New research shows that homosexuality is an advantage

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Scotracer
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New research shows that homosexuality is an advantage

Post #1

Post by Scotracer »

Here's two papers on homosexuality and how it ties in with evolution. Up until now it had been a mystery how homosexuality had still been evident in a population since it appeared to be detrimental to fertility.
New evidence of genetic factors influencing sexual orientation in men: female fecundity increase in the maternal line.

There is a long-standing debate on the role of genetic factors influencing homosexuality because the presence of these factors contradicts the Darwinian prediction according to which natural selection should progressively eliminate the factors that reduce individual fecundity and fitness. Recently, however, Camperio Ciani, Corna, and Capiluppi (Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Series B: Biological Sciences, 271, 2217-2221, 2004), comparing the family trees of homosexuals with heterosexuals, reported a significant increase in fecundity in the females related to the homosexual probands from the maternal line but not in those related from the paternal one. This suggested that genetic factors that are partly linked to the X-chromosome and that influence homosexual orientation in males are not selected against because they increase fecundity in female carriers, thus offering a solution to the Darwinian paradox and an explanation of why natural selection does not progressively eliminate homosexuals. Since then, new data have emerged suggesting not only an increase in maternal fecundity but also larger paternal family sizes for homosexuals. These results are partly conflicting and indicate the need for a replication on a wider sample with a larger geographic distribution. This study examined the family trees of 250 male probands, of which 152 were homosexuals. The results confirmed the study of Camperio Ciani et al. (2004). We observed a significant fecundity increase even in primiparous mothers, which was not evident in the previous study. No evidence of increased paternal fecundity was found; thus, our data confirmed a sexually antagonistic inheritance partly linked to the X-chromosome that promotes fecundity in females and a homosexual sexual orientation in males.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18561014
A population-genetic model indicates that if there is a gene responsible for homosexual behaviour it can readily spread in populations. The model also predicts widespread bisexuality in humans.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 5158b.html

The first shows that it is evolutionary advantageous for a society to have homosexuals and the 2nd gives credence to the "gay gene" hypothesis. In light of these two things, can religions continue to accuse homosexuality of being unnatural and/or morally wrong? And how should this research affect the socio-political nature of the debate over equal rights?
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Post #51

Post by JoeyKnothead »

T-mash wrote:
xcept wrote:oh I'm sorry... is english a second language for you? What is gat bashing? I've never heard of that word. I couldn't find it on wiki or dictionary.com. either way your post made absolutely no sense.
Really? I could. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gat
Maybe we should start doubting your 'research' if you can't even 'research' a word in a dictionary ^^
Pwnded!

What I gather from xcpet's post...

The first word of a sentence should be capitalated.

"english" should be capitalated.

One who argues about another being incorrect oughta ensure they're correct when they speak.

Yeah, I know I used some funky spellings and such, and I'd bet the vast majority that read this will be able to understand what I write, and why I write it as I do.

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Post #52

Post by xcept »

Yes, I should've clarified, there is no english word called gat. I assumed since we were debating in english and not in Hangul that I would be referring to such. I saw all those examples as well but nothing in english.

Homosexuality is a choice just as doing crack is a choice. Once they do it then they feel that must be what they are supposed to do. That's how evil works. The most used tool of satan is discouragement. A drug addict, sex addict merely needs to be encouraged to know they can rise above their circumstances and get out of their situation. That's what Christ does, He encourages us and gives us all Hope. Without hope we are.... hopeless.

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Post #53

Post by Goat »

xcept wrote:Yes, I should've clarified, there is no english word called gat. I assumed since we were debating in english and not in Hangul that I would be referring to such. I saw all those examples as well but nothing in english.

Homosexuality is a choice just as doing crack is a choice. Once they do it then they feel that must be what they are supposed to do. That's how evil works. The most used tool of satan is discouragement. A drug addict, sex addict merely needs to be encouraged to know they can rise above their circumstances and get out of their situation. That's what Christ does, He encourages us and gives us all Hope. Without hope we are.... hopeless.
You are making a lot of unsupported claims here.. and yes, btw, there is an english word 'gat', which shows your research is less than accurate.

I would love to see you show objective evidence of 'satan'. I would like you to provide an article from a 'peer reviewed' medical journal (not a religious web site) that says homosexuality is like a 'drug addict', and that homosexuality is being a 'sex addict' .

While you say that 'Christ' give hope, I would like to see evidence that 'Christ' is actually giving hope, and it not the placebo effect. Can you give me a link to a double blind experiment that shows 'Christ' gives hope? Can you demonstrate with any evidence what so ever that you can't have 'hope' without 'Christ'?

IF you can't, I respectfully request you withdraw your claim.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #54

Post by xcept »

Sure once you can tell me the weight of a chicken using a 12" ruler.

Can't exactly do that I'm sure. because you would have the wrong tools to do the job requested. You cannot measure the supernatural with the natural. Imposible.

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Post #55

Post by T-mash »

xcept wrote:Sure once you can tell me the weight of a chicken using a 12" ruler.

Can't exactly do that I'm sure. because you would have the wrong tools to do the job requested. You cannot measure the supernatural with the natural. Imposible.
All right. Take a 12 inch ruler and drop it in a tank of water and see how high the water level rises. Then do the same for the chicken. If you compare both you will see how many times greater the mass of a chicken is compared to that of a ruler. Then you multiply the weight of said ruler by that number and voila, weight of a chicken is shown.

I can also use physics (gravity and velocity) to do it if you prefer.
xcept wrote:Yes, I should've clarified, there is no english word called gat. I assumed since we were debating in english and not in Hangul that I would be referring to such. I saw all those examples as well but nothing in english.

Homosexuality is a choice just as doing crack is a choice. Once they do it then they feel that must be what they are supposed to do. That's how evil works. The most used tool of satan is discouragement. A drug addict, sex addict merely needs to be encouraged to know they can rise above their circumstances and get out of their situation. That's what Christ does, He encourages us and gives us all Hope. Without hope we are.... hopeless.
Then explain to us why some people commit suicide when they find out they are gay? Why didn't they just choose not to be?
Isn’t this enough? Just this world?
Just this beautiful, complex, wonderfully unfathomable natural world?
How does it so fail to hold our attention
That we have to diminish it with the invention
Of cheap, man-made Myths and Monsters?
- Tim Minchin

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Post #56

Post by xcept »

T-mash wrote:
xcept wrote:Sure once you can tell me the weight of a chicken using a 12" ruler.

Can't exactly do that I'm sure. because you would have the wrong tools to do the job requested. You cannot measure the supernatural with the natural. Imposible.
All right. Take a 12 inch ruler and drop it in a tank of water and see how high the water level rises. Then do the same for the chicken. If you compare both you will see how many times greater the mass of a chicken is compared to that of a ruler. Then you multiply the weight of said ruler by that number and voila, weight of a chicken is shown.

I can also use physics (gravity and velocity) to do it if you prefer.
xcept wrote:Yes, I should've clarified, there is no english word called gat. I assumed since we were debating in english and not in Hangul that I would be referring to such. I saw all those examples as well but nothing in english.

Homosexuality is a choice just as doing crack is a choice. Once they do it then they feel that must be what they are supposed to do. That's how evil works. The most used tool of satan is discouragement. A drug addict, sex addict merely needs to be encouraged to know they can rise above their circumstances and get out of their situation. That's what Christ does, He encourages us and gives us all Hope. Without hope we are.... hopeless.
Then explain to us why some people commit suicide when they find out they are gay? Why didn't they just choose not to be?
because of hopelessness and discouragement. Satans strongest weapons against us. Someone who understands there are other options or hope in their life will continue on. Someone with a strong belief in Christ has this hope. And no, I didn't say use a tank of water. A wooden ruler will float so will a chicken. You see the point of the statement but you choose to act ignorantly with the answer shows your hardened heart towards learning the truth. Nothing more to discuss with you.

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Post #57

Post by T-mash »

xcept wrote:because of hopelessness and discouragement. Satans strongest weapons against us.
Don't you mean god's strongest weapon against us? It's not Satan here that is against gay people, it is God. Satan is more of a moral relativist with questionable motives, god is a primitive cavemen.
xcept wrote: Someone who understands there are other options or hope in their life will continue on.
There are plenty of options indeed. Like accept that it is natural and give the finger to any narrow-minded idiot that tries to say otherwise based on his ancient mythology that has clouded his judgement and has caused him to adopt and maintain a pathetic world-view that is currently considered to be immoral. Was that sort of what you were thinking too?
xcept wrote:And no, I didn't say use a tank of water. A wooden ruler will float so will a chicken.
Not with a brick attached to it they won't. And it is perfectly fine if they float... the water level still rises...

xcept wrote: You see the point of the statement but you choose to act ignorantly with the answer shows your hardened heart towards learning the truth. Nothing more to discuss with you.
It's physically impossible to harden your heart and it is also not what you use to learn.
Last edited by T-mash on Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Isn’t this enough? Just this world?
Just this beautiful, complex, wonderfully unfathomable natural world?
How does it so fail to hold our attention
That we have to diminish it with the invention
Of cheap, man-made Myths and Monsters?
- Tim Minchin

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Post #58

Post by Scotracer »

xcept wrote:
T-mash wrote:
xcept wrote:Sure once you can tell me the weight of a chicken using a 12" ruler.

Can't exactly do that I'm sure. because you would have the wrong tools to do the job requested. You cannot measure the supernatural with the natural. Imposible.
All right. Take a 12 inch ruler and drop it in a tank of water and see how high the water level rises. Then do the same for the chicken. If you compare both you will see how many times greater the mass of a chicken is compared to that of a ruler. Then you multiply the weight of said ruler by that number and voila, weight of a chicken is shown.

I can also use physics (gravity and velocity) to do it if you prefer.
xcept wrote:Yes, I should've clarified, there is no english word called gat. I assumed since we were debating in english and not in Hangul that I would be referring to such. I saw all those examples as well but nothing in english.

Homosexuality is a choice just as doing crack is a choice. Once they do it then they feel that must be what they are supposed to do. That's how evil works. The most used tool of satan is discouragement. A drug addict, sex addict merely needs to be encouraged to know they can rise above their circumstances and get out of their situation. That's what Christ does, He encourages us and gives us all Hope. Without hope we are.... hopeless.
Then explain to us why some people commit suicide when they find out they are gay? Why didn't they just choose not to be?
because of hopelessness and discouragement. Satans strongest weapons against us. Someone who understands there are other options or hope in their life will continue on. Someone with a strong belief in Christ has this hope. And no, I didn't say use a tank of water. A wooden ruler will float so will a chicken. You see the point of the statement but you choose to act ignorantly with the answer shows your hardened heart towards learning the truth. Nothing more to discuss with you.
Wow you really have a lot of science to learn. You don't even know Archimedes principles of buoyancy...

The Chicken will displace its mass of water if it floats and its volume if submerged. A 10 year old knows this! Oh and you never said it was a wooden ruler. That is what we call shifting goalposts - a common theistic tactic.

Oh and on the whole "sexuality changing" issue:

The American Psychological Association declared Wednesday that mental health professionals should not tell gay clients they can become straight through therapy or other treatments.

In a resolution adopted by the APAs governing council, and in an accompanying report, the association issued its most comprehensive repudiation of "reparative therapy" - a concept espoused by a small but persistent group of therapists, often allied with religious conservatives, who maintain gays can change.

No solid evidence exists that such change is likely, says the resolution, adopted by a 125-4 vote. The APA said some research suggests that efforts to produce change could be harmful, inducing depression and suicidal tendencies.

Instead of seeking such change, the APA urged therapists to consider multiple options - that could range from celibacy to switching churches - for helping clients live spiritually rewarding lives in instances where their sexual orientation and religious faith conflict.

The APA had criticized reparative therapy in the past, but a six-member task force added weight to this position by examining 83 studies on sexual orientation change conducted since 1960. Its report was endorsed by the APAs governing council in Toronto, where the 150,000-member associations annual meeting is being held this weekend.

The report breaks new ground in its detailed and nuanced assessment of how therapists should deal with gay clients struggling to remain loyal to a religious faith that disapproves of homosexuality.

Judith Glassgold, a Highland Park, N.J., psychologist who chaired the task force, said she hoped the document could help calm the polarized debate between religious conservatives who believe in the possibility of changing sexual orientation and the many mental health professionals who reject that option.

"Both sides have to educate themselves better," Glassgold said in an interview. "The religious psychotherapists have to open up their eyes to the potential positive aspects of being gay or lesbian. Secular therapists have to recognize that some people will choose their faith over their sexuality."

In dealing with gay clients from conservative faiths, says the report, therapists should be "very cautious" about suggesting treatments aimed at altering their same-sex attractions.

"Practitioners can assist clients through therapies that do not attempt to change sexual orientation, but rather involve acceptance, support and identity exploration and development without imposing a specific identity outcome," the report says.

"We have to challenge people to be creative," said Glassgold.

She suggested that devout clients could focus on overarching aspects of religion such as hope and forgiveness to transcend negative beliefs about homosexuality, and either remain part of their original faith within its limits - for example, by embracing celibacy - or find a faith that welcomes gays.

"Theres no evidence to say that change therapies work, but these vulnerable people are tempted to try them, and when they dont work, they feel doubly terrified," Glassgold said. "You should be honest with people and say, This is not likely to change your sexual orientation, but we can help explore what options you have."

One of the largest organizations promoting the possibility of changing sexual orientation is Exodus International, a network of ministries whose core message is "Freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ."

Its president, Alan Chambers, describes himself as someone who "overcame unwanted same-sex attraction." He and other evangelicals met with APA representatives after the task force formed in 2007, and he expressed satisfaction with parts of the report that emerged.

"Its a positive step - simply respecting someones faith is a huge leap in the right direction," Chambers said. "But Id go further. Dont deny the possibility that someones feelings might change."

An evangelical psychologist, Mark Yarhouse of Regent University, praised the APA report for urging a creative approach to gay clients religious beliefs but - like Chambers - disagreed with its skepticism about changing sexual orientation.

Yarhouse and a colleague, Professor Stanton Jones of Wheaton College, will be releasing findings at the APA meeting Friday from their six-year study of people who went through Exodus programs. More than half of 61 subjects either converted to heterosexuality or "disidentified" with homosexuality while embracing chastity, their study said.

To Jones and Yarhouse, their findings prove change is possible for some people, and on average the attempt to change will not be harmful.

The APA task force took as a starting point the belief that homosexuality is a normal variant of human sexuality, not a disorder, and that it nonetheless remains stigmatized in ways that can have negative consequences.

The report said the subgroup of gays interested in changing their sexual orientation has evolved over the decades and now is comprised mostly of well-educated white men whose religion is an important part of their lives and who participate in conservative faiths that frown on homosexuality.

"Religious faith and psychology do not have to be seen as being opposed to each other," the report says, endorsing approaches "that integrate concepts from the psychology of religion and the modern psychology of sexual orientation."

Perry Halkitis, a New York University psychologist who chairs the APA committee dealing with gay and lesbian issues, praised the report for its balance.

"Anyone who makes decisions based on good science will be satisfied," he said. "As a clinician, you have to deal with the whole person, and for some people, faith is a very important aspect of who they are."

The report also addressed the issue of whether adolescents should be subjected to therapy aimed at altering their sexual orientation. Any such approach should "maximize self-determination" and be undertaken only with the youths consent, the report said.

Wayne Besen, a gay-rights activist who has sought to discredit the so-called "ex-gay" movement, welcomed the APA findings.

"Ex-gay therapy is a profound travesty that has led to pointless tragedies, and we are pleased that the APA has addressed this psychological scourge," Besen said.
http://www.edgechicago.com/index.php?ch ... =&id=94673

All the experts against you. I wonder who is more reliable :roll:
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Post #59

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 55:
T-mash wrote:
xcept wrote: Sure once you can tell me the weight of a chicken using a 12" ruler.
All right. Take a 12 inch ruler and drop it in a tank of water and see how high the water level rises. Then do the same for the chicken. If you compare both you will see how many times greater the mass of a chicken is compared to that of a ruler. Then you multiply the weight of said ruler by that number and voila, weight of a chicken is shown.

I can also use physics (gravity and velocity) to do it if you prefer.
Pwnded.

Again.

Momma, grab me up one o' them ruler thingies and a chicken, I'm gonna become a scientist!

I point this out so the observer can understand that when one is repeatedly wrong on the issues, all their claims should be met with at least a small amount of scepticism.

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Post #60

Post by thatoneguy »

xcept wrote:
T-mash wrote:
xcept wrote:Sure once you can tell me the weight of a chicken using a 12" ruler.

Can't exactly do that I'm sure. because you would have the wrong tools to do the job requested. You cannot measure the supernatural with the natural. Imposible.
All right. Take a 12 inch ruler and drop it in a tank of water and see how high the water level rises. Then do the same for the chicken. If you compare both you will see how many times greater the mass of a chicken is compared to that of a ruler. Then you multiply the weight of said ruler by that number and voila, weight of a chicken is shown.

I can also use physics (gravity and velocity) to do it if you prefer.
xcept wrote:Yes, I should've clarified, there is no english word called gat. I assumed since we were debating in english and not in Hangul that I would be referring to such. I saw all those examples as well but nothing in english.

Homosexuality is a choice just as doing crack is a choice. Once they do it then they feel that must be what they are supposed to do. That's how evil works. The most used tool of satan is discouragement. A drug addict, sex addict merely needs to be encouraged to know they can rise above their circumstances and get out of their situation. That's what Christ does, He encourages us and gives us all Hope. Without hope we are.... hopeless.
Then explain to us why some people commit suicide when they find out they are gay? Why didn't they just choose not to be?
because of hopelessness and discouragement. Satans strongest weapons against us. Someone who understands there are other options or hope in their life will continue on. Someone with a strong belief in Christ has this hope. And no, I didn't say use a tank of water. A wooden ruler will float so will a chicken. You see the point of the statement but you choose to act ignorantly with the answer shows your hardened heart towards learning the truth. Nothing more to discuss with you.


Does the crack addict, after he has become addicted to crack, choose to be addicted to crack? Perhaps he chooses to initially take the crack, but the actual state of being addicted is a biological process that is a choice. He could not choose to use crack regularly and not become addicted.

Now, you could say that crack addiction is a choice in so much as the addict chooses to start taking crack. But homosexuality has a key difference. There is no first action that

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