What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #391

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 379 by theStudent]
theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 370 by Blastcat]
Blastcat wrote:You stand accused of conflating causation with accountability, which are TWO quite different propositions.

How do you plea?
You haven't told me how you understand perfection.
That comes first.

That comes first?

You make a logical error, and something ELSE comes first, ok, I'll play along and allow you to go first.

I don't really "understand" perfection, I think it's just one of those concepts that really don't refer to anything real. Like infinity or eternal of God.

We have words for these things, but yeah.. we have to make up our definitions as we go. Perfection seems to mean the quality of being free or as free as possible from all flaws or defects.

Meh, it all depends on how we want to define it. So... if you want to use the word, YOU define it. How about that one?

Did I do GOOD?

Now, what about that conflation error you made that this post was really about.. any thoughts about that at all?

:)

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Post #392

Post by H.sapiens »

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Post #393

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 384 by theStudent]

So let me get this straight Student. You're not a creationist.

Despite the fact you say
the first man.
The genetic code which was created
which were created - a male and a female.
They produce offspring, according to their kind.
A creator
All creationist buzzwords and phrases

And in your OP, you give the classic creationist dichotomy of the Theory of Evolution versus the Bible, as if those are the ONLY two options. You try to falsify evolution, as if that somehow instantly validates what the Bible says happened.

But no. Not a creationist.
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Post #394

Post by theStudent »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 384 by theStudent]

So let me get this straight Student. You're not a creationist.

Despite the fact you say
the first man.
The genetic code which was created
which were created - a male and a female.
They produce offspring, according to their kind.
A creator
All creationist buzzwords and phrases

And in your OP, you give the classic creationist dichotomy of the Theory of Evolution versus the Bible, as if those are the ONLY two options. You try to falsify evolution, as if that somehow instantly validates what the Bible says happened.

But no. Not a creationist.
Sorry
Image
I used to think that creationism referred particularly to the Fundamentalist Creationist that believe in the literal 24 hour, 6 day creation.

Now I understand that just as there are fundamental Christians, and other Christians, there are fundamental Creationist, and other Creationist.

My mistake.
Thank you. :)
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #395

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 387 by Blastcat]

The point should be clear.

If you can't, or don't have the ability to understand everything, why question what you are unable to understand?
Would that not indeed make you god?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #396

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 388 by Blastcat]
Blastcat wrote:Did I do GOOD?

Now, what about that conflation error you made that this post was really about.. any thoughts about that at all?
Very good.

I hope I can kill two birds with one stone then.
I hate to have to repeat this again.
I'll put it in my notes, in case it's asked again.

Ah. Fortunately, I was able to find it.
So this is copy -> paste.

The use of word perfect is relative.
For example
If I made some craft-work, and I got it exactly how I wanted it. I would say, "Perfect! This is perfect!"
Same with everyone else. We use the word loosely.
In the eyes of someone else, they may not consider what we have done to be perfect, because in their mind, perfect means without flaw.

So if we look at it from that angle - without flaw.
Who decides what is flawed, from what isn't.

If left to most men, everything is flawed, except his wisdom.
So if most nen think they are experts on most things - even the perfect God does not escape their judgment of him as being flawed.

However, since God is the ultimate authority on what is flawed, and what isn't (and no puny individual can take that authority from him), he decides what is perfect.

When he created everything, he said it was very good.
So everything was perfect to him.
That didn't mean they were like him, which is another level of perfection.
It simply meant, that everything was exactly how he wanted it to be.

That does not mean therefore that it was impossible for a tree to burn in fire, or a piece of rock to become dislodged from a mountain, or be affected by salt.
Or for man to make the wrong choice - which could lead to problems.

The highest level of perfection, is Jehovah God himself. He is perfect to the highest degree. He has no flaw. He is pure, holy, untarnished, incorruptible.
Superior in perfection.

I hope you understand all of that.
That is my simple way of explaining the term "perfect".
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #397

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 385 by Blastcat]
Blastcat wrote:The Bible says God created.
How is that equivalent to speaking?

You believe that God created and you AREN'T a creationist?
Okay, I admitted, I made a mistake here. I misunderstood the term.
Blastcat wrote:You believe that God created and you AREN'T a creationist?

Your right, though, I had to check Genesis.. it turns out that God didn't EVEN have to speak.. all he had to do... was.... create. No MENTION of mechanism.

HOWEVER, later on, he creates light by saying "Let there be light."... ok, that's more than just ONE word.

But it's just saying a few words. We should try that:

"Let there be good theist arguments"

Ok, didn't work for me, but for GOD.. word magic seems to be the way to do it.
Here we go again... Another person making that mistake - not understanding the Bible. But then, how could you?

You know what. Instead of telling you guys.
I'll make a suggestions.

In order to understand the Bible, you have to start at Point A.
What's Point A?
Humility.

You see... The Bible is a precious gift from God.
Now if someone took the time to give you a precious gift, and you look over it, and respond angrily, that you don't understand it, and without even asking for help from the one who gave you the gift, you throw the gift one side, and call it junk, and then start to wrongly accuse the one who gave the gift, even joining his enemies in ridiculing him.
Do you expect you would be given any help.

No - that is an outright lack of appreciation - an important ingredient for humility.

You see, what God used to have the Bible written, is the same thing he uses to help appreciative, and humble individuals understand it.

So that's my suggestion.
Blastcat wrote:Which ones are you saying are reliable, and why?
All scripture i inspired of God, and beneficial for making one complete. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
They are reliable. See here.
Blastcat wrote:And, you didn't answer what you think is going ON in science.. because if you are correct, there are THOUSANDS of scientists who are wrong, and HUNDREDS of thousands of scientific papers that are thoroughly bogus.

WHY would OTHER good scientists give a PASS to really really BAD scientists?

Any ideas about what's going ON?
I have some information on that.
Just give me a chance to dig it up.
Blastcat wrote:Oh wow... surprise to ME. I didn't see THAT one coming.
That was a mistake.
Forgive me.
Blastcat wrote:So, how do you think that life began on earth?
How do you think the universe begin, and why don't you BELIEVE in the TOE?

Your saying that you aren't a creationist sounds... pretty darn weird to me. Why don't you think that scientists haven't discovered how life changes over time?

Don't you think that scientists have found out mechanisms in nature?
I answered all these questions in this thread.
Have you not been reading my post?
Then, you'll have to do so.

Or you can take the easier route.
The Origin of Life"Five Questions Worth Asking
Was Life Created?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #398

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 355 by Kenisaw]
Kenisaw wrote:If it was imagined it would not be based on evidence. Since it is based on a LOT of evidence, from several independent lines of research, to call it imagined is intellectually dishonest of you...
The evidence is indeed imagined.
Fascinating. The fossils are imagined? The genetics? The geology? The biology? That's a borderline delusional statement on your part.
Don't forget what scientific theories are called.
Ahh, good, I see you have started resorting to the old inaccurate claims that you've been fed by your creationist masters. The "it's still a theory" line. Despite being explained over and over the difference between theory and scientific theory, you still dishonestly trot out this cultist staple of nonsense. How trite.
All that evidence is being question by biologist, and scientists in other fields.
From the big bang, to the imagery common ancestor, artistically designed so-called tree of life, to the unreliable, and inconclusive fossils record, to the amazing miraculous mutations, that did the complete unbelievable.
Ahh, good, I see you have started resorting to the old inaccurate claims that you've been fed by your creationist masters. The "Big Bang is part of evolution" line. Despite being explained over and over the difference between the Big Bang and evolution, you still dishonestly trot out this cultist staple of nonsense. How trite.
I'm not the one being dishonest.
I never used bones to deceive anyone to accept any theory.
Not bones, fossils. Can you please make an effort to get your terminology correct if you are going to continue to engage in these discussions? By the way, do you know how many people would have to be "in" an effort to "deceive" the whole world? And for what purpose would such an effort be made for?
Kenisaw wrote:Like quantum mechanics, and germ theory, and relativity? Are those magical and superstitious theories, Student?
You have to be specific if you want an answer to that, snd by specific, I don't mean giving me a page to read. Be specific.
Let's give some history, just so we can be accurate. You wrote: "I agree.
That's why I don't swallow the superstitious, and magical theories found in science books." I responded with my question about three scientific theories and asked you if they were "magical an superstitious". Despite the utter clarity and simplicity of my question, you want it clarified...

Let's make it simpler for you. Let's just ask about one. Is the theory of relativity a "magical and superstitious theory"?
Kenisaw wrote:You mean your quotes from the 1% of the scientific community that don't agree with the scientific theory of evolution? Great, you've shown that not everyone agrees. Have you shown any evidence that shows the theory cannot be true? No. Have you given an alternate theory that explains all the data and evidence as well as the scientific theory of evolution (and you've been asked for one too)? No.
Obviously you haven't read my posts, including the ones you never responded to.
The answer is yes, to both questions.
You've posted nothing of the sort. We've seen quotes (as I've mentioned), and talked about creation. That's the sum of your paltry efforts.
Kenisaw wrote:Where is the evidence for intelligent design, Student? How many times must you be asked to see your claimed empirical data? C'mon, trot it out for the world to see...
I showed you.
What am I speaking? Dutch?
You haven't produced one verifiable piece of data for your ID claims. We've yet to see proof for the god creature. Are we ever going to get the goods from you? Tijd om het bewijs te leveren! (That's Dutch for Time to produce the evidence)...

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Post #399

Post by Neatras »

[Replying to post 373 by Neatras]

As far as further experiments go, how about this...?

I am not a trained biologist, nor an evolutionary geneticist, nor am I versed in the correct fields to make grand statements about ERV's.

However, I'm going to make a layman's prediction.

1. ERV's randomly target the genetic code for insertion.

2. An ancestor to any descendant who has their genetic code altered by ERV's will have passed on this alteration.

3. Individuals who are closely related to an ancestor will share more ERV's in the appropriate location with each other, than they would with individuals who are more distantly related.

Therefore, for any ERV match between macaques (or other primates more distantly related) and humans, we should expect to see a similar match between human and chimpanzee, due to the reasons stated above; macaques are reportedly more distant in common ancestry to humans than chimpanzees are (to humans).

Based on my best evaluation of evidence provided, and despite my lack of full education on the matter, I'm courageous enough to make this prediction. That in order for ERV's to be discarded from the evidence for evolutionary common ancestry, a match between distantly "related" species must be found in ERV's that is not also found between closely "related" species.

Of the roughly 98,000 endogenous retroviruses in the human genome, I urge anyone to find evidence of a single one that is in the correct location as another primate species', without having it also appear in chimpanzees. The odds of a single ERV appearing randomly in the same location as another species' is roughly 1 in 3 billion. Finding more than that would put the nail in the coffin, if you ask me.

However, if common ancestry is true, the odds of matches appearing between related species is 1.

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Post #400

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 392 by theStudent]


"To the degree that one isn't comprehensible, there is no advancement in the discussion at hand."

- Blastcat, CE



theStudent wrote:The point should be clear.
Yeah, your points SHOULD be clear.
I agree.

The problem is that in too many cases, your points are not.

And to the degree that you don't make yourself comprehensible, there is no advancement in the discussion at hand.

In debates, or in good conversations, I would say one of the primary GOALS is clear points, and GOOD mutual understanding. CONFUSION is ... rather useless.
theStudent wrote:If you can't, or don't have the ability to understand everything, why question what you are unable to understand?
In order to debate something, I suppose that some people might want to write something that they would like others to understand.

BUT.. I suppose there are many possible motivations to post in a debate forum. Some people might just want to practice typing for example.
theStudent wrote:Would that not indeed make you god?
I don't have the bizarre conceit that I could EVER be a god. I don't even BELIEVE in the possibility of gods. To me, the concept "god" is just about MEANINGLESS....

So, I have NO idea what you mean by your rhetorical question.
And I see no PURPOSE of the rhetorical question.

So, that's why you aren't really going to get a "yes" or "no" answer.
it doesn't matter to me if it's "yes" or "no".

Either option, to me, is WRONG.

And who wants to be wrong?
Not I.

:)

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