Is blasphemy worse than infanticide?

[OnceConvinced]

In another thread on the topic of the dispicable things done in the name of religion, a Christian made this absolutely appalling and sickening statement in regards to infanticide:

What those persecutors did to fellow humans isn't nearly as troublesome to God as what many atheists do right here and elsewhere, daily blaspheming the Holy Spirit, knowing the truth but rejecting it. God hates the shedding of innocent blood, listing that as one the top seven sins, yet none come close to blasphemy.

Yes. Believe it or not, this person had the audacity to suggest that blaspheming God is worse than infanticide!

Is blasphemy worse than infaticide? If yes, In what way?

Why would blasphemy upset an all-knowing, all-powerful perfect being?

What negative effects could it possibly have on this being or anyone else for that matter?

[Word_Swordsman]

You haven't answered the question. Why would it upset God? Why would anything offend him? Showing offence due to insults seems to me to be a weakness of character.

Again, it isn't an upsetting of God. The very agent of direct contact with humans, sent back from Heaven in the place of Jesus, is at the heart of the blasphemy issue. The moment a person rejects His presence, the One working to enlighten you to the truth, is cut off from seeing any proofs of God in their lifetime. Jesus will not return to shed blood again for a blasphemer. He has no more to shed, coming through the earth-man suit just once. The Father's position has always been to occupy Heaven, the ultimate last word on anything. The Father designated Jesus to introduce the salvation plan of God, and the Spirit maintains that plan among men, Himself not occupying Heaven. That leaves the one agent of the Godhead here on earth who presides over salvation. Rejecting the Spirit through blasphemy, saying His works are evil, castigating His motives, is the final ABORT between God and a man. The Bible says the Father calls men to Christ through the Holy Spirit, and His obligation stands at one calling, though some folks get additional callings. It's one thing to ignore the calling, quite another to demean the Callers' agent. Jesus taught that quite plainly in parables, such as in Mark 12:1-12. That applied directly to the Christ being rejected, but also applies equally to treatment of the Holy Spirit. Final rejection of Christ Jesus brings on the judgment against the vine dresser the landlord left in charge. Blaspheming the Spirit causes such judgment to be sealed against a violator, cutting him off from further attempts to save, making it impossible to later accept the Christ (the servant in the parable). All of that expresses a very strong character, not bending to the desires of men who need to be saved. The men that rejected that sermon are the ones who saw to His crucifixion.

What negative effects could it possibly have on this being or anyone else for that matter?

I suppose you mean effect upon the blasphemer. He is cut off like diseased branches on an orchard vine left on the ground to be gathered up and burned. He has no hope of salvation, but only a certain fearful looking toward the Judgment.

I am asking what ill effects it will have on God and man.

What adverse affect does blasphemy have on God?

None whatsoever. His judgment was in existence before a man today blasphemes. The violator takes upon himself all responsibility for ending in a lake of fire forever. He cannot say at his judgment he didn't get a square deal.

I'll posit a real scenario. We adopted a daughter. I set up a college fund for her. She was raised a Christian. I made it clear to my children I will gladly educate them, but only if they remained in righteousness. There would be no report of drunkenness or other sins. By her second year she announced she was no longer a Christian. Bad choice. I immediately stopped supporting her. She is now flipping hamburgers with no degree or hope of doing well. She later admitted she was duped, but too late, not getting back to a life in Christ to this day. We spent her funds on remodeling our home. The other daughter is a speech therapist. The adopted daughter completely rejected her parents by denouncing all we had taught her, showing us a vile lifestyle in return for the next 4 years. She was shocked we would cut her off, and is now out of my will. I will not support a heathen. We still love her, but must be consistent. I pay the bills she can't afford due to a low salary, like groceries and basic utilities. We refuse to pay for internet and TV cable, movies, etc. We are only humane towards her in that lifestyle. A good result is she can't afford to smoke, do pot, drink beer, or do the club scene, owns no vehicle, relies on the bus system. Any blessings she gets will have to come through the gospel way apart from us.

With regards to your answer, if we choose to reject God we have already sealed our fate right? What difference is blasphemy going to make on top of that? What difference will any sin make once we have rejected God?

Not so. You have a lifetime to choose JESUS, unless you abort that path by blaspheming the One sent by Jesus to help you. Once you do that there is no more hope. The one sin to be brought up is the blasphemy. No need in going over the lesser sins. At that point it doesn't matter how much you sin, or how deeply. God will let you destroy yourself, but will love you right up to the gate of hell. I do believe punishment in hell will be on a sliding scale basis, the most vile suffering the most. God's condition is based on faith, not empirical evidence. Once you are in Christ through faith, then comes the proofs that embolden you to live the Christ way. You insist on God showing Himself to you. You can't see that when you refuse to go where God shows up, mostly in a biblical church congregation. I took a skeptic to a Benny Hinn crusade. In our group was a girl distorted by rheumatic arthritis, confined to a wheel chair. She was parked right up against the stage. Way before the meeting began, only singers were there entertaining and beginning worship in the huge crowd. People in wheelchairs began getting up, drawing screams from their respective groups in the stands. The girl got up, walked away from her wheelchair, her mom running down the long aisle to join her. The wheelchair was taken home empty. All that happened without Hinn in the room! She stood up on faith. That is only one of many miracles I've witnessed. My companion accepted Christ at Hinn's invitation, becoming a totally new person full of joy, and still going strong. My point is you can reject all day long in total ignorance of what God is doing for people today all over earth. In the midst of plenty of evidences atheists deepen their shame by rejecting it all from the get-go. What happens to you in eternity will be all by your own doings.

God requires that we all forgive as he forgives us. Christians seem to think God is the role model for forgiveness, but yet his forgiveness is conditional. So we say something against him. We blaspheme. Isn't it rather petty of God to refuse to forgive that if we are truly sorry for it? Especially seeing as the blasphemy does not actually affect any innocent humans.

Such a large question! Some Christians say God requires us to always forgive and forget any offense. It's true that if we don't we can't have inner peace and God will be limited as to forgiveness of our own sins. However, there are several instructions that cover the subject thoroughly. One is at Luke 17:4 "And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him." From a human perspective that seems a tough commandment to follow, but it works well in the long run. The point is while God forgives conditionally, demanding repentance, He doesn't require us to forgive more perfectly than He does. As an offender repents, forgive. Except...that one sin He cannot, will not forgive.

Some here have on the surface gone over the line, having been exposed to the truth for years. There is a possible loop-hole for others. Hebrews 10:26-29 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

From your statements I'd say you labor under a lot of false teachings, not yet having received the knowledge of truth sufficiently. The Pharisees Jesus warned had no excuse, having the law as well as Jesus' gospel to consider.

As for blasphemy affecting other humans, it does damage the faith of weak believers to be exposed to a lot of blasphemy. Your actions in this life affect someone else who seeks truth. They have the Holy Spirit on their side, guiding them into truth, but can suffer lost ground along their way because of skeptics.

The pharasees were rebuked by Jesus for taking the law to extremes, for condemning people for the silliest of reasons. I'm sure Jesus would have said the same about those who accuse others of blaspheming. I have seen some people accuse others of blasphemy for the silliest little reasons. I don't think Jesus would have been impressed. Monty Python did a great satire of this sort of thing in the movie "The life of Bryan" where people became enraged and stoned a man simply for saying God's name. Seeing what some people accuse others of when it comes to blasphemy, I'd say it's not actually that far off reality.

What matters is your decision about the gospel.

Also one should be wary of who they accuse of blasphemy. After all it is not up to any man to judge. Perhaps accusing members here of being blasphemers is not wise from that perspective?

The Bible doesn't exclude judgment of spiritual matters from Christians. While caution is in order, we have this 1 Cor. 11:31 "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." Safety resides in the righteousness of Christ in us.

Again...1 Cor. 6:2-5 "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? [3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? [4] If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. [5] I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?"

And...Romans 16:17 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."

Without righteous judgment false teachers would abound to the great injury of the Church.

[Word_Swordsman]

I spent two years at Bible College in an attempt to discover the deeper truths of my faith. The more I learned about the text of the Bible, the more I discovered that the alleged insights were based on the flimsiest foundation.

No wonder! That was just enough to confuse anyone. You missed out on the best two years, not getting enough theology to carry on. The junior & senior curriculum would have immersed you deeply enough to put it all together, well enough to preach sermons and bring souls to Christ your first few weeks in the pulpit.

You are getting those deeper truths now here, but seem to ignore it, which apparently you did those two years of taking what is typically offered to freshmen/sophomores, Bible intro, counseling, the light stuff. You skipped apologetics, homiletical theory, advanced Bible text studies, etc.

[Word_Swordsman]

Why do atheists come here? I for one KNOW Xianity is a joke. The God hypothesis is seriously flawed and barely worth considering, but guess what, most people in the country I live in believe in the silliness of religion.

I am dedicated to teaching people Reason and Logic and I believe that religious peope are in the bigest need of learning those concepts.

Why do you have so much trouble defending your "perfect" book? Perhaps you only claim to believe something you don't REALLY believe?

You cannot know that. You believe that. Saying you know Christianity is a joke is an insult against reason and logic. You see, God already has you pegged in Psalm 14:1 "To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." Couple that with Proverbs 18:2 "A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself."

Rejecting Christianity is to reject God. Most people do believe, a scant minority not believing. In the presence of so many witnesses any reasonable person ought to admit he is wrong not to believe. But, there's the catch, as no fool can understand.

Nothing personal. God said it, and I'm letting you know.

[Cathar1950]

Why do atheists come here? I for one KNOW Xianity is a joke. The God hypothesis is seriously flawed and barely worth considering, but guess what, most people in the country I live in believe in the silliness of religion.

I am dedicated to teaching people Reason and Logic and I believe that religious peope are in the bigest need of learning those concepts.

Why do you have so much trouble defending your "perfect" book? Perhaps you only claim to believe something you don't REALLY believe?

You cannot know that. You believe that. Saying you know Christianity is a joke is an insult against reason and logic. You see, God already has you pegged in Psalm 14:1 "To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." Couple that with Proverbs 18:2 "A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself."

Rejecting Christianity is to reject God. Most people do believe, a scant minority not believing. In the presence of so many witnesses any reasonable person ought to admit he is wrong not to believe. But, there's the catch, as no fool can understand.

Nothing personal. God said it, and I'm letting you know.

Rejecting Christianity is not the same as rejecting God or even the concept of God for there are many Christianities and interpretations.
God didn't say that, you quoted it from a book you wrongly believe to be the "Word of God", they are the words of men and maybe some women. Some of the Psalms were borrowed from others as well as some of the proverbs.
Don't be blaming it on God that you called him a fool.
It is one thing to be insulting it is another to cop-out and blame it one God.
I suspect your last post was every bit as blasphemous as anything atheist have written.
It is one thing to believe in God it is another to make claims. In your case it seems to be the Bible and your sectarian view that you assume should also be true for everyone that should be questioned..

[McCulloch]

Nothing personal. God said it, and I'm letting you know.

You don't get off so easily. I don't remember if it was you or one of the other believers, but somebody has said that it is a choice to believe that the Bible is the Word of God. If it is your choice, (and I believe that it is not), then it is also your choice to believe that atheists are fools. Take responsibility for your own choices, and admit that it is you who personally believes that atheists are fools.

[OnceConvinced]

Again, it isn't an upsetting of God. The very agent of direct contact with humans, sent back from Heaven in the place of Jesus, is at the heart of the blasphemy issue. The moment a person rejects His presence, the One working to enlighten you to the truth, is cut off from seeing any proofs of God in their lifetime.

Ok, so who does the cutting off? Is God no longer able to enlighten this human any more? This is obviously God's choice that this should happen. So why would God do this if it isn't because he is pissed off? God makes the rules, he creates the consequences. Why would it matter so much to God that we are cut off from him? Why make it the most terrible sin of all? Is he that egotistical?

I am asking what ill effects it will have on God and man.

What adverse affect does blasphemy have on God?

None whatsoever.

So then what makes it the world's worst sin? God doesn't just declare something a sin unless it wrongs someone in some way. If the negative effect is that it will result in us winding up in Hell, then you have circular reasoning:

If you sin, you go to Hell
Blasphemy is a sin because you'll end up in Hell if you do it.

Can you see how silly that is?

I'll posit a real scenario. We adopted a daughter. I set up a college fund for her. She was raised a Christian. I made it clear to my children I will gladly educate them, but only if they remained in righteousness. There would be no report of drunkenness or other sins. By her second year she announced she was no longer a Christian. Bad choice. I immediately stopped supporting her. She is now flipping hamburgers with no degree or hope of doing well. She later admitted she was duped, but too late, not getting back to a life in Christ to this day. We spent her funds on remodeling our home. The other daughter is a speech therapist. The adopted daughter completely rejected her parents by denouncing all we had taught her, showing us a vile lifestyle in return for the next 4 years. She was shocked we would cut her off, and is now out of my will. I will not support a heathen. We still love her, but must be consistent. I pay the bills she can't afford due to a low salary, like groceries and basic utilities. We refuse to pay for internet and TV cable, movies, etc. We are only humane towards her in that lifestyle. A good result is she can't afford to smoke, do pot, drink beer, or do the club scene, owns no vehicle, relies on the bus system. Any blessings she gets will have to come through the gospel way apart from us.

And this is worse than her commiting infanticide because?

So what if she does this? The penalty is that she will not receive your support. She'll survive. She'll get by on her own like everyone else does. Would you be more angry at her for defying your will or for the mass murder of innocent children? Would you be more angry at your child for defying you or for commiting rape? Is it worse than maiming people or commiting fraud?

Will continue in another post as for some reason the graphics on this one has screwed up everything's turned microscopic.

[JoeyKnothead]

The idea God can't forgive those who deny his existence is born purely out of a desire to scare people into churches. You can be forgiven for any sin, because these are actual sins (crimes). These are sins folks may commit, as bad as they are, but they happen. So in order to get you back into church, the Bible allows you to repent, and carry on about your worshiping.

When you reject God's existence, you have taken power away from the priests who profit by spreading 'the word'. Notice in times past this was such a crime as to have you hanged or worse. It is the refutation of God that so scares the priests, and organized religion, not murder, not rape, but saying, "Nah-ah." Only this of the possible sins, all the transgressions, all the evils one could commit, only this sin challenges the priest's power.

This sin, and it only, has the power to empty the churches, and the coffers of those who profit off propagating ancient myth. This is the only sin within the bible for which there is no secular analog.

Only this sin challenges the beliefs of the believer.

[OnceConvinced]

With regards to your answer, if we choose to reject God we have already sealed our fate right? What difference is blasphemy going to make on top of that? What difference will any sin make once we have rejected God?

Not so. You have a lifetime to choose JESUS, unless you abort that path by blaspheming the One sent by Jesus to help you.

Ok, good point. But this is God's decision to cut us off completely. He doesn't have to do that. It all comes back to the question of why would this be the worst sin you could possibly commit? It just doesn't make sense. There is no good logical reason why it should be considered the worst sin of all. You have certainly not given a reason apart from the fact it cuts us off from God, which really isn't a big deal unless you take into account we'll end up in Hell because of it, but then that's our own fault isn't it? In the end it results in the same outcome as any other sin, doesn't it?

Once you do that there is no more hope. The one sin to be brought up is the blasphemy.

Not at all. What about all the other sins you will commit in your life time? Blasphemy is not the last sin you will ever commit, nor is it the only one. The only thing you've done is get God so pissed off that he's cut himself off for you for ever. That's all you've done! There are so many more worse things that that. And if you're saying that in God's mind it's the worst thing ever, you haven't explained why that would be the case. So he cuts us off. So what? People can live a satisfying life without God in their life. And even if say they can't, so what? It's their decision. It's not gonna hurt God, right? So why should it be the worst sin ever?

No need in going over the lesser sins.

It's only a greater sin because God says so. But you have not given a good reason why its worse than any other sin.

At that point it doesn't matter how much you sin, or how deeply. God will let you destroy yourself, but will love you right up to the gate of hell.

So if we destroy ourself, what's the big deal for God? How is that worse than destroying the lives of others, particularly the lives of innocent children?

By the way, I don't call that love. That's a pretty warped type of love and is definitely not unconditional love as the bible claims God has. I would never cut my children off just because they disobeyed my rules. I guess that makes me more loving and merciful than God. This isn't just a matter of cutting off support. This cutting off which you describe of God is so much more than that. It's a refusal to forgive that person. An absolute flat out refusal! You are sentencing that person to death in Hell (or eternal torment in Hell).

God's condition is based on faith, not empirical evidence. Once you are in Christ through faith, then comes the proofs that embolden you to live the Christ way.

You assume that I was not a true Christian. I dispute that entirely, but that is another discussion. I believed I was in Christ and it made me want to live Christ's way.

You insist on God showing Himself to you. You can't see that when you refuse to go where God shows up, mostly in a biblical church congregation.

WS, I have lived most of my life as a Christian. I attended church every week of my life, sometimes more than once a week. He showed me nothing that couldn't be easily put down to natural occurances.

Anyway, I don't see what any of this has to do with the post topic. Now you're just starting to preach.

My point is you can reject all day long in total ignorance of what God is doing for people today all over earth.

For one thing, my rejection of Christ came two years ago. It happened once in my life. It has not happened again.

Secondly, there are many remarkable claims of what God is doing around the world, but the thing is none of them are ever proven to have happened. All throughught my life I have heard stories of things happening, but I never saw any of those things happen myself. They are all JUST stories. You'll have to excuse me if I don't buy the one you told. I have found Christians have a habit of exagerating such things.

In the midst of plenty of evidences atheists deepen their shame by rejecting it all from the get-go. What happens to you in eternity will be all by your own doings.

That's just it, there is no evidence. Only stories. Heresay! I don't take stories from other people as proof. God had heaps of chance to show me his power when I followed him faithfully for over 30 years. He never did.

Such a large question! Some Christians say God requires us to always forgive and forget any offense. It's true that if we don't we can't have inner peace and God will be limited as to forgiveness of our own sins. However, there are several instructions that cover the subject thoroughly. One is at Luke 17:4 "And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him." From a human perspective that seems a tough commandment to follow, but it works well in the long run. The point is while God forgives conditionally, demanding repentance, He doesn't require us to forgive more perfectly than He does. As an offender repents, forgive. Except...that one sin He cannot, will not forgive.

So if someone puts you down or insults you, you wouldn't forgive them? I'd bet you have been insulted and put down many times in your life but have not held a grudge against that person. That would make you more forgiving than God.

However I doubt that if someone killed your child you'd be willing to forgive them, would you?

Really, what is so bad about blasphemy that God won't forgive it and re-establish his support? If your child who rejected you came crawling back on their hands and knees begging forgiveness, would you be so hard hearted and not return the support to her if she proved herself to you? The story of the Prodical Son actually shows that Jesus would. Even seems to contradict the idea of your unforgiveable sin.

From your statements I'd say you labor under a lot of false teachings, not yet having received the knowledge of truth sufficiently.

Don't think that what I believe now or what I see in the bible now is what I believed as a Christian. The difference now is that I am able to take off the rose colored Christian glasses and take the bible at face value. I don't feel the need to juggle scriptures around and try to change meanings. I don't need to try to justify anything or try to turn things around to make God appear more loving and merciful. I don't need to see the Bible as the infallible or even inspired word of God anymore. I can now see it for what it is, men's beliefs of God (and men make mistakes).

Anyway, I never claimed God's forgiveness if unconditional. It quite clearly isn't. I don't see you arguing against that, but agreeing with it. My point is that God is very petty if he cannot forgive insults or put downs. After all most humans are capable of that. I have no problems with people blaspheming me if they are sorry about it later. I'd happily forgive them.

As for blasphemy affecting other humans, it does damage the faith of weak believers to be exposed to a lot of blasphemy. Your actions in this life affect someone else who seeks truth. They have the Holy Spirit on their side, guiding them into truth, but can suffer lost ground along their way because of skeptics.

It is hardly the skeptics fault if the believer has weak faith. If that believer truly has the Holy Spirit then blasphemy by unbelievers should not affect their faith. The HS is stronger than the words of the sceptic. God is stronger than the words of the sceptic. If the believers faith is affected then that shows a weakness on the HS's part. If the HS is unable to keep them in the faith, then there is something wrong with it.

You must realise that many unbelievers who "blaspheme" are trying to help beleivers to see the delusion they are in. Their motives are often good, even if sometimes their words are blunt. I know God, if he is real would take that into consideration.

What matters is your decision about the gospel.

I'm not that selfish. I have a concern for others too and their wellbeing.

The Bible doesn't exclude judgment of spiritual matters from Christians. While caution is in order, we have this 1 Cor. 11:31 "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." Safety resides in the righteousness of Christ in us.

Again...1 Cor. 6:2-5 "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? [3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? [4] If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. [5] I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?"

And...Romans 16:17 "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."

Without righteous judgment false teachers would abound to the great injury of the Church.

I see you are quoting Paul. I would prefer to go with Jesus's teachings... "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Jesus is quite clear that those who accuse others of sinning are in the wrong. You are accusing people here of blasphemy (which BTW is subjective on your part) Your accusations are no different to those who wanted to stone the adultress and their opinions were not subjective. Jesus is quite clear that on this sort of judging and you are quite clearly in breach of Jesus command.

Whose words do you take more seriously? Jesus's or Paul's?

[OnceConvinced]

The idea God can't forgive those who deny his existence is born purely out of a desire to scare people into churches. You can be forgiven for any sin, because these are actual sins (crimes). These are sins folks may commit, as bad as they are, but they happen. So in order to get you back into church, the Bible allows you to repent, and carry on about your worshiping.

When you reject God's existence, you have taken power away from the priests who profit by spreading 'the word'. Notice in times past this was such a crime as to have you hanged or worse. It is the refutation of God that so scares the priests, and organized religion, not murder, not rape, but saying, "Nah-ah." Only this of the possible sins, all the transgressions, all the evils one could commit, only this sin challenges the priest's power.

This sin, and it only, has the power to empty the churches, and the coffers of those who profit off propagating ancient myth. This is the only sin within the bible for which there is no secular analog.

Only this sin challenges the beliefs of the believer.

Wow! Great post. And a great answer to my questions. Those men who made the "blasphemy" law would have a lot to lose if people took their money and time elsewhere. So it definitely makes sense that they would make "blasphemy" the unforgiveable sin.

I guess too that if WS is right and our blaspheme results in Christians losing faith, then that will mean even more people leaving the service of the church and less money and power for the preists. Being mere mortals (and typical of church leaders we see today), we can safely say they wouldn't have wanted that and would have made any rules they could to stop people from leaving.

More scare tactics to keep people in submission.

[McCulloch]

So even the theists admit that blasphemy is a victimless crime. God, if he exists, is not hurt by it. And the human who commits it, is not hurt by it. So, why is it the unforgivable sin?