What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

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Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckels many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #371

Post by Kenisaw »

theStudent wrote:
Kenisaw wrote:
theStudent wrote:
Willum wrote: [Replying to post 341 by theStudent]

So you are saying God is hands-on manufacturing every single cell in the world? Because that's what it would take for the process you are drawing analogy to... and so much for perfection, his manufacturing process is rife with errors.

So, I think it is pretty obvious, on both counts, the answer is 'no.' No process design, and no perfect process design.
Anything God starts, or does is perfect.
Anything you can see, that is imperfect, cannot be proven to be his doing.
Man is his doing. Man is imperfect. Your argument fails.
Your argument is both illogical and unreasonable.

If you fathered a son, who grew up, and later became a rapist, are you responsible for his actions, if you tried to raise him to be a decent respectable individual?
Read your own words! Anything your flavor of god starts, or does, is perfect. That's what you wrote. God started man. Man is imperfect. Your argument fails.

Since I am not perfect it does not matter what my son turns out to be. Your analogy is not comparable...

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Post #372

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 362 by theStudent]
theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 352 by Kenisaw]

Sorry.
My mistake.

Any
process that is started by the perfect master worker
can continue, as long as the one who started the process designed it that way.

See what I mean by mistakes - and I can't even begin to count them.
That would be crazy.
Ok, theSTUDENT, I call your bluff and double dare ya:


1. Please offer us ANY evidence for a "perfect master worker" in the universe. AND I would like his cell phone number.
2. PLEASE explain how something that CAN continue forever MUST continue forever. And I would like a cell phone that would last forever. OH.. and a car.
3.Why bother with this EXTRAVAGANT hypothetical situation of a "perfect master worker"?
4. Why don't girls think I'm as attractive as I think I am?


Ok, you don't have to answer that last question about my sad, sad life.

:(

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Post #373

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 363 by theStudent]


theStudent wrote:Anything God starts, or does is perfect.
Anything you can see, that is imperfect, cannot be proven to be his doing.
Man is his doing. Man is imperfect. Your argument fails.
theStudent wrote:Your argument is both illogical and unreasonable.

If you fathered a son, who grew up, and later became a rapist, are you responsible for his actions, if you tried to raise him to be a decent respectable individual?
You stand accused of conflating causation with accountability, which are TWO quite different propositions.

How do you plea?

:)

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Post #374

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 355 by Kenisaw]
Kenisaw wrote:If it was imagined it would not be based on evidence. Since it is based on a LOT of evidence, from several independent lines of research, to call it imagined is intellectually dishonest of you...
The evidence is indeed imagined.
Don't forget what scientific theories are called.
All that evidence is being question by biologist, and scientists in other fields.
From the big bang, to the imagery common ancestor, artistically designed so-called tree of life, to the unreliable, and inconclusive fossils record, to the amazing miraculous mutations, that did the complete unbelievable.

I'm not the one being dishonest.
I never used bones to deceive anyone to accept any theory.
Kenisaw wrote:Like quantum mechanics, and germ theory, and relativity? Are those magical and superstitious theories, Student?
You have to be specific if you want an answer to that, snd by specific, I don't mean giving me a page to read. Be specific.
Kenisaw wrote:You mean your quotes from the 1% of the scientific community that don't agree with the scientific theory of evolution? Great, you've shown that not everyone agrees. Have you shown any evidence that shows the theory cannot be true? No. Have you given an alternate theory that explains all the data and evidence as well as the scientific theory of evolution (and you've been asked for one too)? No.
Obviously you haven't read my posts, including the ones you never responded to.
The answer is yes, to both questions.
Kenisaw wrote:Where is the evidence for intelligent design, Student? How many times must you be asked to see your claimed empirical data? C'mon, trot it out for the world to see...
I showed you.
What am I speaking? Dutch?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #375

Post by H.sapiens »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 348 by H.sapiens]
H.sapiens wrote:But then how do you account for the demonstrable fact that things adapt to changes in their environment and that the clear basis for such adaptation is over production combined with "errors" in the production process?
Do you want the Biblical answer, or the scientific answer?
Here is one on science, I was able to pull up quickly, but I'll look for one or two more.
Why do we die?
Unresponsive to the question. I know why things die, that's one of the "proofs" of Darwinism.

What I was questioning is how your production line changes product.

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Post #376

Post by Neatras »

[Replying to post 371 by theStudent]

So ERV's are imaginary, then?

Oh I'm sorry, lemme go into detail then. Endogenous Retroviruses are the remains of retrovirus introduction to genomes; a retrovirus will inject its genetic code into a host organism, and it will hijack random parts of the genetic code of the cell, as a manner of 'reproducing' by telling the host cell to produce more of this retrovirus.

What's interesting is what happens when a retrovirus injects into a sperm or egg cell. It has the curious effect of creating a lasting impact on the genome of every descendant that the host will bear. It is essentially a "fossil" of retroviruses preserved not in amber, but in life itself. Quite baffling at first.

So what might this have to do with the "imaginary" evidence for evolution? Well, wouldn't you know it, ERV's are handy at doing the supposedly impossible, and supporting the idea of a "common ancestor" which you just can't bear to accept as valid.

If an ERV infects a host, and that host goes on to have offspring, and those offspring continue to produce progeny until they go on to produce entirely different species, then one would argue that we should see the relics of ERV's in the same location in both species. That is, if common ancestry is true, ERV's in species with close common ancestors would be located in the same position. Simple, no?

So when we look at the genome, and find these relics of ERV elements, what do we find? Dozens. And dozens. And dozens more. ERV's that are located in identical locations in human and chimpanzee DNA, in such startling and precise detail that the odds of these ERV's appearing in the same location in the same genetic code randomly is infinitesimally small.

So what are our options? Either:

A. Common ancestry does a heck of a job explaining this by asserting that these ERV's are remnants that existed in a common ancestor to multiple species, including humans, or...

B. God put them there to fool us into thinking common ancestry was a thing, because there is no reasonable method for discerning why literally dozens of ERV's exist in this kind of uniform pattern.

And since I'm sure you'll be running to AnswersInGenesis for answers, let me go ahead and dispel anyone's "worries": they do nothing to address the argument, and instead make leaps of logic to assert that it somehow, magically, does not support common ancestry, despite fitting in line with the theory to a T.

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Post #377

Post by theStudent »

John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #378

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 358 by Blastcat]
You think that the UNIVERSE could come into being WITH A WORD... hocus pocus or whatever you imagine that word was... and THATS what you think is great science, but if you sit in a class at OXFORD about biology and how evolution works, that's SUPERSTITION?
The Bible says God created.
How is that equivalent to speaking?
Wow.. non-skeptical about the Bible, and skeptical about ALL the scientific papers that support the theory of evolution. That's HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of papers, by THOUSANDS of really bad scientists, right?
I haven't counted the pages of the Bible, but there is a lot of information there - all reliable.

To be clear.
I am not a creationist, nor do I believe in creationism.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #379

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 366 by Kenisaw]
Kenisaw wrote:Nothing in this universe can last forever. Entropy.
Again - that's what you believe, and you already admitted that you don't possess all the knowledge in the universe, which means that to claim what you just said, is merely that - a claim, and quite possible false.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #380

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 367 by Kenisaw]
[Replying to post 368 by Kenisaw]
It's obvious from these two posts, we do not have the same view of perfection.
What's your view of perfection?
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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