Creationists: give a coherent definition of "kind"

[Haven]

In last week's debate between young-earth creationist (YEC) Ken Ham and science advocate Bill Nye, the former tried to get around the problem of too many animals on the Ark by saying that Noah didn't bring two of each species, but two of each kind of animal. Among YECs, Ham is hardly alone in using this term as a stand-in for actual biological taxonomy, and, like other YECs, he didn't offer a scientifically rigorous or even logically coherent definition of the term (he said it was 'like a family,' but made an exception for the family Hominidae, which includes both humans and the other great apes).

Can our resident creationists do better?

Debate questions: What, in biological terms, is a 'kind?' How does this term relate to biological categories, like 'species,' 'genus,' or 'family?' How many 'kinds' are there? What scientific justification do you have for using this term instead of well-established biological taxonomy?

Lastly, if you can't provide a coherent definition, will you agree to stop using the word 'kind' in debates about biology?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 109 by Volbrigade]

Your right there is only one Noah's are flood myth It's a pretty good fictional story I can't wait for the upcoming movie it looks pretty cool.

[Goat]

[Replying to post 108 by DanieltheDragon]

How many floods from ancient times have involved the release of the "fountains of the deep"?

What evidence do you have that ANY of them had the release of the 'fountains of the deep'. Can you show it's more than a story, exaggerated at that'

How many have been associated with 40 days and nights of rain, which were a product of that event -- not the source of the flood, as is commonly mistaken?

Can you show any of them were, aside from ancient stories? How many stories mention 40 days and 40 nights aside from the Bible? What is the evidence that it is more than just a story of a localized flood that got exaggerated?

How many local floods from ancient times can trace a detailed genealogy from the time of the their occurrence?

How many stories make up genealogies?? Can you show it's more than a story?

How many produced a global fossil record of their impact, formed by the massive movements of soils and plasticized rock, which rapidly encased countless specimens on a global scale? How many involved rapid continental plate subduction, as entire tectonic plates sank at the point of collision with others, creating rifting and fissuring and vulcanism on a global scale, exposing magma to sea water in massive amounts, creating superheated steam jets rocketing into the stratosphere at supersonic speed, where they cooled to produced the rain?

If you said "only one. The Biblical Flood of Noah..."

Go to the head of the class.

Now, can you show that this 'global fossil record' was a single flood. To do that. you have to show that the date of all these fossils are of the same time period.

You also have to explain how the flood managed to percipate the various layers the way they did. Can you show that the fossil layers were caused by a flood?

Can you also define what a biblical KIND is?

BTW. How can two layers from the 'Flood' sandwich a layer that is from compressed sand in a desert, as happened in the grand canon. Can you explain that to me?

[Wolfbitn]

[Replying to post 104 by Goat]

So youre saying then that ALL the ancestors of these ancient civilizations worldwide actually OBSERVED a flood

Floods tend to happen very couple of dozen years.. but the REALLY big ones happen often enough.. yes.

The thing is... there is no evidence the the flood that triggered of the various stories was the SAME flood. Flood happen all the time. Can you demonstrate that there was a single flood that triggered off all these stories??

ANd, while we are at it, you can give a coherent definition of KIND too. Can you describe what a KIND is so that is has some kind of valid meaning. Show your work.

I believe that the fact that ALL of the earliest writings we have from the most ancient times of the most ancient civilizations worldwide ALL recount a worldwide flood, it is foolish and biased to dismiss them, and it is quite apparent they most likely issued from a common source. Otherwise if you want to insist it is myth, you have to call this worldwide MOST ANCIENT occurrence a very unlikely coincidence. Scientifically speaking it therefore deserves merit to be studied and considered.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 112 by Wolfbitn]

Do all of these myths have the exact same date of the event in question?

[Goat]

[Replying to post 104 by Goat]

So youre saying then that ALL the ancestors of these ancient civilizations worldwide actually OBSERVED a flood

Floods tend to happen very couple of dozen years.. but the REALLY big ones happen often enough.. yes.

The thing is... there is no evidence the the flood that triggered of the various stories was the SAME flood. Flood happen all the time. Can you demonstrate that there was a single flood that triggered off all these stories??

ANd, while we are at it, you can give a coherent definition of KIND too. Can you describe what a KIND is so that is has some kind of valid meaning. Show your work.

I believe that the fact that ALL of the earliest writings we have from the most ancient times of the most ancient civilizations worldwide ALL recount a worldwide flood, it is foolish and biased to dismiss them, and it is quite apparent they most likely issued from a common source. Otherwise if you want to insist it is myth, you have to call this worldwide MOST ANCIENT occurrence a very unlikely coincidence. Scientifically speaking it therefore deserves merit to be studied and considered.

Yes, you believe it. However, your belief is nothing to me. I want you to SHOW it, and back it up with evidence.

I also notice you are ignoring givng the term 'Kind' a meaningful definition.

[Nickman]

[Replying to post 104 by Goat]

So youre saying then that ALL the ancestors of these ancient civilizations worldwide actually OBSERVED a flood

Floods tend to happen very couple of dozen years.. but the REALLY big ones happen often enough.. yes.

The thing is... there is no evidence the the flood that triggered of the various stories was the SAME flood. Flood happen all the time. Can you demonstrate that there was a single flood that triggered off all these stories??

ANd, while we are at it, you can give a coherent definition of KIND too. Can you describe what a KIND is so that is has some kind of valid meaning. Show your work.

I believe that the fact that ALL of the earliest writings we have from the most ancient times of the most ancient civilizations worldwide ALL recount a worldwide flood, it is foolish and biased to dismiss them, and it is quite apparent they most likely issued from a common source. Otherwise if you want to insist it is myth, you have to call this worldwide MOST ANCIENT occurrence a very unlikely coincidence. Scientifically speaking it therefore deserves merit to be studied and considered.

Since our human race came from the same place and distributed itself over the Earth, we would expect to see a story such as this flood myth being retold and changed by subsequent cultures. This is not evidence for its reality. For that, we look at the rocks, and they tell us a different story. If there were a flood, we would not have layers, we would have one layer that contains many different minerals and sediments. An easy way to prove the flood wrong is to fill a clear tank full of water and add all manner of minerals. Put dirt, sand, rock and whatever in there. Then stir it to create a homogenous mixture and let it settle. You will get one layer with heavier minerals on bottom. Now do the same test and add in each ingredient slowly and do not stir. You will get layers. This is how the sedimentary rock layers are formed, and what we see in the geological time scale. Not a flood scenario. If you can find a layer that is like that, you would turn science on its head.

[Haven]

So far 116 posts and not one creationist has provided a coherent, scientifically valid definition of "kind" (Volbrigade said 'common descent,' but this would place all living things into one "kind," which sort of defeats the purpose of the word). Keep in mind that creationism doesn't even get off the ground unless this term can be defined, as it is central to both the creation story and the flood story.

Would anyone like to try to give a coherent definition, or will you admit that the term is useless and stick to using scientifically valid taxonomy?

[Nickman]

So far 116 posts and not one creationist has provided a coherent, scientifically valid definition of "kind" (Volbrigade said 'common descent,' but this would place all living things into one "kind," which sort of defeats the purpose of the word). Keep in mind that creationism doesn't even get off the ground unless this term can be defined, as it is central to both the creation story and the flood story.

Would anyone like to try to give a coherent definition, or will you admit that the term is useless and stick to using scientifically valid taxonomy?

That's because "kind" is an ambiguous term that allows Christians to make any claim they want and continue to perpetuate their beliefs.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 117 by Nickman]


Lets see there were only 2 kinds of animals on the arc. prove me wrong!!

[Nickman]

[Replying to post 117 by Nickman]


Lets see there were only 2 kinds of animals on the arc. prove me wrong!!

I can't. That's the point. It is a great tactic that cannot be proven either way.