What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: What If...?

Post #161

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 154 by Clownboat]

Ooh
And here's mine.
Some info that some might find relevant:

The Bible...
1 Corinthians 1:19-21
19For it is written: I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectuals I will reject. 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this system of things? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not get to know God through its wisdom, ...
Since you cannot prove that life originated from blind chance, which scientists have been looking for, for like, ever, It might be, in fact I suggest you go where the evidence leads, and accept the fact that we are the product of intelligent design. :)
...before it's too late.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #162

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 155 by Clownboat]
Clownboat wrote:There is no one else to blame. It IS your fault. I have pointed out many times that all you need to do is find a fossil that is out of place. I even provided the example of finding a rabbit in the Cambrian era.
Who else is at fault for not seeing this simple way to falsify evolution? I could have also pointed out that we humans would need to find a fused chromosome in order for human evolution to be true. Guess what? Once we were able to look, we found it, so I guess that one is off the table. Another prediction of evolution that has been shown to be true.
What?
More speculation?
Don't they get tired of it?

I guess not. Not when they can waste government money, to get their name in a book.
Take note, I'm not referring to all scientists. I'm talking about the ones out there looking for E.T., and the "mysterious" first cause.
How ironic. There's no God, but there must be E.T. My my.

The Bible writers are more famous than they are, and they weren't even looking for fame.

I admit that wolves in sheep clothing are responsible for many people running around like chickens with they heads cut off, but some do find the true sheep, who are not like that. And the information provided by the Bible writers has had a real positive influence on their lives.

Really. What have scientists offered people in the hope of a better tomorrow?
Maybe, the only hope they are banking on, is to be on the space station, by the time the earth burns up - according to their speculation.
Maybe another one is that by the year 2600, they would have found the elusive reversal process for aging, and death.

Hope is a good thing.
1 Corinthians 13:13
13Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.
...provided it's in the right thing.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: What If...?

Post #163

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 159 by theStudent]

[Replying to theStudent]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

By far the more preposterous hypothesis is of a creator, than the idea that life arose spontaneously.

Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, and many many life-essential chemicals are found in space. After that all it takes is time and energy for them to for a scaffolding. Scaffoldings breed more scaffolding, and then all we need is time for reproduction. After reproduction, it just becomes more and more efficient...

Much more likely than anything coming from nothing.

Blind chance is infinitely more likely than any divine theory you can produce. Therefore the burden of proof is upon you. Since you can prove the least scrap of your alternative hypothesis, that leaves evolution the only man standing.

Anxiously awaiting your answer on my previous post.

Thanks!
Last edited by Willum on Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #164

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 156 by Kenisaw]
Kenisaw wrote:Right, some people use that phrase.
No.
That's what it officially became.
And I already provided a link to that information.
Kenisaw wrote:Where is that contained in the theory of evolution of life first proposed by Darwin? It isn't.
Tell me, or point out to me.
Where did I ever say I was only dealing with Darwin's theory of evolution?
I never did.
That's the first mystery of the confusion solved.
Kenisaw wrote:I have a tool called a plane that I use to smooth out wood. I've also flown on a plane to various locations. Just because they are spelled the same and pronounced the same doesn't mean their context is the same.

Hopefully this clears up your misunderstanding about a word being used in two different ways...
:-s
No.
You just left me scratching my head, in confusion.

As far as I remember, I never had a misunderstanding.
I knew clearly that I was dealing with all the theories of evolution.
You are the ones who had the misunderstanding.

Even now...
I take back what I said.
That's the first mystery of the confusion still unsolved.

Thanks for trying though.
I believe you mean well. :)
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #165

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 157 by Willum]
Willum wrote:I do find you have a major mis-conception based on a post in another forum. You seem to think, that like the Bible, science only gets one chance to get it right.

That's like expecting a child to get all his math problems right. Science is a process of successive approximation. You get better, you learn more, you get better... etc.. So, if paleontologists got it wrong the first time, well, have they improved? Do they ascribe to the same principles and conclusions the first one did? No. What about now? It is very well agreed to, now, with few new proposals and refinements.
No.
I understand that some science is a bundle of guesses and fails.
I also understand that some science will get a lot of hits, because it is not built just on a bundle of baseless ideas.
For example
The way mathematics works, is by starting with the basics, and building on each equation.
Science uses this method too, in many areas.
That's why they successfully achieve advances, for example, in medicine.
They build on what they already know is a fact - not a speculation.

Speculations, on the other hand, lead to many, many, many misses.
Willum wrote:Finally, you mocked the humanzee, however. You must consider, there is more, better and immediately analogous evidence for the humanzee then anything in the Bible. We can do a comparison if you like. But I think you must admit it is true.

How do you stand on that?

Respectfully,
All sport aside...
Let's say you were a sea faring captain.
Someone built a ship for you, and told you that this ship will get you through any storm, any battle, and it can be utilized to handle any new threat.
For over a decade you saw proof that the engineer's words proved true - The ship took you through the most severe of storms, and came out without a scratch. It took you through the severest of battles, and stood firm despite being rammed, and battered against.
If the world powers came to you and said, "We have a battle ship, that would make your ship look like a David against ten Goliaths. Why not use this ship instead of yours."
Would you accept that offer?

I don't know about you, but my answer is no.
My ship has proven to be reliable. It has proven to stand the test of time.
Why should I give it up for something that has not proven itself, and for that matter may look solid, but may not be as solid as it looks?

As far as I am concerned, the Bible has been up against the fiercest of enemies, and come off victorious. It has been through the storms of this world, and stood the tests of time.
From my viewpoint, there is nothing that can win against truth.
John 18:38
38Pilate said to him: What is truth?...
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #166

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 163 by theStudent]

Hi tS,
Say you think that parables delude and deceive folks, when they are not presented by Buddha or Jesus, now answer the questions, thanks.

Point of order; Evolution is composed of two properties, and anyone educated this side of 1986 knows: One part is fact. One part is theory.

You've been shown this. Sorry it doesn't match up with any religious model. A model being so much weaker than a theory, it should bring tears to your eyes.

So, say you've got this religion, and it has a bunch of unverified stories.
So say you've got this humanzee, and it has pictures but unverified genetics.

Are you really going to make me repeat every question? and I thought we were doing so well.

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Re: What If...?

Post #167

Post by theStudent »

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 159 by theStudent]

[Replying to theStudent]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

By far the more preposterous hypothesis is of a creator, than the idea that life arose spontaneously.

Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, and many many life-essential chemicals are found in space. After that all it takes is time and energy for them to for a scaffolding. Scaffoldings breed more scaffolding, and then all we need is time for reproduction. After reproduction, it just becomes more and more efficient...

Much more likely than anything coming from nothing.

Blind chance is infinitely more likely than any divine theory you can produce. Therefore the burden of proof is upon you. Since you can prove the least scrap of your alternative hypothesis, that leaves evolution the only man standing.

Anxiously awaiting your answer on my previous post.

Thanks!
I guess you can also explain to me, what is responsible for the order (organized) in even the most complex things in existence - including the ones that would not work correctly, if things were off by just a fraction.

I'm interested in hearing your answer.
So I will ask.

How did the order come about?
Perhaps you can start with the cell divisions in the womb to produce a life form, with everything in its place.
John 8:32
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Post #168

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 164 by Willum]

Sorry.
Now you've got me lost.
What did I not answer?
John 8:32
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Re: What If...?

Post #169

Post by Willum »

[Replying to theStudent]

Sure, fantastic. Web-sniping, you ask, I answer, and you look sage through criticism...

How does order arise without intelligence?

Well, first: Organization, is you being slippery, for organization is by definition derived of intelligence. Assuming you are not playing word games, dishonestly...

There is a hexagon on the North Pole of Saturn, order, sans intelligence. There are perfect bands on Jupiter and Saturn.

If you look at stones under a microscope, you see order in crystals. Plants have dendritic structures, very like minerals. Why, evolution has, through trial and error discovered it is efficient ways to transfer liquid.

Order by successive iteration for living, competing things.

Viewed that way, randomness is a more unusual occurrence.

Quid quo pro.

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Post #170

Post by H.sapiens »

We get back to basics:

1. Religion has never falsified science.
2. Science has repeatedly falsified the bible.

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