Is the God of the Bible loving? --- OnceConvinced vs Drs

[OnceConvinced]

Thanks to Drs for taking up my challenge to a head to head debate on whether God is the God of love the bible claims him to be. This is certainly my first time doing a Head to head debate, although Drs and I have already been sort of doing that in another thread. Of course this one will be more carefully moderated.

I expect one of the moderators will start a thread where other members can comment on the debate as it goes, so please do comment.

Drs and I have both agreed that the bible should be used as an accurate source of information to gain examples to support our arguments. Therefore we take the position that the Bible God exists and the acts he has done in the bible did happen.

We have not limited out posts, but we will try to keep focussed on a few points at a time.

We will be looking at the following attributes that the bible/God tells us are “love�. We will then debate whether God displays these attributes himself. The list I have is as follows: (Drs may wish to add other attributes to this list if I have missed any).

Meet the needs of those without (feeding, protection and clothing, etc)
(Matt 25:31-46 Romans 12:9-21 1 John 3: 17- 18 and many others)

Being willing to lay down your life (John 15:13)

There is no fear in love –(1 John 4:18)

1 Cor 13:4-8
It does not envy
It does not boast/ not proud
It is not rude
It is not self-seeking.
It is not easily angered
It keeps no record of wrongs.
It always trusts
It always perseveres/ long suffering – bears all things

Of course I will be taking the stance that God is not loving based on these attributes, while Drs will take the stance that he is.

[OnceConvinced]

I’d first like to eliminate two of those attributes from the debate.

1) It is not proud.

I think you and I have already debated enough about whether God is proud or not. So I don’t think we need to go there in this debate.

2) It always trusts

Trust would be something an omniscient being would not have. He knows exactly what we are going to do before we do it. Trust to me would be an attribute someone would need to have if they did not know what the outcome would be. Therefore it is not applicable when it comes to God.

Would you agree that we can strike these two from the debate?

I propose now that we each choose one or two attribute to start with and debate from there.

I’d like to chose two that sort of go hand in hand.

It always perseveres/ Takes no records of wrongs

The bible states that God loves everyone. The whole world, not just his elect. (John 3:16) Therefore these attributes must apply to every being that ever existed on this planet.

Secondly there is no scripture that states his love ceases the day we die. So therefore his love must still persevere. However come Judgement Day that love ceases to persevere and his wrath kicks in. Not only that but everyone is going to have to give an account of all the bad things done in their life. (Mat 12:36) And is God going to have a list? Of course he is. He’s going to know every dirty little kinky little thing you’ve ever done. In fact the bible says he will have a book that lists all your dirty little sins. (Rev 20:12) Why not a computer? I don’t know, I guess God didn’t know about computers back then when the bible was written. But is that not taking a record of wrongs? Is not the day he has his angels hurl all who reject him into the lake of fire for eternal suffering, going to be the day he ceases to love us? (Mat 13:40-42) He certainly cannot claim to love us while at the same time having us barbequing for all eternity.

One may say that if you are saved, you will not have to face this judgement. And according to the bible you would be right, but the fact is the majority of mankind will. (Mat 7:13-14) If God claims to love these people, then he is quite clearly violating his own rules of love by judging them, showing them all that they have done and having them hurled into the eternal torture pit where his presence will no longer be, let alone his love.


Further evidence that God keeps records of wrongs, is the fact that he curses entire generations for the acts of one person. The best known curse is pain of child birth in the book of Genesis, but also note the one in Exodus that punishes your descendents if you worship false Gods (Ex 20:4). God obviously doesn’t forget and certainly holds grudges.

So here we can see that God’s love does not persevere except for those that love him back (certainly not the unconditional love he claims to possess). We also see that God does indeed keep records of wrong doings.

Scripture references:


Rev 20:12

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Mat 12:36

"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.


Mat 13:40-42:
Just as the weeds are separated out and burned, so it will be at the end of the world. I, the Son of Man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Ex 20:4
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,


Mat 7:13-14

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[drs]

I’d first like to eliminate two of those attributes from the debate.

1) It is not proud.

I think you and I have already debated enough about whether God is proud or not. So I don’t think we need to go there in this debate.

2) It always trusts

Trust would be something an omniscient being would not have. He knows exactly what we are going to do before we do it. Trust to me would be an attribute someone would need to have if they did not know what the outcome would be. Therefore it is not applicable when it comes to God.

Would you agree that we can strike these two from the debate?

First let me Thank you for inviting me to this debate.

And yes I believe we can elimanate these two attributes.

I propose now that we each choose one or two attribute to start with and debate from there.

I will debate the attributes you have chosen.

I’d like to chose two that sort of go hand in hand.

It always perseveres/ Takes no records of wrongs

The bible states that God loves everyone. The whole world, not just his elect. (John 3:16) Therefore these attributes must apply to every being that ever existed on this planet.

First I would like to refute your meaning of John 3:16.

The meaning of world in 3:16 refers to those who will believe in CHRIST.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 2889&t=KJV


Please note 8b (of believers only 3:16 and 3:17)



kosmos - world



1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19





We must take the entire passage to get the proper meaning.


verse 3-8 CHRIST explains to Nicodemous that unless one is born again he can not see or enter the Kingdom of GOD.

verse 9 Nicodemous still does not understand

verse 10 CHRIST questions Nicodemous, how can you be a teacher of Israel and not understand?

verse 11-12 CHRIST says He knows what He speaks, and how can He tell Nicodemous Heavenly things if he will not believe earthly things

verse 13-15 CHRIST says no one has asscended to Heaven but Him and as Moses lifted up the serpent so must CHRIST be lifted up(the crucifiction) that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Verse 16-17 CHRIST is clearly speaking about those who will believe in Him(not the entire population of the world)

verse 18 Clearly shows he who believes is not condemned but he who does not is condemned already

verse 19-20 explains the condemnation, The light(CHRIST) has come into the world and men love darkness and evil and would rather continue practicing and living in sin instead of coming to the light(CHRIST) in repentance.


John 3 (New King James Version)

John 3
The New Birth
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.�
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.�
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?�
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.�
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?�
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.�

Secondly there is no scripture that states his love ceases the day we die. So therefore his love must still persevere. However come Judgement Day that love ceases to persevere and his wrath kicks in. Not only that but everyone is going to have to give an account of all the bad things done in their life. (Mat 12:36) And is God going to have a list? Of course he is. He’s going to know every dirty little kinky little thing you’ve ever done. In fact the bible says he will have a book that lists all your dirty little sins. (Rev 20:12) Why not a computer? I don’t know, I guess God didn’t know about computers back then when the bible was written. But is that not taking a record of wrongs? Is not the day he has his angels hurl all who reject him into the lake of fire for eternal suffering, going to be the day he ceases to love us?

All who are reborn in CHRIST past, present and future, GOD'S love will preserve them for all time.

And as for record of wrongs, all who repent will be given a clean slate and a new life in CHRIST

verse 17 their sins I will remember no more.


Hebrews 10

Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,�[c] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.�[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

.(Mat 13:40-42) He certainly cannot claim to love us while at the same time having us barbequing for all eternity

This parable explained clearly shows two kinds of seed in the world and also who sows them.

verse 38 good seeds - sons of the Kingdom, sowed by CHRIST
tares - sons of the wicked one (the devil)


verse 41-42 So we see that many people in the world are seeds sown by Satan and will be thrown in the furnace (judgment in Rev 20:11-15)


I do not see any claim that GOD will love the seeds sown by the devil and not judge them.


Matthew 13

The Parable of the Tares Explained

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.�
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

One may say that if you are saved, you will not have to face this judgement. And according to the bible you would be right, but the fact is the majority of mankind will. (Mat 7:13-14) If God claims to love these people, then he is quite clearly violating his own rules of love by judging them, showing them all that they have done and having them hurled into the eternal torture pit where his presence will no longer be, let alone his love.

GOD is violating no rules.

I do not see any claims of eternal love for these people that do not repent and continualy do evil in the sight of GOD.

Those who will be judged and sent to eternal prison are those that love darkness and evil.(John 3:19)(the tares Matt 13:38)

Also we see that GOD hates those who do evil(the wicked) which refutes the bible says that GOD loves everyone.

verse 5 But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

verse 6 speaks of judgment of the wicked.



Psalm 11 (New King James Version)

Psalm 11
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
1 In the LORD I put my trust;
How can you say to my soul,
“Flee as a bird to your mountain�?
2 For look! The wicked bend their bow,
They make ready their arrow on the string,
That they may shoot secretly at the upright in heart.
3 If the foundations are destroyed,
What can the righteous do?

4 The LORD is in His holy temple,
The LORD’s throne is in heaven;
His eyes behold,
His eyelids test the sons of men.
5 The LORD tests the righteous,
But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
6 Upon the wicked He will rain coals;
Fire and brimstone and a burning wind
Shall be the portion of their cup.

7 For the LORD is righteous,
He loves righteousness;
His countenance beholds the upright.[a]

Further evidence that God keeps records of wrongs, is the fact that he curses entire generations for the acts of one person. The best known curse is pain of child birth in the book of Genesis,

This was punishment for disobediance and with the curse came the prophecy that CHRIST would defeat Satan

verse 15

Her seed and your seed (Matthew 13:36-43)

Her(CHRIST'S) seed - Sons of the Kingdom (good seed)
Your(Satan's) seed sons of the wicked one (The tares)

CHRIST shall bruise Satans head(defeat at the cross)
Satan shall bruise CHRIST'S heal(temporarily aggravate untill final judgment)




14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“ Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.�
16 To the woman He said:
“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.�

but also note the one in Exodus that punishes your descendents if you worship false Gods (Ex 20:4). God obviously doesn’t forget and certainly holds grudges.

We see here in Deuteronmy 24:16 that a person shall be put to death for their own sins not those of their fathers.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (New King James Version)
16 “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.


The meaning in Exodus is. Children will suffer because of the evil their fathers did in the sight of GOD.

Example The parents turned away from GOD to follow fasle gods, so by doing this when they have children the parents will teach thier children to serve false gods which in turn will bring judgment on them and thier children after, so long as they continued in this evil way.


Exodus 20
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

So here we can see that God’s love does not preserve except for those that love him back (certainly not the unconditional love he claims to possess). We also see that God does indeed keep records of wrong doings.

We have seen that those who are reborn in CHRIST, GOD will remember their sins no more Hebrews 10:17(their record wiped clean)

And we have GOD'S love will preserve all that are CHRIST'S for all time and they will have no more sorrow, crying or pain (Rev 20:4)

verse 7 So we have those in who will overcome and inherit all things and GOD will be their FATHER.(reborn believers in CHRIST John 3:3, the good seed Matt 13:37)

verse 8 Then we have the other group who loved darkness and evil ( John 3:19 ,the tares Matt 13:38)



GOD never made any promises to forgive unrepentent sin or not to keep records of sin for the day of judgment., It is quite the oppisite GOD will judge each according to their works (Rev 20:12)and their words(Matt 12:36) of what is written in the books.



Revelation 21
All Things Made New
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.�
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.� And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.�
6 And He said to me, “It is done![c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[e] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death


Revelation 20
The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

[OnceConvinced]

First I would like to refute your meaning of John 3:16.

The meaning of world in 3:16 refers to those who will believe in CHRIST.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 2889&t=KJV

If you claim that the meaning of the word "world" means those who believe in Christ then John 3:16 contains a tautology, something you would not expect from the word of God. Let's take your chosen meaning and put it into the verse

For God so loved those who believe, that he gave his only begotton son, so that those of them who believe should not perish but have eternal life.

Why would God say it in such a round about way? Why not just:

For God so loved those that believed in him, that he gave his only son, so that they should not perish but have eternal life

Putting in the word "world" is opening the scripture up for misinterpretation. If he did not mean the world why did he use that word?

What I see he is doing here is comparing two things. Those who believe and those who don't. Those who believe will have eternal life, while those who don't will perish. But yet he loves them all anyway. God gave his son for the world. But only those who believe will get eternal life. The others won't.

I think we have a major issue here. Does God love everyone?

I agree that it makes more sense to say that God loves only the elect and that he hates those who are evil. That does fit in with other scriptures. If we take this view then I am more likely to agree that God is loving (to those he claims to love) and I have very little problem with someone saying the God loves in the same manner he expects us to. I was unaware that you took this stance. However there are still some things I can continue to argue in this debate even if we take your view point.

I think you would agree though, if we are to say that God loves everyone, including unbelievers, that it would be pretty much impossible to show that God holds all the above attributes I have listed.

All who are reborn in CHRIST past, present and future, GOD'S love will preserve them for all time.

And as for record of wrongs, all who repent will be given a clean slate and a new life in CHRIST

verse 17 their sins I will remember no more.

If we are to agree that God does not love the whole world, but only those he has elected, then I would agree that God wipes the slate clean and does not hold your sins against you. Thus he would be showing this attribute of love.

However the curse issue is one that shows God holds grudges, even against his elect. I will address that further down.

[I do not see any claim that GOD will love the seeds sown by the devil and not judge them.

Once again this is fine if we say that God only loves his elect. Then I would agree that God does not love those he throws into Hell.

Further evidence that God keeps records of wrongs, is the fact that he curses entire generations for the acts of one person. The best known curse is pain of child birth in the book of Genesis,

This was punishment for disobediance and with the curse came the prophecy that CHRIST would defeat Satan

verse 15

Her seed and your seed (Matthew 13:36-43)

Her(CHRIST'S) seed - Sons of the Kingdom (good seed)
Your(Satan's) seed sons of the wicked one (The tares)

CHRIST shall bruise Satans head(defeat at the cross)
Satan shall bruise CHRIST'S heal(temporarily aggravate untill final judgment)

I do not argue that this is not a punishment, but to apply that punishment to those who have not committed the sin? Is that love?

To me it is obvious evidence that God holds things against people, even those he claims to love. Child birth pains apply to everyone, his elect included. To penalise generations for the acts of their decendents cannot be considered loving and is an example of a grudge being held. Nobody would punish their children's children for the act of their child. This is not an example of "wiping the slate clean", is it?

Do you agree that the curse of child birth pain is also upon God's elect, the ones who have accepted him as their savior, the ones he most definitely loves?

but also note the one in Exodus that punishes your descendents if you worship false Gods (Ex 20:4). God obviously doesn’t forget and certainly holds grudges.

We see here in Deuteronmy 24:16 that a person shall be put to death for their own sins not those of their fathers.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (New King James Version)
16 “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.


The meaning in Exodus is. Children will suffer because of the evil their fathers did in the sight of GOD.

Example The parents turned away from GOD to follow fasle gods, so by doing this when they have children the parents will teach thier children to serve false gods which in turn will bring judgment on them and thier children after, so long as they continued in this evil way.

This is an assumption here. What evidence is there to support that the parents will teach their children to serve their false Gods? I know of many religious folk who deliberately don't push their religion on their children because they want their children to come to their own conclusions.

If you are to say that the children of parents who worship false Gods are condemned due to their parent's actions, then those who are born of the elect must also then be considered holy and righteous.

However this argument becomes irrelevent if we are to say that God only loves his elect. This curse may not apply to the elect, but the child birth one still does.

So here we can see that God’s love does not preserve except for those that love him back (certainly not the unconditional love he claims to possess). We also see that God does indeed keep records of wrong doings.

We have seen that those who are reborn in CHRIST, GOD will remember their sins no more Hebrews 10:17(their record wiped clean)

Which is true if God only loves his elect. However that is still to be determined. However if God loves everybody, including sinners, then his love most definitely does not perservere and he does indeed keep records of wrong doings.

But like I pointed out, the whole curse of child birth pain is a curse that applies to the elect as well as unbelievers. So that argument still supports what I am saying, even if we are to agree that God only loves the elect.

GOD never made any promises to forgive unrepentent sin or not to keep records of sin for the day of judgment., It is quite the oppisite GOD will judge each according to their works (Rev 20:12)and their words(Matt 12:36) of what is written in the books.

That would bring up a whole new debate on "Whether the God of the bible can claim to be merciful".

I would suggest, to keep this debate going, that maybe seeing as we don't agree on whether God loves everybody, that maybe we could stick to arguing only issues that related to God's chosen ones. I would still like to present my arguments for those readers who believe God loves everyone (because there will no doubt be many who take that stance0, but we can debate only the issues that related to God's love for the elect.

Thus:
I will agree (based on your argument that God loves only the elect), that:

God does not hold a written record of sins of those who are saved. The record is only for those he does not love.

God's love continues throughout all eternity for the elect, however those who go to Hell, God never loved to begin with.

I will still maintain that curses that still apply to Christians (eg child birth pain) is a grudge and comes under the category of "taking a record of wrongs". It was, what... 6-7000 years ago when Adam and Eve screwed up? And weren't they saved? Surely there should be no need for the curse of birth pain anymore, especially if you are one of God's elect?

[drs]

First I would like to refute your meaning of John 3:16.

The meaning of world in 3:16 refers to those who will believe in CHRIST.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 2889&t=KJV

If you claim that the meaning of the word "world" means those who believe in Christ then John 3:16 contains a tautology, something you would not expect from the word of God. Let's take your chosen meaning and put it into the verse

For God so loved those who believe, that he gave his only begotton son, so that those of them who believe should not perish but have eternal life.

Why would God say it in such a round about way? Why not just:

For God so loved those that believed in him, that he gave his only son, so that they should not perish but have eternal life

Putting in the word "world" is opening the scripture up for misinterpretation. If he did not mean the world why did he use that word?

All I can say is kosmos has multiple meanings depending in which context it is used.


1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

What I see he is doing here is comparing two things. Those who believe and those who don't. Those who believe will have eternal life, while those who don't will perish. But yet he loves them all anyway. God gave his son for the world. But only those who believe will get eternal life. The others won't.

I think we have a major issue here. Does God love everyone?

I think CHRIST makes it clear here who will be loved.

verse 21 and 23


John 14

Indwelling of the Father and the Son

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.�
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?�
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

I agree that it makes more sense to say that God loves only the elect and that he hates those who are evil. That does fit in with other scriptures. If we take this view then I am more likely to agree that God is loving (to those he claims to love) and I have very little problem with someone saying the God loves in the same manner he expects us to. I was unaware that you took this stance. However there are still some things I can continue to argue in this debate even if we take your view point.

I think you would agree though, if we are to say that God loves everyone, including unbelievers, that it would be pretty much impossible to show that God holds all the above attributes I have listed.

To truly debate and discus the scripture we are going to have to agree on doctrine and what GOD is saying otherwise we are going to run into problems.

Further evidence that God keeps records of wrongs, is the fact that he curses entire generations for the acts of one person. The best known curse is pain of child birth in the book of Genesis,

This was punishment for disobediance and with the curse came the prophecy that CHRIST would defeat Satan

verse 15

Her seed and your seed (Matthew 13:36-43)

Her(CHRIST'S) seed - Sons of the Kingdom (good seed)
Your(Satan's) seed sons of the wicked one (The tares)

CHRIST shall bruise Satans head(defeat at the cross)
Satan shall bruise CHRIST'S heal(temporarily aggravate untill final judgment)

I do not argue that this is not a punishment, but to apply that punishment to those who have not committed the sin? Is that love?

To me it is obvious evidence that God holds things against people, even those he claims to love. Child birth pains apply to everyone, his elect included. To penalise generations for the acts of their decendents cannot be considered loving and is an example of a grudge being held. Nobody would punish their children's children for the act of their child. This is not an example of "wiping the slate clean", is it?

Do you agree that the curse of child birth pain is also upon God's elect, the ones who have accepted him as their savior, the ones he most definitely loves?

Ofcourse I agree that child bearning pain will affect believers, but no where in scripture does it say reborn believers are exempt from pain and suffering untill they die and go to Heaven.(Rev 7:14-17,Rev 21:1-4)

And for keeping records of wrong, pain of child birth will not be used against women in the day of judgment nor do reborn women believers have to repent for this.

Also this is only a temporal curse which will no longer apply after death so there will be no slate that needs to be wiped clean for this.

Same as the cursed ground,

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“ Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.

Reborn male believers do not repent for the cursed ground nor will it be held against them in the world to come.

The curse has to run its course for the appointed time, then this world will be destroyed.



2 Peter 3 (New King James Version)
The Day of the Lord

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[c] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.


Revelation 21
All Things Made New
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.�
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.� And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.�
6 And He said to me, “It is done![c] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[d] and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[e] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.�




.

GOD never made any promises to forgive unrepentent sin or not to keep records of sin for the day of judgment., It is quite the oppisite GOD will judge each according to their works (Rev 20:12)and their words(Matt 12:36) of what is written in the books.

That would bring up a whole new debate on "Whether the God of the bible can claim to be merciful".

I would suggest, to keep this debate going, that maybe seeing as we don't agree on whether God loves everybody, that maybe we could stick to arguing only issues that related to God's chosen ones. I would still like to present my arguments for those readers who believe God loves everyone (because there will no doubt be many who take that stance0, but we can debate only the issues that related to God's love for the elect.

I will debate whatever you wish.

[OnceConvinced]

To truly debate and discus the scripture we are going to have to agree on doctrine and what GOD is saying otherwise we are going to run into problems.

I don't think it's necessary to agree on doctrine. But we can agree on what doctrine we will debate from.

I see many varying doctrines on all sorts of topics. The doctrine we discussed in an earlier thread about judging others is an example of two different doctrines, both practised by bible believing churches. I chose to discuss it from the perspective that it was wrong to judge, a perspective I always held.

What we have here is yet another one of those differing doctrines. Some Christians believe God loves everyone and some believe God loves only those he has elected.

Over the last couple of years I have come to realise that there was really no way of knowing who is right on a lot of issues. So I debate based on a particular doctrine, even if it's a perspective I don't hold. That way I can debate against people who hold different beliefs to me.

I took it for granted that the majority of Christians believed God loves everyone. I have now found that you do not believe this. On this ocassion I am happy to adjust doctrines to match up with yours and will do so, even though I will no longer be able to bring up a lot of points I intended to. But I would still like you to acknowledge my original perspective and that if God loves the whole world (elect and the non-elect) he can then not be shown to be a God of love based on the attributes I listed. Using that doctrine, would you agree? If you do, then we can leave that one behind us and focus on the doctrine that God loves only the elect.

Further evidence that God keeps records of wrongs, is the fact that he curses entire generations for the acts of one person. The best known curse is pain of child birth in the book of Genesis,

This was punishment for disobediance and with the curse came the prophecy that CHRIST would defeat Satan

verse 15

Her seed and your seed (Matthew 13:36-43)

Her(CHRIST'S) seed - Sons of the Kingdom (good seed)
Your(Satan's) seed sons of the wicked one (The tares)

CHRIST shall bruise Satans head(defeat at the cross)
Satan shall bruise CHRIST'S heal(temporarily aggravate untill final judgment)

I do not argue that this is not a punishment, but to apply that punishment to those who have not committed the sin? Is that love?

To me it is obvious evidence that God holds things against people, even those he claims to love. Child birth pains apply to everyone, his elect included. To penalise generations for the acts of their decendents cannot be considered loving and is an example of a grudge being held. Nobody would punish their children's children for the act of their child. This is not an example of "wiping the slate clean", is it?

Do you agree that the curse of child birth pain is also upon God's elect, the ones who have accepted him as their savior, the ones he most definitely loves?

Ofcourse I agree that child bearning pain will affect believers, but no where in scripture does it say reborn believers are exempt from pain and suffering untill they die and go to Heaven.(Rev 7:14-17,Rev 21:1-4)

And for keeping records of wrong, pain of child birth will not be used against women in the day of judgment nor do reborn women believers have to repent for this.

Also this is only a temporal curse which will no longer apply after death so there will be no slate that needs to be wiped clean for this.

It may be temporary, but then keeping of records is not necessarily a permanent thing. As we know, when a person accepts Christ as their savior and is saved, the record will be wiped. But the fact is the record was held, even if only temporarily. The fact that the record was even there in the first place shows that God keeps records of wrong doings, thus violating his own rules of what love is.

If we look at it from a real world perspective grudges can be held for a very long time. This is really a form of unforgiveness. People may hold on to grudges, they may hold something against a person for a very long time. If you were to hold something against your wife for a long time, this would not be considered love according to God. But what if after a time you learn to forgive or the pain no longer exists, so you move on. You decide no longer to hold that grudge. That happens all the time in reality. The record is wiped. But the fact remains that the record was still there for quite some time. The person was not showing the godly love they should have been shown to that person while that record was being held against that person. I believe it's called "harbouring unforgiveness".

So how can God then be able to claim he loves one of the elect while that person is still an evil sinner? God keeps a record of that person's sin until such time as that person repents. Only then is the record cleared.

As far as curses are concerned, they may be temporary but they are still an example of unforgiveness, or wrongs being kept a record of, of a grudge being shown. This according to God is not what love is.

GOD never made any promises to forgive unrepentent sin or not to keep records of sin for the day of judgment., It is quite the oppisite GOD will judge each according to their works (Rev 20:12)and their words(Matt 12:36) of what is written in the books.

That would bring up a whole new debate on "Whether the God of the bible can claim to be merciful".

I would suggest, to keep this debate going, that maybe seeing as we don't agree on whether God loves everybody, that maybe we could stick to arguing only issues that related to God's chosen ones. I would still like to present my arguments for those readers who believe God loves everyone (because there will no doubt be many who take that stance0, but we can debate only the issues that related to God's love for the elect.

I will debate whatever you wish.

Ok, well I will accept that the doctrine we are going to continue to argue for and against is that God loves only the elect, not the unbeliever who does not and will not repent. This puts me at a disadvantage in that I will have to concede certain points I was going to make, but I believe there is still enough to debate that shows that God does still not show some of the attributes he requires when it comes to love.

I'll bring up another attribute once we've finished talking about "keeping records of wrongs".

[drs]

To truly debate and discus the scripture we are going to have to agree on doctrine and what GOD is saying otherwise we are going to run into problems.

I don't think it's necessary to agree on doctrine. But we can agree on what doctrine we will debate from.

I see many varying doctrines on all sorts of topics. The doctrine we discussed in an earlier thread about judging others is an example of two different doctrines, both practised by bible believing churches. I chose to discuss it from the perspective that it was wrong to judge, a perspective I always held.

What we have here is yet another one of those differing doctrines. Some Christians believe God loves everyone and some believe God loves only those he has elected.

Over the last couple of years I have come to realise that there was really no way of knowing who is right on a lot of issues. So I debate based on a particular doctrine, even if it's a perspective I don't hold. That way I can debate against people who hold different beliefs to me.

I took it for granted that the majority of Christians believed God loves everyone. I have now found that you do not believe this. On this ocassion I am happy to adjust doctrines to match up with yours and will do so, even though I will no longer be able to bring up a lot of points I intended to. But I would still like you to acknowledge my original perspective and that if God loves the whole world (elect and the non-elect) he can then not be shown to be a God of love based on the attributes I listed. Using that doctrine, would you agree? If you do, then we can leave that one behind us and focus on the doctrine that God loves only the elect.

I will agree that GOD is not a GOD of love to those who do evil in His sight but He will be a GOD of judgment and will keep records and His love will not preserve those who do not repent of sin and refuse to obey Him.

Further evidence that God keeps records of wrongs, is the fact that he curses entire generations for the acts of one person. The best known curse is pain of child birth in the book of Genesis,

This was punishment for disobediance and with the curse came the prophecy that CHRIST would defeat Satan

verse 15

Her seed and your seed (Matthew 13:36-43)

Her(CHRIST'S) seed - Sons of the Kingdom (good seed)
Your(Satan's) seed sons of the wicked one (The tares)

CHRIST shall bruise Satans head(defeat at the cross)
Satan shall bruise CHRIST'S heal(temporarily aggravate untill final judgment)

I do not argue that this is not a punishment, but to apply that punishment to those who have not committed the sin? Is that love?

To me it is obvious evidence that God holds things against people, even those he claims to love. Child birth pains apply to everyone, his elect included. To penalise generations for the acts of their decendents cannot be considered loving and is an example of a grudge being held. Nobody would punish their children's children for the act of their child. This is not an example of "wiping the slate clean", is it?

Do you agree that the curse of child birth pain is also upon God's elect, the ones who have accepted him as their savior, the ones he most definitely loves?

Ofcourse I agree that child bearning pain will affect believers, but no where in scripture does it say reborn believers are exempt from pain and suffering untill they die and go to Heaven.(Rev 7:14-17,Rev 21:1-4)

And for keeping records of wrong, pain of child birth will not be used against women in the day of judgment nor do reborn women believers have to repent for this.

Also this is only a temporal curse which will no longer apply after death so there will be no slate that needs to be wiped clean for this

It may be temporary, but then keeping of records is not necessarily a permanent thing. As we know, when a person accepts Christ as their savior and is saved, the record will be wiped. But the fact is the record was held, even if only temporarily. The fact that the record was even there in the first place shows that God keeps records of wrong doings, thus violating his own rules of what love is.

If we look at it from a real world perspective grudges can be held for a very long time. This is really a form of unforgiveness. People may hold on to grudges, they may hold something against a person for a very long time. If you were to hold something against your wife for a long time, this would not be considered love according to God. But what if after a time you learn to forgive or the pain no longer exists, so you move on. You decide no longer to hold that grudge. That happens all the time in reality. The record is wiped. But the fact remains that the record was still there for quite some time. The person was not showing the godly love they should have been shown to that person while that record was being held against that person. I believe it's called "harbouring unforgiveness".

So how can God then be able to claim he loves one of the elect while that person is still an evil sinner? God keeps a record of that person's sin until such time as that person repents. Only then is the record cleared.

GOD has not violated anything, He keeps no records of sin for believers.

GOD before the foundation of the world knew and predestined those who would come to faith in CHRIST and they would be without blame before Him in love.

So before any believer ever sinned GOD had already determined their salvation through the blood of CHRIST on the cross.

Your argument would only be valid if GOD did not know who would repent and be reborn.


Ephesians 1
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace


Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified


Here is how it is translated in the King James and a further explanation of How GOD does not keep records of wrongs(sins) on believers.


http://www.biblebb.com/files/mac/sg1866.htm


I. Love Thinks No Evil (v. 5d)

"...[love] thinketh no evil"


1. LOGIZOMAI DEFINED

The word translated "thinketh" (Gk. logizomai) is an accountant's word which literally means "to keep a mathematical calculation." It is a word that is used to refer to the writing of something in a bookkeeper's ledger. Now the reason a bookkeeper writes things in a ledger is so that he won't forget them, right? So, what Paul is saying here is, "Love never keeps books on the evil done to it. Love never keeps a running record of everybody's offense. Love never holds others accountable for some wrong, evil, or injury that they have done. Love just forgives and forgets."

Chrysostom, the early church father, had a beautiful thought on this subject. What he said went something like this: As a spark is quenched when it falls into the sea, an injury that falls upon a loving Christian is just as surely drowned. That's the way it ought to be. Offenses ought to be drowned in the sea of love.

2. LOGIZOMAI DISCUSSED

Now, to illustrate what Paul is saying here in 1 Corinthians 13:5, we simply need to look at the word logizomai. This word is the same verb that is used in the New Testament to speak of the pardoning act of God. So, since God has not kept any books on our sin, we are not to keep any books on the evils of others. In fact, logizomai is often translated in the New Testament with the word imputed. For example:

a. What Is Not Imputed

1) Romans 4:8--"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." In the language of 1 Corinthians 13:5 it would read, "Blessed is the man of whom the Lord keeps no record of evil." People say, "Well, someday when we get to heaven we're going to face the record of our evil." No, there is no record of our evil. The only thing that's written in each one of our books is the fact that we are declared righteous. Then it's closed and put in the file. Why? Because the Lord does not mathematically add up our sin. He does not keep an accounting of sin. That's a great truth. I'm happy about that, aren't you?

2) 2 Corinthians 5:19a--"To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them...." In other words, God does not keep a record of evil on those who come to Christ. God doesn't keep an accounting, nor does He think evil of them. It's a great reality to realize that God never accounts evil to a believer.

You say, "Well what is on the ledger?"

b. What Is Imputed

1) Romans 4:6--"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness apart from works."

2) Romans 4:22--"And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."

3) James 2:23a--"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness...." In other words, God only keeps account of righteousness, never evil.

Have you ever offended God as a Christian? I have. In fact, I do it all the time. But do you know what? Even though I offend God, He doesn't say, "I'm getting sick of that MacArthur! I'm going to start writing his sins down if he doesn't shape up." He doesn't say that, because He keeps no account. He gives us absolute forgiveness because He loves us, right? God so loves us that He doesn't keep account of our sin; He just forgives it all and keeps on forgiving, and keeps on forgiving, and keeps on forgiving. Resentment, however, keeps the books on other's offences.

As far as curses are concerned, they may be temporary but they are still an example of unforgiveness, or wrongs being kept a record of, of a grudge being shown. This according to God is not what love is.

From my last post I still hold that this curse is not considered a record of sin, it was a punishment.

And just because someone is punished does not mean GOD is holding back forgiveness or a grudge is being held.

Before there was ever a curse there was already forgivness through CHRIST on the cross.

GOD has determined the end from the begining.

Isaiah 46
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’




Those who will repent and believe in CHRIST were forgiven before they were ever created.

[OnceConvinced]

But I would still like you to acknowledge my original perspective and that if God loves the whole world (elect and the non-elect) he can then not be shown to be a God of love based on the attributes I listed. Using that doctrine, would you agree?

I will agree that GOD is not a GOD of love to those who do evil in His sight but He will be a GOD of judgment and will keep records and His love will not preserve those who do not repent of sin and refuse to obey Him.

You seem to having trouble looking at this from the perspective that God loves everyone, which is what I am asking you to do for just one moment. I will assume that you are unable to or unwilling to do that.

Never mind. We'll move on.

BTW, I have started a seperate topic if you would like to defend the belief that God loves only the elect: Does God love everyone?

GOD has not violated anything, He keeps no records of sin for believers.

I agree, but he did have a record before they became believers, didn't he? It was a record that you quoted a scripture on, that would be wiped once the offender repented. So therefore he does keep records of sin for the ones he claims to love.

Hebrews 10:16
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,�[c] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.�[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

You see? Here he quite clearly keeps a record. He then wipes that record. But the fact is the record of wrongs was there for the person he claims to have loved. (john 3:16)

This is the same as me holding a grudge against someone I claim to love. After some time that person apologises for the thing they did and wants to make it up to me. I then decide to forgive that person, no longer holding into account that wrong. But you see the record was there until I decided to forgive. This is the same with God.


Or are you suggesting that God goes from hating the person to suddenly loving the person simply because they repented?

GOD before the foundation of the world knew and predestined those who would come to faith in CHRIST and they would be without blame before Him in love.

So before any believer ever sinned GOD had already determined their salvation through the blood of CHRIST on the cross.

Your argument would only be valid if GOD did not know who would repent and be reborn.

I understand your perspective, but as I have shown you above (using scripture you quoted to back up your claims), God does keep a record. For a record to be wiped clean, there has to be one to begin with. It is only wiped clean once they repent.

God predestined a person for salvation, yes, which is why he sent his son to die on the cross. Why did he do this? Because there was a record of wrongs against this person and that record had to be somehow erased. See how there was still a record kept against them?

So Drs, is there a record that needs to be wiped clean? Why is there a record kept at all if God claims that love is not keeping a record. This is what we call unforgiveness and it is there until such time as a person repents. At that point they are forgiven. If this sort of unforgiveness is harboured by individuals to one another then from a biblical perspective we do not consider it love.

There have been times in my life I have been wronged by a person. And I have been bitter. But I know myself and I know that I won't remain bitter for long. Sooner or later I will forgive that person and no longer hold it against them. I'm like that (and it's been to my detriment at times). And I'm sure there are many others like me. But I am still harbouring unforgiveness until such time as I choose to forgive. I am still harbouring resentment, I am still holding a grudge against that person, keeping a record of the wrong.

Just like with a human being, it really makes no difference whether God knew he would ulitimately forgive or not. The fact is the record does exist until such time as he erases it.

The word translated "thinketh" (Gk. logizomai) is an accountant's word which literally means "to keep a mathematical calculation." It is a word that is used to refer to the writing of something in a bookkeeper's ledger. Now the reason a bookkeeper writes things in a ledger is so that he won't forget them, right? So, what Paul is saying here is, "Love never keeps books on the evil done to it. Love never keeps a running record of everybody's offense. Love never holds others accountable for some wrong, evil, or injury that they have done. Love just forgives and forgets."

But God does exactly that even for those he loves.

Do you not see? God does not forgive, he does not forget until such time as a person repents. This record is held until such a time as that happens.

Have you ever offended God as a Christian? I have. In fact, I do it all the time. But do you know what? Even though I offend God, He doesn't say, "I'm getting sick of that MacArthur! I'm going to start writing his sins down if he doesn't shape up." He doesn't say that, because He keeps no account. He gives us absolute forgiveness because He loves us, right? God so loves us that He doesn't keep account of our sin; He just forgives it all and keeps on forgiving, and keeps on forgiving, and keeps on forgiving. Resentment, however, keeps the books on other's offences.

This is all very well for those who have had their record wiped clean. But none of those things are forgiven or wiped until such time as the believer repents.

[drs]

But I would still like you to acknowledge my original perspective and that if God loves the whole world (elect and the non-elect) he can then not be shown to be a God of love based on the attributes I listed. Using that doctrine, would you agree?

I will agree that GOD is not a GOD of love to those who do evil in His sight but He will be a GOD of judgment and will keep records and His love will not preserve those who do not repent of sin and refuse to obey Him.

You seem to having trouble looking at this from the perspective that God loves everyone, which is what I am asking you to do for just one moment. I will assume that you are unable to or unwilling to do that.

Never mind. We'll move on.

I am sorry, I will only debate from the perspective of what the scripture teaches.

GOD has not violated anything, He keeps no records of sin for believers.

I agree, but he did have a record before they became believers, didn't he? It was a record that you quoted a scripture on, that would be wiped once the offender repented. So therefore he does keep records of sin for the ones he claims to love.

Hebrews 10:16
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,�[c] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.�[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

You see? Here he quite clearly keeps a record. He then wipes that record. But the fact is the record of wrongs was there for the person he claims to have loved. (john 3:16)

This is the same as me holding a grudge against someone I claim to love. After some time that person apologises for the thing they did and wants to make it up to me. I then decide to forgive that person, no longer holding into account that wrong. But you see the record was there until I decided to forgive. This is the same with God.


Or are you suggesting that God goes from hating the person to suddenly loving the person simply because they repented?

You are bound by time, example someone wrongs you, and you either forgive them or do not hold it against them right away. This would be considered not keeping a record of wrong, imputing evil towards this person or holding a grudge.

(you are failing to see that you can forgive someone before they ask you for forgiveness)


You can not look at this from a human perspective concerning forgivness of GOD.

At the bottom of my last post I wrote this

drs
Those who will repent and believe in CHRIST were forgiven before they were ever created.

I will add GOD loved them before they were ever created, loved them while they were sining and continue's to love them after they have repented.

So they were forgiven by GOD before they ever asked for forgivness in GOD'S eyes because He is outside of time.

GOD before the foundation of the world knew and predestined those who would come to faith in CHRIST and they would be without blame before Him in love.

So before any believer ever sinned GOD had already determined their salvation through the blood of CHRIST on the cross.

Your argument would only be valid if GOD did not know who would repent and be reborn.

I understand your perspective, but as I have shown you above (using scripture you quoted to back up your claims), God does keep a record. For a record to be wiped clean, there has to be one to begin with. It is only wiped clean once they repent.

God predestined a person for salvation, yes, which is why he sent his son to die on the cross. Why did he do this? Because there was a record of wrongs against this person and that record had to be somehow erased. See how there was still a record kept against them?

I have shown you that GOD forgives the sinner long before they were ever born according to how we see time.

I have shown you that you can forgive someone after they wrong you before they ever ask forgivness.

Now I think we must now examine the meaning of 1 Corinthians13:5


http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 3049&t=KJV



logizomai - thinketh


1) to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over

a) to take into account, to make an account of

1) metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute

2) a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight

b) to number among, reckon with

c) to reckon or account

2) to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate

3) by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer

a) to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on

b) to suppose, deem, judge

c) to determine, purpose, decide




ou - no

1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer



kakos - evil


1) of a bad nature

a) not such as it ought to be

2) of a mode of thinking, feeling, acting

a) base, wrong, wicked

3) troublesome, injurious, pernicious, destructive, baneful




You have quoted - it keeps no record of wrongs NIV

I submit - thinketh no evil KJV

And now we translate from greek.

Thinketh no evil
(does not impute sins or hold one accountable)


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/imputed

impute
Verb
[-puting, -puted]
1. to attribute (blame or a crime) to a person
2. to attribute to a source or cause: I impute your success to nepotism [Latin in- in + putare to think]


2. LOGIZOMAI DISCUSSED

Now, to illustrate what Paul is saying here in 1 Corinthians 13:5, we simply need to look at the word logizomai. This word is the same verb that is used in the New Testament to speak of the pardoning act of God. So, since God has not kept any books on our sin, we are not to keep any books on the evils of others. In fact, logizomai is often translated in the New Testament with the word imputed. For example:


So here we have the explaination of pardoning(forgiving)

So as GOD forgives your sins also you should forgive others.

GOD does not impute the sins of believers or hold them accountable(they are pardoned and forgiven)



a. What Is Not Imputed

1) Romans 4:8--"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." In the language of 1 Corinthians 13:5 it would read, "Blessed is the man of whom the Lord keeps no record of evil." People say, "Well, someday when we get to heaven we're going to face the record of our evil." No, there is no record of our evil. The only thing that's written in each one of our books is the fact that we are declared righteous. Then it's closed and put in the file. Why? Because the Lord does not mathematically add up our sin. He does not keep an accounting of sin. That's a great truth. I'm happy about that, aren't you?

2) 2 Corinthians 5:19a--"To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them...." In other words, God does not keep a record of evil on those who come to Christ. God doesn't keep an accounting, nor does He think evil of them. It's a great reality to realize that God never accounts evil to a believer.

You say, "Well what is on the ledger?"

b. What Is Imputed

1) Romans 4:6--"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness apart from works."

2) Romans 4:22--"And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."

3) James 2:23a--"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness...." In other words, God only keeps account of righteousness, never evil.

The word translated "thinketh" (Gk. logizomai) is an accountant's word which literally means "to keep a mathematical calculation." It is a word that is used to refer to the writing of something in a bookkeeper's ledger. Now the reason a bookkeeper writes things in a ledger is so that he won't forget them, right? So, what Paul is saying here is, "Love never keeps books on the evil done to it. Love never keeps a running record of everybody's offense. Love never holds others accountable for some wrong, evil, or injury that they have done. Love just forgives and forgets."

But God does exactly that even for those he loves.

Do you not see? God does not forgive, he does not forget until such time as a person repents. This record is held until such a time as that happens.

As we have seen above (it keeps no records of wrongs) is not the best translation.

Paul is not talking about people keeping written ledgers, he is speaking about withholding forgivness to your fellow brothers in CHRIST.

Believers in CHRIST are supposed to have a speacial love and bond with each other as they do with GOD, so they are to love and take care of each other and to forgive one another as GOD has forgiven them.

John 13
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.�


As it is explained above, for those in CHRIST, GOD loves and He does not impute(blame believers) and hold them accountable for their sins, GOD has forgiven them even before they were ever born.

This is what makes GOD'S eternal love so above that of people, GOD has forgiven(in His Heart/Soul, kept no account) of all the evil of those who will believe in CHRIST before any of them ever sinned past, present and future by the Holy Blood of the Lamb on the cross.

GOD does not withhold forgivness for those already predestined to believe in CHRIST.

GOD does not hate them then on the day they repent love them.

That does not make sense.


verse 23 GOD has loved them(believers) as GOD has loved CHRIST

verse 24 You loved me before the foundation of the world(likewise for believers in CHRIST)

verse 26 that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.(eternal love)

John 17
Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.�

[Confused]

If I may make a suggestion here, determining an agreed use of terminology may be beneficial. Interpretation of the meaning of words was one issue addressed in the link I provided in my PM. Here is the link.

I would recommend both participants focus on McCullochs suggestion in post #2. Ambiguous terms, terminology, definition, etc... can make this debate become moot very quickly if there is no agreement on what accepted criteria is used for discerning definitions and meanings of words.