Morality of Teaching Animals

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JoeyKnothead
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Morality of Teaching Animals

Post #1

Post by JoeyKnothead »

I was remembering the chimp who was taught sign language, and then went on to teach it to others, and it got me to thinking of an old subject I used to ponder...

for reference...
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-Ne ... 1142?f=rss

Now I know this sounds ridiculous, but let's see where it goes. I was in a discussion once about language in chimps, and someone said, "They can't talk because they don't have a voice box." Now me, being the contrarian I am, I immediately answered, "No, they don't have a voice box because they don't talk." And I think there is some truth to this, which leads me too...

I think it would be one heck of a deal if we could teach chimps/bonobos to talk. Of course it would take many many years, and much effort, but I think it could be done.

So, my question is twicefold my forum folk...

1- Could we teach chimps/bonobos or any animal to talk. Let's just jump to the end and say talk with us in a creative, meaningful way.

2- Would it be ethical/moral to change an animal, and perhaps an entire animal species in such one heck of a profound way?

Discuss among yourselves class, you will be graded on your answers.

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Post #2

Post by FinalEnigma »

I value knowledge fairly highly, and I don;t think there are many situations where it is unethical to teach something. there are some, but not many.

as far as teaching chimps or any other animal to speak, I would approach in a very different way. develop a new language specifically to be simple and easy to learn for one. If you could do this, and successfully teach the language to an animal, I don't see how it could be considered unethical to do so.

Catharsis

Post #3

Post by Catharsis »

>>>1- Could we teach chimps/bonobos or any animal to talk. Let's just jump to the end and say talk with us in a creative, meaningful way.

2- Would it be ethical/moral to change an animal, and perhaps an entire animal species in such one heck of a profound way?<<<

What would be the point of this exercise? Why would we want to "talk" with chimps in the first place? What's the purpose?

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Post #4

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Ok, catharsis failed. Class, let's continue the discussion while catharsis ponders why he failed.

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Re: Morality of Teaching Animals

Post #5

Post by Goat »

joeyknuccione wrote:I was remembering the chimp who was taught sign language, and then went on to teach it to others, and it got me to thinking of an old subject I used to ponder...

for reference...
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-Ne ... 1142?f=rss

Now I know this sounds ridiculous, but let's see where it goes. I was in a discussion once about language in chimps, and someone said, "They can't talk because they don't have a voice box." Now me, being the contrarian I am, I immediately answered, "No, they don't have a voice box because they don't talk." And I think there is some truth to this, which leads me too...

I think it would be one heck of a deal if we could teach chimps/bonobos to talk. Of course it would take many many years, and much effort, but I think it could be done.

So, my question is twicefold my forum folk...

1- Could we teach chimps/bonobos or any animal to talk. Let's just jump to the end and say talk with us in a creative, meaningful way.
Koko the Gorilla does. There was a journalist who knows american sign language ,
and grew up with it , since both his parents were deaf/dumb. He had a conversation with Koko, and suddenly realized he was talking to a gorilla in his native language.

Koko has relayed the story of how she was captured, and how her mother was killed. I would say that is a creative and meaningful conversation.

2- Would it be ethical/moral to change an animal, and perhaps an entire animal species in such one heck of a profound way?
We did that to wolves , and to wild felines, we now have dogs and house cats. I don't see the difference.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Post #6

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Good points goat, but I'm asking about 'talking' as in voice, and the effects and moralities of such. We did indeed learn much from Koko, and I wonder what else we could learn through voice.

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Post #7

Post by Goat »

joeyknuccione wrote:Good points goat, but I'm asking about 'talking' as in voice, and the effects and moralities of such. We did indeed learn much from Koko, and I wonder what else we could learn through voice.
Why is 'voice' so important. You are audio centric? Why should a dolphin lower itself to our limitations? WHy is sound so important?
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Post #8

Post by JoeyKnothead »

As humans are so much more 'voice' centric than other senses, I think there could be more learning/understanding to be had by this. What I'm getting at I suppose is kind 'Planet of the Apes'-ish where we could eventually have, for lack of better words, two societies, if that helps the discussion along.

I also believe it could teach us lessons about evolution, as well as how language itself is acquired, used, and spread through society.

Admittedly, my idea is totally pie in the sky, but I'm seeking others' opinions merely for the sake of debate/discussion.

Some ideas...
Would we be seen by these new talking apes as bringing them 'up' or 'down'? It could be proposed that greatly expanding our ape cousins' ability to communicate with each other could lead to the ape's being able to better their own lot. Maybe as well, by speaking 'on our level' would this lead us to better protecting the apes, thus ensuring their survival?

Would the apes then demand we extend the experiment to other species, say cows for about the craziest example?

Would a speaking ape be entitled to all the rights of humans? This is actually being debated in I think Spain.

On the evolution front, would the adaptations to the apes voice mechanisms teach us about our own, and lead us to be able then to learn to speak/teach speech to many of the other animals?

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Post #9

Post by C-Nub »

Moving past the questions, which I don't know the answer to and therefore am not going to speculate on, regarding whether apes / chimps have the pattern recognition skills, ocular range, memory and associative capabilities to associate the sounds that they can make with 'language' as we understand it. It's not just a skill, like tool making and teaching by doing or mime, language requires special brain development, and this isn't something I'm sure is adequately supplied by the ones in lower primates.

Then again, maybe it is, I really have no idea.

Anyways, supposing that apes could, in let's say two or three generations, be taught to talk so that they could express themselves meaningfully or intelligently with human beings, which is to say average human beings, should this be pursued? Is this is a moral thing to do.

That depends on the purpose of the educated primate, why are we teaching them. Are they to perform? Are they to take this language into a sanctuary and develop a second culture for comparison? Do they want to learn to talk? Is it something that makes them happy, something all higher prmiates have no trouble expressing?

Are educated enough to tamper with these sorts of things? What if it was easier to accomplish by genetically giving the apes a voice-box? Is that better? Worse?

For me, teaching them how to do it 'taints' the best things we could learn from them developing language. It isn't amoral, it's just 'bad' data. I'd be interested in giving one monkey a voice box to see if it could develope langauge on its own, if that was the ONLY thing it was missing, but as a question to whether or not apes-at-large should be exposed to it as a cultural experiment, no. Humans should solve human problems before investing in that kind of experiment anyways, but more importantly, if apes develop language more-or-less on their own, then we have evidence intelligent life is going to be little less improbable in the Galaxy / Universe at large. It's not as good as a tool using fish thing on europa, but hey, what can you do.

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Post #10

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Good points C-Nub, good post.

I'm not proposing they 'perform', but more like we would keep a colony by itself, say on an island for lack of a better idea. I'm exploring the mechanics and linguistics of speech, and not seeking circus clowns. I would say keep them isolated for sure, and maybe have a control colony. I also like your questions, "Do they want to learn to talk?" and "Is it something that makes them happy?" Great questions, and you get extra credit for bringing them up. You've now put a lot of research projects in question, for good or bad.

Are we educated enough to tamper with these sorts of things? Fair enough question, but like with much of science (nuclear energy, bombs) we will disregard these, and say the pure pursuit of science is worth it. Or is it? (I say it is so I can get my mad scientist grant money, and keep this debate moving)

I hadn't thought of the issue of tainting the project by not seeing if the language could develop on its own. Another good point, and in order to advance the research, we will have the control colony for comparison.

Your bottom line - No, it is not moral. "Humans should solve human problems (first). I accept your answer, you have made good points all through, and you will receive a passing grade for this class.

C-Nubs' answer of no is accepted because he brings great points to his argument, not necessarily because no is the correct answer.

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