Could Jesus be Satan?

[Zzyzx]

.
According to the bible Satan was "cast down to Earth" – and later a "messiah" shows up claiming to know a great deal about "god", doing "miracles" (supernatural forms of magic), calling himself by the common name Jesus, and is accepted as being "god" (or "son of god") by followers.

Satan, according to lore, is credited with supernatural powers AND a lust for power, a great ego, a deceptive nature, and with being the epitome of evil. As such "he" could easily arrange a "virgin birth", could he not? With supernatural powers couldn't he also walk on water, feed multitudes from a lunchbox, turn water into wine, preach convincingly, and even arrange a "resurrection"?

Since all of that could be done by any competent supernatural being of great power, what is there to insure that Jesus and Satan are not the same being?

One might cite a bible story about Jesus and Satan being in the same place (atop a high mountain), but there were no known witnesses and there is no such mountain (from which all kingdoms of the Earth can be seen from a single point on a sphere). Thus, Satan could well have made up such a story (and in the role of Jesus, tell followers that it had happened – or have them informed by another source).

Couldn't ALL the events attributed to Jesus or God be the actions of a "Satan"? How can one tell for sure which supernatural entity produced what effects?

Couldn't "Satan" arrange for the bible to be written by worshipers / followers / believers? How can anyone be certain that they are not worshiping Satan.

What would be Satan's motivation to create a Jesus character and play the role of "the son of god"? EGO and a desire to be worshipped.

[LittlePig]

What Christ taught elevates us human beings to higher levels of moral beings, while what Satan did led to banishment and humanity living in the kind of original sin that set brother (Cain) killing brother (Abel)...
Yet, he struggle with the question, "Could Jesus be Satan?" How can ZZ be in the dark about who Christ is and who the anti-Christ is?

I think when we come to a place of debate where we confront people with views 180° from our own, we have to leave our tender hearts and the 'Do not walk on the sacred grass' signs at home. That's not to say that we should seek to be insulting, but it's a little silly to expect other people to think and feel as we do.

IMO everyone is in the dark about Jesus, including you, TMMaria. Jesus started off as a small speck of sand that centuries have turned into a pearl. Layer upon foggy layer of assumption, misunderstanding, and faith-friendly hype has been piled on a character that is, at best, mostly invisible to us.

Unless you buy into the entire traditional (orthodox) picture of Jesus, it's hard to say what he was really all about. But even if you do accept the standard 4 gospels as a good picture, there are parts that don't sit well with the beautific pastoral scenes so common in church.

For example, did you realize that, unless you are a Jew, Jesus would have considered you a dog?

Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Jesus is often portrayed as requiring faith prior to healing, but here he is almost unwilling to help this woman. You can interpret that story in a lot of different ways. But, however you work it, Jesus places greater importance and value on Jews, and less value on Gentiles. Even today, with our friendlier relations with dogs, children are much more valuable than pets. In the Bible, being called a dog is no compliment.

Is this the Jesus you know?

How about Jesus the violent reformer?

How about the Jesus who intended his disciples to rule over a newly powerful nation of Israel?

How about Jesus the mystic?

What is interesting about this thread, especially considering the information melodious has presented, is that Jesus was a figure that inspired many interpretations. Considering the more mystical sayings of Jesus, it's no wonder that Gnostics latched onto him as a 'satanic' or usurping figure rather than the messiah expected by the Jews. The majority of the Jews apparently didn't consider him a proper messiah either.

[MagusYanam]

Please prove the bolded claim or retract it. Please refer to forum rule #5.

This is just another way for Christians to try to claim superiority for their beliefs without proving them. It's an insulting insinuation that non-believers are somehow lesser, somehow incapable of love or a 'complete' love.

I wasn't claiming superiority over anyone. It's simply that I've never met anyone - Christian or not - who was capable of perfect and ideal behaviour, who had an attitude of perfect, universal love and understanding without having to work at it at all. We all fall short of the ideal, Christian and non-Christian. The most any of us can do is to strive for that ideal and get the world a little closer to it.

[TMMaria]

It's easy to love your enemies when you change your perception...that human being you see as your enemy is actually your own brother and sister enslaved by sin. It's easy to love when you realize all of us human beings are brothers and sisters coming from the same parents, we are one human family, "We are One Body in the Lord."

No where does the Bible calls for us to hate our parents. In fact, in the Ten Commandment we are called to: Honor thy parents.

You ought to study Scripture more carefully.

Thanks for your reminder. I have. I agree when it comes to studying Scripture more carefully, one must and should read and reread and cross reference, and double check the context by reading the verses before and after.


In your previous post, when you said, "I think there are some of Jesus' teachings that all Christians should have difficulty with - and if there are not, then obviously they haven't been reading closely enough. How many of us can say that we love our enemies and hate our parents?"

I thought you meant to say Jesus would teach us to hate our parents....hate (180 degrees in contrast to love) as in that evil of malicious desire of wishing harm on our parents. So, my response would be absolutely not, because God calls us to such lofty transcendental level of love, that not only are we to love those who deserved to be loved but also those who don't deserve to be love, as in our enemies.

Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

This is what it says. It's not easy and it goes contrary to our instincts, but it is something we Christians ought to deal with and struggle with. We cannot let ourselves become complacent, but challenge everything, even our perceptions of worldly relationships. We have to be constantly asking ourselves what being a follower of Christ means, even if it isn't easy.

I see what context in which you meant to quote Luke 14:26 now and I agree with you...it may not always be the easiest road.

And just so our unbelievers does not take Luke14:26 in the wrong way or in any take it to contradict the law of "Honor thy parents...:"

The greatest Commandment happens to be: Love God with all your heart, all your being, all your mind, all your soul...love one another.

What happens when the loving one another keeps you from the total dedication, total commitment require in the first part of the Commandment?

Luke 14:26 as well as Matthew 10:37 calls for the total dedication, total commitment to loving God overrides any attachments to family, self, or possessions. When any earthly attachments stand in your way of Loving God...Love God even if it is in the face of persecution and death. Yet as you notice the verses before Luke 14:26, the excuses the invited ones had to avoid coming to dine in the Kingdom of God. "I have purchased this, I have purchased that, I've just married..." also, "I have to fulfill my filial obligation of burying the dead..."

and in Matthew 10:37 it is stated differently but shows where the total dedication should be, should earthly attachments is in conflict with you following God.

37 "Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
38and whoever does not take up his cross 15 and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

So in a real life example, a friend of mine is married to a Christian, and they attend worship, retreats, and pilgrimmage together. This man lives a Christian life, but has not been able to make it to the baptismal fount to receive the Holy Spirit...why? His mother practices another religion and it would anger her greatly if he abandons his ancestral faith. So it kept him in bondage from being totally be able to give himself freely to the Lord.

Again, you missed the context....a guest who would show up to a wedding feast of that of in Important Person as the King should show respect and honor and properly dressed himself (and his soul)in cleanliness. But that disrespectful, prideful attendee showing up in filth and stink will be thrown out. Get His message: When it comes the attending the wedding feast of His Royal Highness...there are standards of cleanliness you are expect to follow. So don't be so complacent and start adorning and robe your soul in cleanliness.

This is the passage:

But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing a wedding robe, and he said to him, “Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding robe?� And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, “Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.� For many are called, but few are chosen.

It wasn't because the man was dressed poorly that he was thrown out. If it had merely been because he was dressed poorly, would the king have come up to him and addressed him as 'friend'? It was not solely because the man was dressed poorly, but because, for whatever reason, the man had no answer for the king when he was 'called'. I think it is worth note also that Jesus did not strain after cleanliness and perfection in his followers, who ate with prostitutes and lepers without washing their hands, but rather grace and kindness. Instead of worrying about our own purity, would it not be better to answer in grace and kindness whatever call we might receive?

I see where our attention to details differ: I look at not wearing wedding robe as outward evidence of the inner condition of the soul which has disrespect for the king, while you take the nonaction of his speechlessness as the outer evidence. But we don't differ...while you and I may look at actions and speech, but God sees the condition of the soul...it's the cleanliness and purity of the soul that I was referring to. And I agree with you that nothing can give the soul greater beauty than grace and kindness could.

[Lacuesta]

Would Satan sacrifice himself on the cross for all of humanity? One attribute of love is sacrifice - could satan, who is evil, be sacrificial, therefore loving?

[TMMaria]

From Page 8 Post 79

>my bolding<
That's all well and good, but love takes practise. Love's not just something that you set your eyes on, but it takes a kind of spiritual discipline. It's an easy yoke and a light burden, and it is incredibly fulfilling, but it's still something one must work at (though knowing that we will always, without the grace of God, fall short of the ideal).

Please prove the bolded claim or retract it. Please refer to forum rule #5.

This is just another way for Christians to try to claim superiority for their beliefs without proving them. It's an insulting insinuation that non-believers are somehow lesser, somehow incapable of love or a 'complete' love.

Actually Joey, by not adding "we will always, without the grace of God, fall short of the ideal" is claiming superiority. By adding it, he acknowledge with humility that all of us on our own fall short of glory....no one should boast that he was able to climb the mount of sanctity on his own and that is his superiority...

By adding with the Grace of God, he is acknowledging that a believer is in the same lowliness of condition, when compared to God, as the unbeliever...only grace can lift him up. But you see, so that a believer may not boast, God extend His graces of charity to both believers and nonbelievers...A nonbeliever is also capable of sacrificial love and highest ideals of love. But of the three virtues: Faith, Love, and Hope...a nonbeliever may have love for others, but if he lack faith how can he respond to God's love with total dedication: to love God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul...

to get to that transcendental level of Love of God you have to have the gift of Faith....as for those who have the gift of Faith that can move mountains but does not Love, than he still has nothing. If he gives away everything he owns, and if he hands his body over so that he may boast of his great sanctity, but do not have love, he gains nothing.

[TMMaria]

Would Satan sacrifice himself on the cross for all of humanity? One attribute of love is sacrifice - could satan, who is evil, be sacrificial, therefore loving?

But also, note how Satan would be different from Jesus...should he ever put on the display of sacrificing himself for humanity, he still would not point us to God nor tells humanity to call God, "Our Father" nor gently remind humanity to ask God to give us the Holy Spirit. Such deception would not last and in time the truth shall be brought to light.


It wouldn't be in character with Satan's lust for self-glorification to point us to love God. Instead, he'd want to take God's place. In function, his deception is to get us under his power, to serve him as the master...


But Jesus points us to His Father. "Do not call Me good, " He said, "Only God the Father is Good." Jesus acknowledge He is begotten from God the Father, the Supreme Being from Whom all come into being. Jesus is our Mediator. The whole point of Jesus dying on the cross is to bring us reconciliation to God the Father, from Whom all goodness flows...so Jesus acknowledge it would be God, our Father who deserves all our love and praise. The Truth Jesus bring about God the Father is eternal in nature.

[JoeyKnothead]

MagusYanam & TMMaria,

In reading your responses I see I jumped the gun a bit. Please accept my apologies. I tend to read more into some posts than maybe what is there. I know I do it, I try not to, but danged if I don't keep doing it.

Again, I was wrong and I apologize, but please don't let others read this reply.

[Zzyzx]

.

Would Satan sacrifice himself on the cross for all of humanity? One attribute of love is sacrifice - could satan, who is evil, be sacrificial, therefore loving?

"Sacrifice himself on the cross" has no meaning to a supernatural being whose "death" is temporary. It would mean no more that a super being "Satan" did a sham death than for a super being "Jesus" to have done so -- if any such thing happened at all.

No one knows for certain that "sacrifice himself on the cross" by a super being happened in reality. Some believe stories in ancient writings by people promoting a new religion. Nothing outside their writings verifies the stories. Humans are known to be deceived or deceitful in promotion of ideas they favor – including religion.

Of course, a powerful and deceptive "Satan" could cause the "bible" to be written as though such a thing had happened, whether it had or not. No one would know if the story was real -- just as is true now. Some THINK they know, but that is "faith" rather than knowledge.

Nothing that has been said so far in this thread is anything that a clever "Satan" could not have managed. Therefore, no one knows if they are actually worshiping a "god" or a "devil".

[Goat]

Would Satan sacrifice himself on the cross for all of humanity? One attribute of love is sacrifice - could satan, who is evil, be sacrificial, therefore loving?

Would Satan trick people into trying to convince people that he was sacrificed , when no such sacrifice happened? Could a powerful being such as Christians see Satan as fool people into seeing something other than they thought they saw?

Or, for that matter, into believing stories they heard that were false?

[Goat]

From Page 8 Post 79

>my bolding<
That's all well and good, but love takes practise. Love's not just something that you set your eyes on, but it takes a kind of spiritual discipline. It's an easy yoke and a light burden, and it is incredibly fulfilling, but it's still something one must work at (though knowing that we will always, without the grace of God, fall short of the ideal).

Please prove the bolded claim or retract it. Please refer to forum rule #5.

This is just another way for Christians to try to claim superiority for their beliefs without proving them. It's an insulting insinuation that non-believers are somehow lesser, somehow incapable of love or a 'complete' love.

Actually Joey, by not adding "we will always, without the grace of God, fall short of the ideal" is claiming superiority. By adding it, he acknowledge with humility that all of us on our own fall short of glory....no one should boast that he was able to climb the mount of sanctity on his own and that is his superiority...

By adding with the Grace of God, he is acknowledging that a believer is in the same lowliness of condition, when compared to God, as the unbeliever...only grace can lift him up. But you see, so that a believer may not boast, God extend His graces of charity to both believers and nonbelievers...A nonbeliever is also capable of sacrificial love and highest ideals of love. But of the three virtues: Faith, Love, and Hope...a nonbeliever may have love for others, but if he lack faith how can he respond to God's love with total dedication: to love God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul...

to get to that transcendental level of Love of God you have to have the gift of Faith....as for those who have the gift of Faith that can move mountains but does not Love, than he still has nothing. If he gives away everything he owns, and if he hands his body over so that he may boast of his great sanctity, but do not have love, he gains nothing.

Part of the whole Christian mentality is Christians DO have the 'Grace of God', and they are denying that others do not. It is the whole very annoying 'Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven' attitude that implies that other people are do not not have 'grace' nor are they forgiven.