Values as a system

[Max Byzantium]

Values do not exist in the same way as this chair or that table exist.

They exist outside the mind, we all know its wrong to torture little children or beat and steal from old helpless people.

Since these values do not originate with us, one could argue the come from the mind of God.

You will quickly counter all values are subjective.

Really, then you agree with the value system of Germany, 1939-1944, the definitive case of a values are subjective gone terribly wrong.

[Quarkhead]

Values do not exist in the same way as this chair or that table exist.

I agree.

They exist outside the mind, we all know its wrong to torture little children or beat and steal from old helpless people.

I completely disagree. Why do we know these things are wrong? Are they innate, or learned? Some values, like beating up old helpless people, seem fairly universal in all cultures. Some values are obviously learned, however - for example, children must be taught to share and to not take away other kids' toys. So are some values "real" and others learned? I doubt it. I think they are all either learned, or develop out of empathy. If someone raised a child to view beating up old people as good, do you think the child would have that value, would know it was wrong? Well, maybe - if he is negatively reinforced by others in his society.

Since these values do not originate with us, one could argue the come from the mind of God.

One could argue that they come from an imaginary bunny that lives on Mars, too.

You will quickly counter all values are subjective.

Yes, indeed. Because they are.

Really, then you agree with the value system of Germany, 1939-1944, the definitive case of a values are subjective gone terribly wrong.

Why? Just because values are subjective, doesn't mean I have to agree with every value system out there! But indeed, Nazi Germany is a good case to point out here. It seems that, right or wrong, they are identifiable evidence that values are indeed subjective. Would so many people have joined the Nazi system if they all knew it was wrong, all the time they were involved with it? I would argue that from within the view of a given value system, those values will seem to be "right."

I do think we can judge value systems as good or bad - but of course the context of good or bad will affect how we judge other value systems. I base my values on empathy and compassion. I see that everyone suffers, everyone grows old, everyone dies, and that leads me to feel empathy and compassion for all sentient beings.

Values are subjective. Yet I feel my own values are correct, and use them to judge other systems. However, I am aware that on a "cosmic" level, it's all quite arbitrary!

[mrmufin]

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mrmufin

[BALLS2WALL]

In the case of Germany they (Hitler) blamed the Jews for the country's poor economic status because the banks and money was controled by Jews. It is also argued that Hitler blamed Jews on not getting into art school because the Jewish judges that judged his work calling it average. Also his mother died under the care of a jewish Doctor.

Now that we have that out the way I think most if it is instinct to have values. Almost any animal has the instinct to protect it's children and care for them. Yes they still fight like us but most travel in pacts to protect it's own kind... nature i guess? I guess it could come from the mind of God.