Could Jesus be Satan?

[Zzyzx]

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According to the bible Satan was "cast down to Earth" – and later a "messiah" shows up claiming to know a great deal about "god", doing "miracles" (supernatural forms of magic), calling himself by the common name Jesus, and is accepted as being "god" (or "son of god") by followers.

Satan, according to lore, is credited with supernatural powers AND a lust for power, a great ego, a deceptive nature, and with being the epitome of evil. As such "he" could easily arrange a "virgin birth", could he not? With supernatural powers couldn't he also walk on water, feed multitudes from a lunchbox, turn water into wine, preach convincingly, and even arrange a "resurrection"?

Since all of that could be done by any competent supernatural being of great power, what is there to insure that Jesus and Satan are not the same being?

One might cite a bible story about Jesus and Satan being in the same place (atop a high mountain), but there were no known witnesses and there is no such mountain (from which all kingdoms of the Earth can be seen from a single point on a sphere). Thus, Satan could well have made up such a story (and in the role of Jesus, tell followers that it had happened – or have them informed by another source).

Couldn't ALL the events attributed to Jesus or God be the actions of a "Satan"? How can one tell for sure which supernatural entity produced what effects?

Couldn't "Satan" arrange for the bible to be written by worshipers / followers / believers? How can anyone be certain that they are not worshiping Satan.

What would be Satan's motivation to create a Jesus character and play the role of "the son of god"? EGO and a desire to be worshipped.

[TMMaria]

I find it interesting that someone would not offer anything for their position, but would insult another for theirs.
Dang you Zyzzx, dang you and your posts I can't disprove.

.

Yes, isn't it interesting that the spirit of insult offers no convincing argument but only serves to discredit the poster...

so what I don't understand is how someone could be voted best debater as to post such an insulting question "Could Jesus be Satan?"

It speaks volumes louder than anything he ever try to say his lack of discernment...he cannot even tell the difference between the good, lovable person of Christ to that deceitful Satan who lied to and led Adam and Eve to outright into disgrace through disobeying their very own Father. I detect took much errors of generalizations and assumptions in his arguments.

Would you call a stranger who deceived your children to rebel against you, the parent, and led them into doing something you prohibit them from doing (like taking drugs and teenage sex) ....good or evil?

Yet, ZZ, (has he been sleeping) cannot tell the kind of sacrificial love that Christ taught and died to demonstrate...is the kind healing that this broken world so badly needed?

What Christ taught elevates us human beings to higher levels of moral beings, while what Satan did led to banishment and humanity living in the kind of original sin that set brother (Cain) killing brother (Abel)...
Yet, he struggle with the question, "Could Jesus be Satan?" How can ZZ be in the dark about who Christ is and who the anti-Christ is?

Maybe Chay's reactions speak louder than words...although, I think it is uncall for and lack restraint of the passions, but ZZ's question ( not ZZ the person) does insult good human intelligence, and shows ignorance of the very Book he's trying to disprove.

All that being said....I still think ZZ is a good sport. As too often times, I find he does forgive me for my trespassing on his comfort zone.

[TMMaria]

I find it interesting that someone would not offer anything for their position, but would insult another for theirs.
Dang you Zyzzx, dang you and your posts I can't disprove.

.

Yes, isn't it interesting that the spirit of insult offers no convincing argument but only serves to discredit the poster...

so what I don't understand is how someone could be voted best debater as to post such an insulting question "Could Jesus be Satan?"

It speaks volumes louder than anything he ever try to say of his lack of discernment...he cannot even tell the difference between the good, lovable person of Christ to that deceitful Satan who lied to and led Adam and Eve to outright into disgrace through disobeying their very own Father. I detect took much errors of generalizations and assumptions in his arguments.

Would you call a stranger who deceived your children to rebel against you, the parent, and led them into doing something you prohibit them from doing (like taking drugs and teenage sex) ....good or evil?

Yet, ZZ, (has he been sleeping) cannot tell the kind of sacrificial love that Christ taught and died to demonstrate...is the kind healing that this broken world so badly needed?

What Christ taught elevates us human beings to higher levels of moral beings, while what Satan did led to banishment and humanity living in the kind of original sin that set brother (Cain) killing brother (Abel)...
Yet, he struggle with the question, "Could Jesus be Satan?" How can ZZ be in the dark about who Christ is and who the anti-Christ is?

Maybe Chay's reactions speak louder than words...although, I think it is uncall for and lack restraint of the passions, but ZZ's question ( not ZZ the person) does insult good human intelligence, and shows ignorance of the very Book he's trying to disprove.

All that being said....I still think ZZ is a good sport. As too often times, I find he does forgive me for my trespassing on his comfort zone.

[Flail]

It is unfortunate,IMO, that Jesus gets all mixed up with Church doctrine and Christianity.Whenever Christians want to support their unfounded doctrine they turn to Jesus wonderful teachings,parables and example.Whenever Christians want to further their inane belief system,idolatry,selfish righteousness and ritual practices they parade Paul or some Pope or holy man or worn out dogma.....There is good reason in the Christian business model for Jesus to be sandwiched between the OT and Paul and why it is common to say "the Bible says' without proper reference....in this way,Jesus can remain obscured within the indoctrinations of the Church.

Jesus is not a Christian

[MagusYanam]

I don't think Zzyzx is trying to be insulting with this question. Having debated with him numerous times on this forum, I know he can be edgy and doesn't have a lot of patience with those who don't back up their arguments, but he doesn't go out of his way to give grief to those who can back up their assertions.

That said, though, the reasoning behind his question I think seems a little awkward. Evil is subtle; someone trying to advance evil would probably try to appear as someone or something plausible, someone or something who could put on the plausible face of goodness, to cynically manipulate people who want to think themselves to be righteous by assuring them that they are already and do not need to examine themselves. The greatest evils perpetrated by mankind have been those committed by people who felt that what they were doing was absolutely right and needn't be questioned.

I don't think Jesus ever really encouraged this kind of complacency. Indeed, far from encouraging his own followers of their rightness, he kept them on their toes with parables that led them to question - is what I am doing right? I think there are some of Jesus' teachings that all Christians should have difficulty with - and if there are not, then obviously they haven't been reading closely enough. How many of us can say that we love our enemies and hate our parents? How many of us can deal with the father at the wedding feast who threw out a guest because the guest wouldn't answer him? How many of us can say we are completely copasetic with a landowner who hires his tenants at all hours of the day, and paid each the same regardless of how long they worked?

[TMMaria]

I don't think Zzyzx is trying to be insulting with this question. Having debated with him numerous times on this forum, I know he can be edgy and doesn't have a lot of patience with those who don't back up their arguments, but he doesn't go out of his way to give grief to those who can back up their assertions.

That said, though, the reasoning behind his question I think seems a little awkward. Evil is subtle; someone trying to advance evil would probably try to appear as someone or something plausible, someone or something who could put on the plausible face of goodness, to cynically manipulate people who want to think themselves to be righteous by assuring them that they are already and do not need to examine themselves. The greatest evils perpetrated by mankind have been those committed by people who felt that what they were doing was absolutely right and needn't be questioned.

Have you not notice how many times Jesus direct has righteous anger at the hypocrites, the pretend to be good Pharisees? Have you not notice the righteous anger He directed at the business practice of using "the Worship of God" into forced selling oppurtunities of lambs and offerings at the Temple at cutthroat prices? So what would you think Jesus would say to the "greatest evils" of "someone trying to advance evil would probably try to appear as someone or something plausible, someone or something who could put on the plausible face of goodness, to cynically manipulate people who want to think themselves to be righteous by assuring them that they are already and do not need to examine themselves."

I don't think Jesus ever really encouraged this kind of complacency.

No, He doesn't..."Stay alert...Be awake..." is His message for Judgment can come as a thief in the night; you won't know when your time is up.

I think there are some of Jesus' teachings that all Christians should have difficulty with - and if there are not, then obviously they haven't been reading closely enough. How many of us can say that we love our enemies and hate our parents?

It's easy to love your enemies when you change your perception...that human being you see as your enemy is actually your own brother and sister enslaved by sin. It's easy to love when you realize all of us human beings are brothers and sisters coming from the same parents, we are one human family, "We are One Body in the Lord."

No where does the Bible calls for us to hate our parents. In fact, in the Ten Commandment we are called to: Honor thy parents.

If you get a different message from "Honor thy parent", that's because you missed the context in your readings, Christ's context and warning of "brother against brothers, parents against child" refers to this: when you embrace Christ as your Savior...there will be those who would persecute you, they can be your own brother, your own sister, your own spouse, your own parent who hates you what you believe...because they are enslaved by the spirits that hates Christ first. Christ's comfort to them is: bear your trials with perseverance and love as I love....so He bore the pains and death inflicted upon Him with patience to demonstrate sacrificial love.

How many of us can deal with the father at the wedding feast who threw out a guest because the guest wouldn't answer him?

Again, you missed the context....a guest who would show up to a wedding feast of that of in Important Person as the King should show respect and honor and properly dressed himself (and his soul)in cleanliness. But that disrespectful, prideful attendee showing up in filth and stink will be thrown out. Get His message: When it comes the attending the wedding feast of His Royal Highness...there are standards of cleanliness you are expect to follow. So don't be so complacent and start adorning and robe your soul in cleanliness.

How many of us can say we are completely copasetic with a landowner who hires his tenants at all hours of the day, and paid each the same regardless of how long they worked?

When your eyes are set on Love, you'll be delighted at how generous this Landowner is. From His own treasury, He'd be so generous in giving someone more than their fair share like that.

This merciful Landowner also does not put up with petty pride and envy....Enough of that judging one's worth by seniority, or title, or status....Enough of that envy at someone else and how they get pay their wage....Instead if it's about Love and humility, get rid of your envy, and be delighted that your brothers and sisters also receive the fullness of wage....Love delights in goodness...one should be delighted that others receive more goodness, even if it is more than your share.

[TMMaria]

It is unfortunate,IMO, that Jesus gets all mixed up with Church doctrine and Christianity.Whenever Christians want to support their unfounded doctrine they turn to Jesus wonderful teachings,parables and example.Whenever Christians want to further their inane belief system,idolatry,selfish righteousness and ritual practices they parade Paul or some Pope or holy man or worn out dogma.....There is good reason in the Christian business model for Jesus to be sandwiched between the OT and Paul and why it is common to say "the Bible says' without proper reference....in this way,Jesus can remain obscured within the indoctrinations of the Church.

Jesus is not a Christian

And I recognize your goodness in recognizing the types of hypocrites and Pharisees that angers Christ ... Christ saw these modern day hypocrites just as He saw those hypocrites of His days.

No, Jesus isn't a Christian. Jesus founded Christianity, but He realized the Christians would not be able to live His teachings perfectly in their current fallen human nature. Even though once they accept Him as Savior, they won't be separate from this world to be with Him in that New Jerusalem but would have to live the rest of their earthly life in the midst of this dark war-torned world. They will fall from their path, and get back to it again, and fall from it seventy times seventy times....but as long as they keep their eyes on the Goal...and journey forward He will fill in where they fall short.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 8 Post 71

so what I don't understand is how someone could be voted best debater as to post such an insulting question "Could Jesus be Satan?"

As some are allowed to claim atheists hold God beliefs, I can't help but think what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
The Bible says we are fallible. It is printed by us fallible humans. Satan, according to the Bible, is a deceiver. If we follow this then the OP is a legitimate question.

It speaks volumes louder than anything he ever try to say his lack of discernment...he cannot even tell the difference between the good, lovable person of Christ to that deceitful Satan who lied to and led Adam and Eve to outright into disgrace through disobeying their very own Father. I detect took much errors of generalizations and assumptions in his arguments.

But how can we verify this? Again, the Bible claims we are fallible, Satan's the deceiver. It is not illogical to then question ourselves as it relates to the very Book we print.

Would you call a stranger who deceived your children to rebel against you, the parent, and led them into doing something you prohibit them from doing (like taking drugs and teenage sex) ....good or evil?

As I am guilty of both of these, I hope I would not pass judgement on others, but seek to inform them of the consequences.

What Christ taught elevates us human beings to higher levels of moral beings, while what Satan did led to banishment and humanity living in the kind of original sin that set brother (Cain) killing brother (Abel)...
Yet, he struggle with the question, "Could Jesus be Satan?" How can ZZ be in the dark about who Christ is and who the anti-Christ is?

This is the kind of judgement I'm talking about. Many religious folks claim they have a higher moral position because they believe a book that can't be shown to be true. They believe a book that tells us we are all sinners, and thus immoral to the core.

Maybe Chay's reactions speak louder than words...although, I think it is uncall for and lack restraint of the passions, but ZZ's question ( not ZZ the person) does insult good human intelligence, and shows ignorance of the very Book he's trying to disprove.

Again, when some theists are allowed to proclaim atheists hold god beliefs, in total disregard to the definition of atheism how does questioning, in a debate forum, insult "good human intelligence"?
How, when some can throw away the very definitions of words, is that okay, but to ask legitimate questions is somehow insulting?

The book humans print tells us we are fallible, full of sin, and all kinds of what not. It tells us Satan is a deceiver. How, in our fallibility, are we to determine the facts if we don't ask the questions?

[TMMaria]

What Christ taught elevates us human beings to higher levels of moral beings, while what Satan did led to banishment and humanity living in the kind of original sin that set brother (Cain) killing brother (Abel)...
Yet, he struggle with the question, "Could Jesus be Satan?" How can ZZ be in the dark about who Christ is and who the anti-Christ is?

This is the kind of judgement I'm talking about. Many religious folks claim they have a higher moral position because they believe a book that can't be shown to be true. They believe a book that tells us we are all sinners, and thus immoral to the core.

[/quote]

Again, you are good to recognize the spirit of pride seen in "Many religious folks [who] claim they have a higher moral position because they believe a book." No man is without sins. Only He, the Lord, is Holy and without sin. It would be pride to think once one believe one gets to a higher moral position. Perhaps, but can one stay there...or be prepare to take a fall. We recognize that even believers in their human nature still can fall from their path...so how moral are you once you took a fall? Temptations, remember, exempt no one...they even tempt Christ the Lord. In fact, the believer knows that the more you cling to the Lord, the greater the temptations...and the great virtue one must cultivate is greater humility, for one knows one is capable of the greater fall.

We are all sinners unless you can produce to me proof of one person that doesn't sin: the sins of pride, malice, hate, unrighteous anger, envy, impurity, ... Yet, Christ's message is we can rise above all that, or else why He would call us to: "Be holy...as the Father, [the origin of your being], is Holy."

The book humans print tells us we are fallible, full of sin, and all kinds of what not. It tells us Satan is a deceiver. How, in our fallibility, are we to determine the facts if we don't ask the questions?

Humans can print any words...but the Words spoken from the mouth of God is what we are interested in. Jesus spoke Words...that teach us to be moral beings. There is natural laws of goodness engraved in our conscience. Although, humanity has inherited original sin, time has not erase God's image in us...in God's image we are capable of knowing the difference between good and evil. Good fruits from bad fruits...or else why God's words to us is: "Know the tree by the fruits." We are able to reason, and to know. Human societies since ancient times has laws that distinguish good from bad....and punish the bad guys and detaining them from inflictng their evil onto society at large...

In our fallibility, we still have the ablity to live and learn, to discern the difference between good and bad, right and wrong, the higher laws vs lesser laws.

[MagusYanam]

Have you not notice how many times Jesus direct has righteous anger at the hypocrites, the pretend to be good Pharisees? Have you not notice the righteous anger He directed at the business practice of using "the Worship of God" into forced selling oppurtunities of lambs and offerings at the Temple at cutthroat prices? So what would you think Jesus would say to the "greatest evils" of "someone trying to advance evil would probably try to appear as someone or something plausible, someone or something who could put on the plausible face of goodness, to cynically manipulate people who want to think themselves to be righteous by assuring them that they are already and do not need to examine themselves."

Yep. The people who told themselves they were righteous and because they were blinded in this rode roughshod over the poor and needy. I wasn't saying Jesus was such a person at all - indeed, he reserved his harshest language for the scribes and the Pharisees.

It's easy to love your enemies when you change your perception...that human being you see as your enemy is actually your own brother and sister enslaved by sin. It's easy to love when you realize all of us human beings are brothers and sisters coming from the same parents, we are one human family, "We are One Body in the Lord."

No where does the Bible calls for us to hate our parents. In fact, in the Ten Commandment we are called to: Honor thy parents.

You ought to study Scripture more carefully.

Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

This is what it says. It's not easy and it goes contrary to our instincts, but it is something we Christians ought to deal with and struggle with. We cannot let ourselves become complacent, but challenge everything, even our perceptions of worldly relationships. We have to be constantly asking ourselves what being a follower of Christ means, even if it isn't easy.

Again, you missed the context....a guest who would show up to a wedding feast of that of in Important Person as the King should show respect and honor and properly dressed himself (and his soul)in cleanliness. But that disrespectful, prideful attendee showing up in filth and stink will be thrown out. Get His message: When it comes the attending the wedding feast of His Royal Highness...there are standards of cleanliness you are expect to follow. So don't be so complacent and start adorning and robe your soul in cleanliness.

This is the passage:

But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing a wedding robe, and he said to him, “Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding robe?� And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, “Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.� For many are called, but few are chosen.

It wasn't because the man was dressed poorly that he was thrown out. If it had merely been because he was dressed poorly, would the king have come up to him and addressed him as 'friend'? It was not solely because the man was dressed poorly, but because, for whatever reason, the man had no answer for the king when he was 'called'. I think it is worth note also that Jesus did not strain after cleanliness and perfection in his followers, who ate with prostitutes and lepers without washing their hands, but rather grace and kindness. Instead of worrying about our own purity, would it not be better to answer in grace and kindness whatever call we might receive?

I'm not saying this is the right answer, but we can't be complacent about finding the right answer.

When your eyes are set on Love, you'll be delighted at how generous this Landowner is. From His own treasury, He'd be so generous in giving someone more than their fair share like that.

This merciful Landowner also does not put up with petty pride and envy....Enough of that judging one's worth by seniority, or title, or status....Enough of that envy at someone else and how they get pay their wage....Instead if it's about Love and humility, get rid of your envy, and be delighted that your brothers and sisters also receive the fullness of wage....Love delights in goodness...one should be delighted that others receive more goodness, even if it is more than your share.

That's all well and good, but love takes practise. Love's not just something that you set your eyes on, but it takes a kind of spiritual discipline. It's an easy yoke and a light burden, and it is incredibly fulfilling, but it's still something one must work at (though knowing that we will always, without the grace of God, fall short of the ideal).

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 8 Post 79

>my bolding<
That's all well and good, but love takes practise. Love's not just something that you set your eyes on, but it takes a kind of spiritual discipline. It's an easy yoke and a light burden, and it is incredibly fulfilling, but it's still something one must work at (though knowing that we will always, without the grace of God, fall short of the ideal).

Please prove the bolded claim or retract it. Please refer to forum rule #5.

This is just another way for Christians to try to claim superiority for their beliefs without proving them. It's an insulting insinuation that non-believers are somehow lesser, somehow incapable of love or a 'complete' love.