What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
theStudent
Guru
Posts: 1566
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:32 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

User avatar
theStudent
Guru
Posts: 1566
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:32 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: What If...?

Post #171

Post by theStudent »

Willum wrote: [Replying to theStudent]

Sure, fantastic. Web-sniping, you ask, I answer, and you look sage through criticism...

How does order arise without intelligence?

Well, first: Organization, is you being slippery, for organization is by definition derived of intelligence. Assuming you are not playing word games, dishonestly...

There is a hexagon on the North Pole of Saturn, order, sans intelligence. There are perfect bands on Jupiter and Saturn.

If you look at stones under a microscope, you see order in crystals. Plants have dendritic structures, very like minerals. Why, evolution has, through trial and error discovered it is efficient ways to transfer liquid.

Order by successive iteration for living, competing things.

Viewed that way, randomness is a more unusual occurrence.

Quid quo pro.
Willum
I'll have to put this post under a microscope, and get back to you.
Looking at it with the naked eye, it appears you are saying that there is order in design, but I am not seeing an answer to my question.

So just let me check more closely.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

User avatar
theStudent
Guru
Posts: 1566
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:32 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #172

Post by theStudent »

H.sapiens wrote: We get back to basics:

1. Religion has never falsified science.
2. Science has repeatedly falsified the bible.
I have known some science to agree with scriptures.
Could you give me examples where
Science has repeatedly falsified the bible.
except in the area of evolution?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

Bust Nak
Savant
Posts: 9874
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 am
Location: Planet Earth
Has thanked: 189 times
Been thanked: 267 times

Post #173

Post by Bust Nak »

theStudent wrote:
Bust Nak wrote:The origin of species is the common ancestor.
The origin of life is the origin of the common ancestor.
That does not make an ounce of sense.
Let me try something else then.

I am tasked with writing an essay on "The origin of the United States of America." Should I be writing about the colonial effort and subsequence revolutionary wars, or would you expect the essay to talk about the formation of Great Britain (and maybe include the other significant players like the French Republic?)

I would say it is the former, the existence of Britain taken for granted, its origin is beyond the scope of the essay. The origin of major European powers is analogous to the origin of life, the origin of USA is analogous to the origin of species.

User avatar
Willum
Savant
Posts: 9017
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Re: What If...?

Post #174

Post by Willum »

[Replying to theStudent]

No, no, no, it appears you are redefining what I did say. Not for nothing, but don't Christians accuse the Devil of this kind of ruse to deflect away from the truth.

My post says, order is natural. It is everywhere. There is a principle, called supervenience, and it loosely menas, the macro reflects the micro, or there is large-scale order that is similar to small scale order.

Crystals are very orderly, without design. When crystals grow, they replicate. Replication is a necessary component of life.

Now, know that I am going to keep rounding back on the questions you sagely refuse to answer.

Kenisaw
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:41 pm
Location: St Louis, MO, USA
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Re: What If...?

Post #175

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 154 by Clownboat]

Ooh
And here's mine.
Some info that some might find relevant:

The Bible...
1 Corinthians 1:19-21
19For it is written: I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectuals I will reject. 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this system of things? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not get to know God through its wisdom, ...
Since you cannot prove that life originated from blind chance, which scientists have been looking for, for like, ever, It might be, in fact I suggest you go where the evidence leads, and accept the fact that we are the product of intelligent design. :)
...before it's too late.
First off, how is that quote proof that a god creature exists and created us? I'd like a specific answer to this question too if you don't mind.

Second, yes we can say with 100% certainly that life can happen via "blind chance". There is nothing about life that violates any law of the universe. Everything about life is chemically possible. We don't know how it specifically happened, but we do know it is possible. Please retract your statement.

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 10260
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 1452 times
Been thanked: 1757 times

Re: What If...?

Post #176

Post by Clownboat »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 154 by Clownboat]
Ooh
And here's mine.
Some info that some might find relevant:

The Bible...
1 Corinthians 1:19-21
19For it is written: I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectuals I will reject. 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this system of things? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not get to know God through its wisdom, ...
I read this as a celebration of ignorance and sheepish behavior. I can see why a guy creating a church would rejoice in such things, can't you?
Then he says that the world did not get to know God through its wisdom, well derp, the world has not gotten to know any god to this point, wisdom or not.

Should we really trust what the Bible says about wisdom anyways?
- Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing, therefore get wisdom and with all they getting, get understanding.
- Ecc 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief, and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
Since you cannot prove that life originated from blind chance, which scientists have been looking for, for like, ever, It might be, in fact I suggest you go where the evidence leads, and accept the fact that we are the product of intelligent design. :)
...before it's too late.
You are not talking to children here. It would be best if you left your scare tactics to the terrorists. A god could do better than to try scare people into belief.
Believe or burn!!!
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 10260
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 1452 times
Been thanked: 1757 times

Post #177

Post by Clownboat »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 155 by Clownboat]
Clownboat wrote:There is no one else to blame. It IS your fault. I have pointed out many times that all you need to do is find a fossil that is out of place. I even provided the example of finding a rabbit in the Cambrian era.
Who else is at fault for not seeing this simple way to falsify evolution? I could have also pointed out that we humans would need to find a fused chromosome in order for human evolution to be true. Guess what? Once we were able to look, we found it, so I guess that one is off the table. Another prediction of evolution that has been shown to be true.
What?
More speculation?
Don't they get tired of it?
What are you talking about? Address the fact that it IS your fault for not seeing just how easy evolution would be to falsify.
I guess not. Not when they can waste government money, to get their name in a book.
Take note, I'm not referring to all scientists. I'm talking about the ones out there looking for E.T., and the "mysterious" first cause.
How ironic. There's no God, but there must be E.T. My my.
What are you talking about and what does it have to do with your god not being able to falsify evolution?
The Bible writers are more famous than they are, and they weren't even looking for fame.
What are you talking about and why can't you show a fossil out of place and why don't you address the fused chromosome that we found that must have been there in order for human evolution to be true. Again, if there was no fused chromosome, human evolution would have been disproved, but there was.
All this and we haven't even touched much on retro viruses.
I admit that wolves in sheep clothing are responsible for many people running around like chickens with they heads cut off, but some do find the true sheep, who are not like that. And the information provided by the Bible writers has had a real positive influence on their lives.
Please explain the relevance of these words, and if they have meaning, please explain it.
Really. What have scientists offered people in the hope of a better tomorrow?
Maybe, the only hope they are banking on, is to be on the space station, by the time the earth burns up - according to their speculation.
Maybe another one is that by the year 2600, they would have found the elusive reversal process for aging, and death.
OK, now I'm starting to think you are just responding in the wrong thread.
Hope is a good thing.
1 Corinthians 13:13
13Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.
...provided it's in the right thing.
Why are you quoting from your preferred holy book here? I'm not reading anything meaningful. What am I missing?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

Kenisaw
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:41 pm
Location: St Louis, MO, USA
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Post #178

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote:
Again, why do many scientist not accept the evidence?

If these quote are incorect - I apologize, and they can be striken. I will personally do so.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1997/01 ... of-demons/
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/na ... ontin.html
Richard Charles "Dick" Lewontin is an American evolutionary biologist, geneticist, academic and social commentator. Wikipedia
Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.
The primary problem is not to provide the public with the knowledge of how far it is to the nearest star and what genes are made of, for that vast project is, in its entirety, hopeless. Rather, the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth.
There you have it, I might say, "Straight out of [one of] the horse's mouth."
I don't need to verify what I said then.
Truth be told.
How does a quote from one person equate to, as you call it, "many scientists do not accept the evidence"? Every poll I've ever seen says at least 97% of all scientists accept evolution as a valid scientific theory on the diversity of life on Earth (religioustolerance.org has some historical data showing trends of this as well by the way). You can keep quote mining all you want, that percentage says it all.

And, as usual, you don't argue about the morphological studies on fossils, or the geological data on the age of the rocks, or the genetic data showing how things are related. No, you post quotes and link us to articles that are pseudo-science or that you use in the wrong context because you don't understand them. But you "love sceince"...

Speaking of Origin of Species
I have another question.
Why did Darwin name his book Origin of Species if he is not talking about origin of life on earth.
Why don't you read it and find out for yourself?
What is the origin of species?
Isn't that referring to where the species came from?
So is he referring to where the species evolved from, as in the branch?
Or is he referring to the common ancestor?

If it's referring to for example the branch the baboon evolved from, can that not be called the origin of the baboon's life?
If it's referring to the common ancestor, can that not be called the origin of all life on earth?

Kenisaw.
You helped me out before.
Could you help me out with this one?
If you do not honestly know what "Origin of Species" means as a title of Darwin's book, why have you been trying to disprove the scientific theory of evolution over the past few months by posting quote mines and giving us links to "Questions On Islam"??? You are debating something that you don't even comprehend?

I find that incredible...

Read his book, and then get back to us.

Kenisaw
Guru
Posts: 2117
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:41 pm
Location: St Louis, MO, USA
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Post #179

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 156 by Kenisaw]
Kenisaw wrote:Right, some people use that phrase.
No.
That's what it officially became.
And I already provided a link to that information.
No, that is not what it "officially became". If you go to wikipedia and type in "chemical evolution" it will offer up several other topics, one of them being abiogenesis. When you go to the abiogenesis link it does not mention chemical evolution. It's getting ridiculous how much stuff you make up in a vain effort to boost your own baseless argument...
Kenisaw wrote:Where is that contained in the theory of evolution of life first proposed by Darwin? It isn't.
Tell me, or point out to me.
Where did I ever say I was only dealing with Darwin's theory of evolution?
I never did.
That's the first mystery of the confusion solved.
ROFL. That's rich. Look at your own OP, and tell me in all your talk about fossils and Darwin and biogenetics you get into "chemical evolution". You talk about nothing but the scientific theory of evolution as first proposed by Darwin. Your own words show what a fraudulent claim your statement truly is.
Kenisaw wrote:I have a tool called a plane that I use to smooth out wood. I've also flown on a plane to various locations. Just because they are spelled the same and pronounced the same doesn't mean their context is the same.

Hopefully this clears up your misunderstanding about a word being used in two different ways...
:-s
No.
You just left me scratching my head, in confusion.

As far as I remember, I never had a misunderstanding.
I knew clearly that I was dealing with all the theories of evolution.
You are the ones who had the misunderstanding.

Even now...
I take back what I said.
That's the first mystery of the confusion still unsolved.

Thanks for trying though.
I believe you mean well. :)
If you honestly were trying to include chemical evolution in your OP, then you did a horrendous job constructing your OP...

User avatar
H.sapiens
Guru
Posts: 2043
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:08 pm
Location: Ka'u Hawaii

Post #180

Post by H.sapiens »

Kenisaw wrote:
theStudent wrote:
Again, why do many scientist not accept the evidence?

If these quote are incorect - I apologize, and they can be striken. I will personally do so.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1997/01 ... of-demons/
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/na ... ontin.html
Richard Charles "Dick" Lewontin is an American evolutionary biologist, geneticist, academic and social commentator. Wikipedia
Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.
The primary problem is not to provide the public with the knowledge of how far it is to the nearest star and what genes are made of, for that vast project is, in its entirety, hopeless. Rather, the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth.
There you have it, I might say, "Straight out of [one of] the horse's mouth."
I don't need to verify what I said then.
Truth be told.
How does a quote from one person equate to, as you call it, "many scientists do not accept the evidence"? Every poll I've ever seen says at least 97% of all scientists accept evolution as a valid scientific theory on the diversity of life on Earth (religioustolerance.org has some historical data showing trends of this as well by the way). You can keep quote mining all you want, that percentage says it all.

And, as usual, you don't argue about the morphological studies on fossils, or the geological data on the age of the rocks, or the genetic data showing how things are related. No, you post quotes and link us to articles that are pseudo-science or that you use in the wrong context because you don't understand them. But you "love sceince"...

Speaking of Origin of Species
I have another question.
Why did Darwin name his book Origin of Species if he is not talking about origin of life on earth.
Why don't you read it and find out for yourself?
What is the origin of species?
Isn't that referring to where the species came from?
So is he referring to where the species evolved from, as in the branch?
Or is he referring to the common ancestor?

If it's referring to for example the branch the baboon evolved from, can that not be called the origin of the baboon's life?
If it's referring to the common ancestor, can that not be called the origin of all life on earth?

Kenisaw.
You helped me out before.
Could you help me out with this one?
If you do not honestly know what "Origin of Species" means as a title of Darwin's book, why have you been trying to disprove the scientific theory of evolution over the past few months by posting quote mines and giving us links to "Questions On Islam"??? You are debating something that you don't even comprehend?

I find that incredible...

Read his book, and then get back to us.
Lewontin is a friend of mine, well ... someone who I know from meetings whom I've socialized with at such functions. He does not speak for me, he does not speak for science in large part or small ... he only speaks for himself. He's funny, very quick, very bright and a Marxist. He is often very incitement when it comes to evolution but sometimes (as in the quote you posted) he gets a bit strange, think of it as a problem similar to Francis Collins' evangelism or Ken Miller's Catholicism.

Post Reply