that states you must believe that truth about reality is knowable. All it is is simply the absense of belief in gods, which we all start off with when we are born.

Do you believe that babies have faith with their disbelief in God?


EarthScienceguy wrote:


a. our senses give us a true perception of reality
b. the existence of the external world
c. the existence of other minds (like Earth science Guy: that's right I am a real person maybe at least atheists have to have faith that I am.)
d. The axioms of logic (we describe people as crazy because they do not think logically, but they believe they are being logical)


None of these things are needed for us to simply not believe in something.


Last edited by OnceConvinced on Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:50 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:47 pm
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Re: By faith atheist have to believe series.

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EarthScienceguy wrote:

There are many things that atheist have to believe by faith and this series in intended to take a look at some of the theology that atheist have have to believe.

1. By faith atheist believe that truth about reality is knowable. (for us to know anything about reality the following has to be true)
a. our senses give us a true perception of reality
b. the existence of the external world
c. the existence of other minds (like Earth science Guy: that's right I am a real person maybe at least atheists have to have faith that I am.)
d. The axioms of logic (we describe people as crazy because they do not think logically, but they believe they are being logical)


I can't speak for every atheist, but the method you've described inaccurately above as a "theology" is not the method I use for acquiring knowledge (epistemology) about the truth of reality (ontology). To begin with, I need to distinguish between the philosophical concept of a metaphysical (absolute) truth about reality and my perception of truth in the reality I perceive. The philosophical problem of solipsism demonstrates where my ability to acquire metaphysical truth is limited to the metaphysical knowledge of my own existence. Beyond that, everything I perceive as existing in the external world could possibly be an elaborate simulation transmitted directly into my mind. There is no way to falsify that claim but no way to confirm it either. However, regardless of whether the external world actually exists or is an elaborate simulation, I observe that there are objective consequences for actions taken in the reality I perceive. In other words, I don't require faith in the claim that the external world I perceive actually exists or faith in the claim that the external world is just an elaborate simulation because I still experience pleasure, pain, and everything else in-between as an objective consequence of my actions or the actions of other people and things in the reality I perceive no matter what the metaphysical truth of it might be.

So, if the absolute truth of my reality is that I'm actually a disembodied brain hooked-up to an advanced technology designed to fool me into thinking the elaborately simulated external environment I perceive around me actually exists, then I currently have no way to obtain that knowledge. Even if it were possible for me to acquire that knowledge, it would not help to inform any pragmatic decision I could make in the reality I perceive. The same logic applies to the metaphysical claims about the existence of God. Whether God exists or not, there is currently no way to obtain that knowledge nor would my possession of that knowledge help to inform any pragmatic decision I could make. I don't require faith in the metaphysical claim that God exists or faith in the metaphysical claim that God doesn't exist in order to acquire knowledge about the reality I perceive. Furthermore, I don't require faith in the claim that my senses reliably reveal the metaphysical truth of reality in order to use them to acquire knowledge about my perceived reality. Likewise, I don't require faith in the claim that other minds metaphysically exist to acquire knowledge about the objective consequences of my actions on what I perceive as being other minds or to acquire knowledge about the objective consequences of actions committed by those other minds.

For more details on my perspective, you are welcome to read my notes at the following link: Epistemology

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:36 am
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Re: By faith atheist have to believe series.

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EarthScienceguy wrote:

There are many things that atheist have to believe by faith and this series in intended to take a look at some of the theology that atheist have have to believe.

1. By faith atheist believe that truth about reality is knowable. (for us to know anything about reality the following has to be true)


Not at all. An atheist doesn't need to claim to know any absolute truth.

EarthScienceguy wrote:

a. our senses give us a true perception of reality


An atheist doesn't need to make this claim. All they need to point out is that we cannot know anything beyond what we can perceive. That's all that is necessary.

And this is a simple self-evident truth that doesn't need to be justified.

EarthScienceguy wrote:

b. the existence of the external world


Not true. An atheist doesn't need to make any claims about the existence of any external world. Some atheists may also be materialists, but a belief in materialism is not a requirement to be an atheist. All an atheist is saying is that there is no evidence for any imagined supernatural intelligent agents (or Gods)

EarthScienceguy wrote:

c. the existence of other minds (like Earth science Guy: that's right I am a real person maybe at least atheists have to have faith that I am.)


Atheists typically accept that this is most likely the case, but they don't need to commit to it. In fact, for all an atheist knows Earthscienceguy is nothing more than a chatbot created by AI enthusiasts. By the way, it would not be all that surprising to discover that this is the case. In fact, this would actually explain quit a bit.

EarthScienceguy wrote:

d. The axioms of logic (we describe people as crazy because they do not think logically, but they believe they are being logical)


Logical reason is all any human has to go by. And ironically theist try to use logic to argue for an illogical mythological God that rational reasoning cannot support.

So it's theists who need to toss logic and rational reasoning out the window altogether.

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