What does Intelligent Design prove?

[man]

What does Intelligent Design prove?

I must have asked that question a thousand times in various forms and comment sections and not one single person has ever said, It proves there is a god.

Why is that?

[Divine Insight]

For me the question is quite hypothetical.

Intelligent Design would be evidence of an intelligent designer. However, there is a huge problem here because you are asking "What does Intelligent Design prove?"

And my question to you would be, "Exactly where do you think we see any intelligent design in nature?"

The illusion of Intelligent Design is most likely due to a total ignorance of physics, chemistry, thermodynamics, and biological evolution.

Moreover, after understanding these principles of the natural world, even if we were going to suggest that there might be some sort of intelligent Design at that point, the so-called Intelligent Design would have been in the laws of nature and the material contained within the universe that, on its own, can evolve into highly complex creatures. It most certainly wouldn't be a designer who actually sat down and designed every individual complex thing that exists in the world on an individual basis, and "baby-sat" the processes to cause them to come into being specifically.

So the real question would be to ask whether an Intelligent Designer would even be needed to create a universe that contains the matter and energy configurations that our universe contains. Stuff that can, on its own by natural laws, evolve into highly complex living organisms.

Would there really need to be an Intelligent Designer behind that?

And a second question would then be, "If there was an Intelligent Designer behind this world then why isn't this world very intelligently designed?

Animals that naturally eat other animals to survive is not what I would personally consider to be a very Intelligent Design.

This world seems to be far more likely to be the result of some sort of happenstance than the result of any Intelligent Design.

So I personally don't even see any evidence for any Intelligent Design. To the contrary the bulk of the world appears to me to be pretty badly designed in many ways. Just look at all the diseases, birth defects, natural disasters and dangers in this world. I just don't see anything that appears to have been intelligently designed. Save for the things that humans themselves have designed, but even those things are often highly questionable if we really want to ask just how intelligently they were actually designed.

I am often upset with how engineers have designed things. Although I must also confess that in some cases they have done a pretty good job.

But a world filled with disease and birth defects, etc.? Where is there any intelligence in designing pathogens to attack the best creatures of the design? Who designed those?

It seems to me that the idea that they just evolved naturally because they could is a much more rational conclusion to draw. A designer who purposefully designed all of the horrible diseases in this world would need to have been pretty malevolent don't you think?

By the way, welcome to the forums. I just noticed this thread is your first post.

[H.sapiens]

[Replying to post 1 by man]

Your question is backwards, before one asks what ID proves one must "prove" ID, and that has not been done. One might ask, "What would ID prove were it to be demonstrated" or some such similar construct.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

What does Intelligent Design prove?

The god concept has the power to over-rule established scientific fact in the mind of the adherent.

I must have asked that question a thousand times in various forms and comment sections and not one single person has ever said, It proves there is a god.

Why is that?

'Cause it don't.

[man]

The people that push ID obviously think it proves there is a god, but none of them want to admit that for some reason. ID has no real value aside from that. It's not going to contribute to any great medical discoveries or advance science itself in any meaningful way. So, what exactly is going on in their minds? Could it be possible that they know they are fighting a losing battle?

[Divine Insight]

The people that push ID obviously think it proves there is a god, but none of them want to admit that for some reason.

So, what exactly is going on in their minds?

It could be that the people who think that ID is "obvious" don't feel that it proves there is a God, but rather they feel that it makes the existence of a God "obvious".

The problem is that ID is not at all obvious. In fact, just the opposite is true.

It might also be informative to understand that this line of thinking comes directly from the Christian dogma. Paul specifically wrote:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Paul is basically taking the position that the very existence of our complex world with living entities including ourselves is obvious and therefore the existence of a creator is also obvious. So even Paul is not claiming that this is "proof of the existence of God", but rather he's claiming that God's existence is simply "obvious".

Of course this is extremely flawed reasoning. But there it is right in the doctrine of this religion. So this is why these religious people take this position.

One problem with Paul's thinking is that even if the existence of the world made it obvious that there must be a creator God, that still wouldn't support his particular religion of religious views. If there exists a God then any religion might be true. Or maybe even some God exists for which there does not even exist an earthy religion.

In short, even if a God did exist it wouldn't support Paul's Christianity.

So this is a bogus argument for Christianity in any case.

But even more importantly the existence of a complex world does not automatically imply that it was "purposefully designed" by some God anyway. That very thinking is extreme flawed thinking and is not logical or reasonable.

As I say, why would a purposeful designer also design some horrible diseases and animals that naturally compete and eat each other? That makes no sense. Therefore our world does NOT suggest that it was intelligently designed at all. To the contrary, if it was purposefully designed it was a very unintelligent design to be certain. In fact it would be very easy to make an argument that it was an extremely malevolent "design" if done on purpose with forethought.

So if our world was designed by a God, then we were created by an extremely malevolent God.

[Delphi]

We cannot dogmatically rule out the possibility that our Universe was created by a creator and/or designed by a designer. Perhaps even a committee of multiple intelligences and/or designers. Perhaps an intelligent unicorn may have done it.

Unfortunately, the concept of ID has no explanatory power, it makes no predictions, it is poorly defined, and it cannot be verified nor falsified.

For such a superintelligence to be postulated as a cause, one must demonstrate that this ID exists and that there is a causal relationship from the ID towards that which it has caused.

If you can't demonstrate that X exists, OR that X caused Y, it would be irrational to accept that X caused Y.

So, we find ourselves without direct evidence of this ID, and we certainly cannot demonstrate that any particular ID has indeed designed nor created anything.

[theStudent]

What does Intelligent Design prove?

I must have asked that question a thousand times in various forms and comment sections and not one single person has ever said, It proves there is a god.

Why is that?

I would answer this question this way.

What is the explanation for life?
A. Evolution
B. Intelligent design

What does the evidence demonstrate?
The Brain is a marvel of Creation.

Neurons
[youtube][/youtube]
Many neurons have a long taillike structure called an axon. The other fibers that spread out from the neuron are tiny dendrites, which resemble branches and twigs on a budding tree. These provide a typical neuron with thousands of links to other neurons. The neurons never actually touch each other. Across the intervening gap, called the synapse, tiny amounts of chemicals flow, adding a new dimension to the complexity of the whole structure.
The number of possible different combinations of synaptic connections in your brain is larger than the total number of atomic particles that make up the known universe, estimates one expert.



Neurologist Dr. Richard Restak

The total number of connections within the vast network of the brains neuronal system is truly astronomical.

How does one begin to comprehend the functioning of an organ with somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 billion neurons with a million billion synapses (connections), and with an overall firing rate of perhaps 10 million billion times per second?

How could an organ such as the brain, which contains between ten billion and one hundred billion cells, ever develop from a single cell, the egg?

Neuroscientist Gerald Edelman

A match heads worth of the brain contains about a billion connections that can combine in ways which can only be described as hyperastronomical"on the order of ten followed by millions of zeros.

Biologist James Watson (codiscoverer of the physical structure of DNA)

The brain, is the most complex thing we have yet discovered in our universe.

My theory
If the brain evolved, as many scientists claims then the body of the organism could not function properly, and therefore would prevent many necessary requirements for survival.
Furthermore, reproduction, natural selection, or survival of the fittest is impossible - one to the power of a billion billion billion zeros.




Why is the brain important in the human body?
The front area of the brain is called the cerebrum, the brains largest part. It plays a key role in controlling body temperature, movement, vision, hearing, touch, learning, judgment, problem solving and emotions.
In front of the cerebellum lies the brain stem, which serves as the bodys main control panel that transmits messages between the brain and the rest of the body, says Atlanta Brain and Spine Care. The brain stem controls essential body functions, such as consciousness, breathing, cardiac function and involuntary muscle movements. The back of the brain is known as the cerebellum, which is mainly a movement control center responsible for fine motor skills, voluntary muscle movements, and balance, posture and equilibrium maintenance.

Guytons Textbook of Medical Physiology

Behind our prefrontal cortex is a strip stretching across the head " THE MOTOR CORTEX. It contains billions of neurons that connect with our muscles. It too has features that contribute to our being far different from apes or other animals. The primary motor cortex gives us (1) an exceptional capability to use the hand, the fingers, and the thumb to perform highly dexterous manual tasks, and (2) use of the mouth, lips, tongue, and facial muscles to talk.

http://brainconnection.brainhq.com/2013 ... -movement/

The Primary Motor Cortex
Every voluntary movement you make is controlled through the primary motor cortex, or PMC, which is located in the back of the frontal lobe, just about at the top of your head. Signals in your brain are sent to the muscles, telling them to make a movement. For example, sometime after you woke up this morning you might have thought to yourself, 'I need to get up.' Without giving it a second thought, a short while later you were standing by your bed and making your next decision of the day. In that brief period of time your PMC and other parts of your brain were doing a tremendous number of calculations to avoid having you fall in a heap on the floor.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... t_index]=0
For more than a decade, Frdric Dumoulin has worked in the field of pharmaceutical research at Ghent University in Belgium. At one time he was an atheist. But later Frdric became convinced that God created life.

My Conclusion
Just this one piece of evidence convinces me that B, intelligent design, has been demonstrated. Especially when I place it alongside other proven facts - A simple house requires a builder, how much more a complex brain requires, a master builder, a mathematical genius, if you will. Not blind chance.

[Delphi]

Thank you for this information, theStudent. We are all aware of this info, but it is always amazing to hear it again.

We can all agree that we are very complex organisms.

Unfortunately, one cannot logically connect biological complexity to the concept of a deity.

This seems like a big fat god of the gaps argument to me.

The glaring problem is that you cannot show that your creator exists, you cannot demonstrate by what means your creator created, and this entire postulation cannot be demonstrated, verified, nor falsified by any means.

The elephant in this epistemological room is that there is NO evidence that any of any supposed designer(s) had a hand in creating anything. ANYTHING.

You can assert that Joe built my brain, but if you can't even show that Joe exists you've got a major problem.

[theStudent]

Thank you for this information, theStudent. We are all aware of this info, but it is always amazing to hear it again.

We can all agree that we are very complex organisms.

Unfortunately, one cannot logically connect biological complexity to the concept of a deity.

This seems like a big fat god of the gaps argument to me.

The glaring problem is that you cannot show that your creator exists, you cannot demonstrate by what means your creator created, and this entire postulation cannot be demonstrated, verified, nor falsified by any means.

The elephant in this epistemological room is that there is NO evidence that any of any supposed designer(s) had a hand in creating anything. ANYTHING.

You can assert that Joe built my brain, but if you can't even show that Joe exists you've got a major problem.

No.
The evidence has been demonstrated.
Just because someone shuts their eyes to evidence, does not nullify it.

Here is another simple demonstration of that.
If I saw a huge rock, or rocks carved out in a concave close to the sea.
I could easily conclude that over time, the salt water from the sea as it's waves bashed against the rocks, caused that effect. Same with nearby caves.
I can say this because I see it demonstrated.

It is demonstrated, that a simple house requires a builder.
In fact, not only a house, everything, inducing sculpted rock, machinery artificial flowers, etc.
Thus, someone was responsible for designing the brain to work, and that person is far greater than you and I.
So to complain that no one has brought him and shown you, is a poor excuse to an obvious no contest.
It's obviously grabbing at straws.