Misconceptions about Islam:

[HaLi8993]

There are many misconceptions that exist within the field of Islam one being the topic of women. Unfortunately due to ignorance and lack of knowledge of some people and the ever growing propaganda and Islamaphobia that exist today, including the ever growing media agenda’s that govern the way people think and act, women are deemed as being unequal to men in Islam.

We are all aware that women and men are not alike so I don’t understand when someone makes the statement that Islam should practice equality, what do you mean by equality??? This word – equality – which many thinkers in both the east and the west advocate in various fields of life is a word which is based on deviation and a lack of understanding, especially when it is attributed to the religion to Islam. One of the things that people misunderstand is when they say that “Islam is the religion of equality�. What they should say is that Islam is the religion of justice.

Here we should note that there are some people who speak of equality instead of justice, and this is a mistake. We should not say equality, because equality implies no differentiation between the two. Because of this unjust call for equality, people start to ask, what is the difference between male and female?’ So they made males and females the same. We are all aware that the Male is not like the female.

God says in the Quran:

“And the male is not like the female�[Quran Aal ‘Imraan 3:36] The male is different from the female in many ways, in his strength, in his body, in his toughness and roughness, whereas women are soft and gentle. Women are like men in some aspects and they differ from them in others. Most of the rulings of Islam apply to men and women equally.

In cases where a distinction is made between the sexes, the Muslim regards that as a mercy from God and a sign of His knowledge of His creation, but the arrogant people see it as oppression and injustice, so he stubbornly insists on claiming that men and women are the same. So let him tell us how a man can carry a foetus and breastfeed it? He stubbornly ignores the weakness of women and how they bleed during their monthly period, and he stubbornly refuses to accept reality.

But the Muslim is still at peace with his faith, surrendering to the command of God. “Should not He who has created know? And He is the Most Kind and Courteous (to His slaves), All Aware (of everything)� [Quran al-Mulk 67:14 ]

[HaLi8993]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "HaLi, words mean what they mean. To beat (a person) means "to strike violently or forcefully and repeatedly." That is simply what the word means. If you "reject the intended meaning" then you are saying that the qu'ran does not mean what it says, which, if you think about it, causes you worse problems. 

I really cannot have a coherent conversation with someone who says, "The word "beat" does not mean "beat," and the word "slave" does not mean "slave." If words don't mean themselves, coherent discussion becomes impossible"

ANSWER: It doesn't cause any problems what so ever, when a word is translated into English from Arabic it is not the same, it's actually very simple.

Well if you refuse to avoid all the evidence provided and choose to understand that these words are not a Western understanding and intended meaning, then there is nothing I can do for you.

QUOTE: " So just to follow your argument, it is that when the qu'ran says "beat your wife," it doesn't mean "beat your wife?" Really?"

ANSWER: Well your interpretation of beat is violently so No.

QUOTE: "Well which is it? Are they bad translators, or is the qu'ran impossible to translate?"

ANSWER: Yes there are wrong translations, impossible in the sense that you will never get the eloquence, richness and meaningful meaning of the words in English.

QUOTE: " Well, if you say that words mean the opposite of themselves then no, it's not"

ANSWER: They don't mean the opposite you just think they do.

QUOTE: "Call me crazy, I think that "beat" means "beat," and "slave" means "slave." 

ANSWER: Well I guess you don't know the Arabic language nor the teachings of Islam lol

QUOTE: "Ah, the context. O.K., what is your point about context? Does the context magically make the word mean its opposite? Please provide as much context as you need and show exactly how the context causes the word to mean the opposite of itself, so that "beat" means "don't beat," and "own slaves" means "don't own slaves."

ANSWER: The Quran clearly encourages the kindness and good treatment of ones wife, it doesn't mean the opposite it doesn't mean a violent beating to begin with so how can it mean the opposite?? 

[hERICtic]

@ Herictic

QUOTE: "So even thought it states the earth is like a bed (which is flat) and thats its spread out like a carpet (which is flat) is not talking about a flat earth? Seriously?

ANSWER: Isn't the earth like a bed which is flat spread out on our level?

No, its like a ball. A bed, with a canopy over it, describes a flat surface. As any person to descirbe a carpet or bed and they'll say a flat surface. Which makes more sense that the earth is flat bc the Quran also mentions ladders, stairs, towers reaching up to the heavens, which obviously they believed to go up.

QUOTE: "The Quran says no such thing. Dahaha means spread out, level out. It does not mean egg shaped. Nor is the earth shaped like an osterich egg.

From a Muslim website: http://en.islamtoday.net/node/667

Heck, use an Arabic dictionary.

And again, a few had already measured out the entire earth a 1000 years before.

Why do you not give any credit to the "miracles" of other cultures and their amazing finds? Instead you take a few verses which barely state anything out of context and claim a miracle"

ANSWER: Yes it does mean spread out, leveled out etc, however according to some knowledgable people it means egg shaped, so as Muslims we respect there views. And do not make a huge issue out of this.

Measuring out the earth does not mean they believed it was round.

It does not mean round like an osterich egg. I have already give you the word from an Arabic dictionary. Some apologists will claim it means that, but this is due to the fact its needed to give the Quran validity. Just because someone claims it means "X" doesnt make it so. The word, as given by the webistes I provided means flat, spread out.

As for the Greeks, its already been stated to you numerous times, they knew it was round AND measured it.

The earth is more of a sphere than an osterich egg anyway. Fact. So the Quran even if it did say was shaped like an osterich egg, would be incorrect.

ANSWER: How is it visible to the naked eye?? They meet but do not intermix this is due to the physical force called "surface tension," the waters of neighbouring seas do not mix. More importantly how would a Prophet (peace be upon him) know about surface tension 1400 years ago.

Can you point out to me where the Greeks are talking about a barrier.

How do they mix??, this barrier prevents the mixing of the fresh water with the salty water even though the two waters meet at the mouths of rivers.

Yes it may be land, this would be clear however there was another interpretation that cannot be ignored.

WRONG! They do mix. How many times must I repeat this? Obviously, you are just repeating from your apologist websites bc its not surface tension. Quran mention nothing regarding surface tension. From Wiki:

Water

Several effects of surface tension can be seen with ordinary water:

A. Beading of rain water on the surface of a waxy surface, such as a leaf. Water adheres weakly to wax and strongly to itself, so water clusters into drops. Surface tension gives them their near-spherical shape, because a sphere has the smallest possible surface area to volume ratio.

B. Formation of drops occurs when a mass of liquid is stretched. The animation shows water adhering to the faucet gaining mass until it is stretched to a point where the surface tension can no longer bind it to the faucet. It then separates and surface tension forms the drop into a sphere. If a stream of water were running from the faucet, the stream would break up into drops during its fall. Gravity stretches the stream, then surface tension pinches it into spheres.[2]

C. Flotation of objects denser than water occurs when the object is nonwettable and its weight is small enough to be borne by the forces arising from surface tension.[1] For example, water striders use surface tension to walk on the surface of a pond. The surface of the water behaves like an elastic film: the insect's feet cause indentations in the water's surface, increasing its surface area.[3]


D. Separation of oil and water (in this case, water and liquid wax) is caused by a tension in the surface between dissimilar liquids. This type of surface tension is called "interface tension", but its physics are the same.

E. Tears of wine is the formation of drops and rivulets on the side of a glass containing an alcoholic beverage. Its cause is a complex interaction between the differing surface tensions of water and ethanol; it is induced by a combination of surface tension modification of water by ethanol together with ethanol evaporating faster than water

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_tension
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The Quran states that it is refering to salt water and fresh water. There isnt any barrier. They do mix.

It is a virtual barrier resulting from each type of water pushing against the other so that they do not get mixed, because of the relative difference in density due to the different components of salt water and fresh water. So I don't understand why the Quran would need to mention it touches?

You want to believe it was land, to justify your claim lol.

Again I haven't seen any evidence so far talking about the barrier under the sea.

But they do mix!!!! Sheesh....please, will you actually do some homework before you debate. You're only running to your propaganda sites and repeating what they say without doing any research. There isnt any barrier. It APPEARS there is, but the salt water passes into the fresh eventually. I am not "believing" its land to justify my claim, you are adding to what the Quran states. All the Quran states is there is a barrier between fresh and salt water. You cant say both interpretations work, bc both are stating something different. If you want a miracle, it must be precise. The land interpretation works perfectly. If there is land between the two bodies of water, then no, they wont mix. But this isnt a miracle.

If you want to believe that it refers to the seperation of the waters from a "barrier", than its wrong. The waters, as stated numerous times, do mix.

ANSWER: Cant see any mention of a barrier under the sea, as mentioned previously the Quran is not a book of science.

LOL! First, the Quran doesnt even mention under the sea! You just proved my point. You, your apologists add to what the Quran states to make it appear miraclous. Second, there isnt any barrier! It appears there is, but in reality, there isnt any. And you are correct, the Quran is not a book of science, so stop pretending there are scientific miracles contained in in.

QUOTE: "Are you serious? The Quran mentions a barrier (thats it, nothing more, very simple) and you choose to believe it refers to pycnocline, or as you said how the seas meet and stay seperate. Aristotle and Pliny both state, quite indepth how the fresh water stays seperate from the salt water. Neither mentions barrier, but its not needed. In fact, its more precise bc technically there really isnt any barrier at all"

ANSWER: Can you show me any of these things, why wouldn't it be needed to mention the word barrier when this is what we are talking about (the barrier and surface tension) It is interesting that, during a period when there was little knowledge of physics, and of surface tension, or oceanography this could have been known, I could easily say that Aristotle and Pliny is talking about another concept relating to water staying seperate from the salt water. Unless you give me some evidence that is dealing with these issues then you do not have anything to stand on.

Neither has to mention a barrier, bc they were smart enough to know there isnt any. Surface tension does not seperate salt water from fresh. The term is pycnocline. You mention that there was very little knowledge of oceanography yet the Greeks IN DETAIL describe how and why the waters seperate. Again, more indepth and precise than the Quran which ONLY states salt water and fresh stay seperate. Thats all it states. I could just as easily state the Greeks were refering to surface tension.

If you want to claim a miracle, you need indepth, precise, unambigous verses which states as such. All the Quran says, salt water and fresh water have a barrier between them. Thats it.

Land works perfectly.

Lets do it this way. Show me why it cannot refer to the land.

I asked a few times, please give me an quote before 1971 that means cling. You cant. Up until science jumped it with absolute evidence, the the translations never used the word cling. Simply because the Quran never states this"

ANSWER: The word itself means cling. Lol. The tafsir (meaning of the verse) of al-Jalalayn translates this verse as:

"Created man from a clinging substance"

This was clearly written before 1971

I have done a little research into this and have yet to find a translation that states cling. I see translations that are after 1971, that use older translations and state "cling", but not the original translations. But...let's assume it does say cling.

Here is a fantastic site that breaks down the verse and how loosely based the translations are:

http://www.reocities.com/freethoughtmecca/embryo.html

Please, note how the translations keep changing, how words are added to what is actually stated in the verses themselves.

1) He the Almighty also said: "And He has set firm mountains in the earth so it would not shake with you....(The Noble Quran, 16:15)"

Mountains act like nails, and to a large extent, prevent movement in the Earth's surface.

Im at a loss here. The reason we have mountains is due to the violent upheavel of the earth moving. Lands with mountains still have earthquakes, still move.

2) No indeed! If he does not stop, We will grab him by the forelock, a lying, sinful forelock. (Qur'an, 96:15-16)

According to research the prefrontal area, which is responsible for the management of particular functions of the brain, lies in the frontal part of the skull, which is responsible for telling lies and the truth.

Can you give evidence from a scientific site that actually claims the frontal part of the brain is responsible for lying? Not a muslim website, a science one?

You wont find one. Its the sub-cortical part of the brains which allows for these type of decisions.

3) We made the sky a preserved and protected roof yet still they turn away from Our Signs. (Qur'an, 21:32)

The atmosphere protects the earth.

This states nothing about the atmosphere. It was common belief that a protective "roof" seperated the rains, planets, stars from the earth. The Greeks believed it was a solid dome. Bible also says there is a roof that seperates the earth from the stars.

[Autodidact]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "HaLi, words mean what they mean. To beat (a person) means "to strike violently or forcefully and repeatedly." That is simply what the word means. If you "reject the intended meaning" then you are saying that the qu'ran does not mean what it says, which, if you think about it, causes you worse problems. 

I really cannot have a coherent conversation with someone who says, "The word "beat" does not mean "beat," and the word "slave" does not mean "slave." If words don't mean themselves, coherent discussion becomes impossible"

ANSWER: It doesn't cause any problems what so ever, when a word is translated into English from Arabic it is not the same, it's actually very simple.

So what you're saying is that all of the devout and learned translators are simply wrong? Well, in that case, it is the English translations of the qu'ran which are useless.

Well if you refuse to avoid all the evidence provided and choose to understand that these words are not a Western understanding and intended meaning, then there is nothing I can do for you.

You haven't presented any evidence, merely your own absurd and bald statement that the qu'ran does not mean what it says, in which case you have succeeded in destroying the entire basis for your religion. Good job.

QUOTE: " So just to follow your argument, it is that when the qu'ran says "beat your wife," it doesn't mean "beat your wife?" Really?"

ANSWER: Well your interpretation of beat is violently so No.

It's not my interpretation, HaLi, that's what you don't grasp. It's the dictionary and commonly understood meaning of the word. That is what the word means. So, again, your position, just to be clear, is that the word "beat" does not mean "beat?" Really? That's what you expect us to accept?

QUOTE: "Well which is it? Are they bad translators, or is the qu'ran impossible to translate?"

ANSWER: Yes there are wrong translations, impossible in the sense that you will never get the eloquence, richness and meaningful meaning of the words in English.

I know. That's why only an idiot or impotent God would use this method of communicating His message, and one of the many reason we know that the qu'ran was not it.

QUOTE: " Well, if you say that words mean the opposite of themselves then no, it's not"

ANSWER: They don't mean the opposite you just think they do.

No, you do. I say that "beat" means "beat." You say that "beat" means "don't beat."

QUOTE: "Call me crazy, I think that "beat" means "beat," and "slave" means "slave." 

ANSWER: Well I guess you don't know the Arabic language nor the teachings of Islam lol

I don't know Arabic, but apparently I know the teachings of Islam better than you.

QUOTE: "Ah, the context. O.K., what is your point about context? Does the context magically make the word mean its opposite? Please provide as much context as you need and show exactly how the context causes the word to mean the opposite of itself, so that "beat" means "don't beat," and "own slaves" means "don't own slaves."

ANSWER: The Quran clearly encourages the kindness and good treatment of ones wife, it doesn't mean the opposite it doesn't mean a violent beating to begin with so how can it mean the opposite?? 

[font=Impact][/font]THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A NON-VIOLENT BEATING. BEATING IS VIOLENT. TO BEAT SOMEONE MEANS TO STRIKE THEM REPEATEDLY AND VIOLENTLY. THAT IS WHAT THE WORD "BEAT" MEANS. Apparently the qu'ran asserts that beating your wife is kind and good treatment. Your only other option is to say that it contradicts yourself. Or, of course, you could argue that the qu'ran means the opposite of what it says, but then you have bigger problems. In that case Allah is NOT God and Muhammad is NOT His prophet.[/b]

[A Troubled Man]

ANSWER: Yes, the mind of an Evolutionist cannot comprehend such things. Because he does not believe in a Creator

LOL! Appeal to belief fallacy. You have no answer so you resort to fallacies.

ANSWER: You are saying God is wrong, this is surprising because you don't believe in a God. So of course according to your logic it wasn't.  

Dishonestly putting words in my mouth to support your argument. I never said your God was wrong, I said the Quran/Muhammad was wrong.

ANSWER: This verse is not referring to the earth being flat.

It uses the term "flattened out" so it's saying the earth is flat.

ANSWER: Plate tectonics has got nothing to do with mountains not being firm, the Mountains are moving along with the plate.

And, that would show they are not firm, hence the Quran is wrong.

ANSWER: Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

Those are facts about our earth.

ANSWER: Who said anything about earthquakes??

The ground shaking is an earthquake.

ANSWER: Who did??

No one did.

ANSWER: Thanks for pointing that out.

It shows the Quran to be wrong once again.

ANSWER: They migrate up the river lol

Yes, because there are NO barriers, the Quran is wrong.

ANSWER: According to this link it does

http://www.calmreflection.blogspot.com.au/

That is just another Islamic propaganda blog spreading disinformation. A barrier is something that bars passage, restrains or obstructs passage, however water flows easily from one sea to another with no barriers. The Quran is wrong.

ANSWER: Thats nice, there is only one problem with this we are talking about the Quran.

Yes, we are showing the Quran is wrong.

[HaLi8993]

@ Herictic

QUOTE: "No, its like a ball. A bed, with a canopy over it, describes a flat surface. As any person to descirbe a carpet or bed and they'll say a flat surface. Which makes more sense that the earth is flat bc the Quran also mentions ladders, stairs, towers reaching up to the heavens, which obviously they believed to go up"

ANSWER: A ball is circular and round, on our level we cannot visually see the earth as round, this is impossible, yes a flat surface, the verse is not dealing with the earth being flat or round so how can you assume that this is what it is implying?? Can you give me references so I know what your talking about.

QUOTE: "It does not mean round like an osterich egg. I have already give you the word from an Arabic dictionary. Some apologists will claim it means that, but this is due to the fact its needed to give the Quran validity. Just because someone claims it means "X" doesnt make it so. The word, as given by the webistes I provided means flat, spread out. 

As for the Greeks, its already been stated to you numerous times, they knew it was round AND measured it. 

The earth is more of a sphere than an osterich egg anyway. Fact. So the Quran even if it did say was shaped like an osterich egg, would be incorrect"

ANSWER: Yes this is the meaning of the verse, We are looking at the Linguistic meaning. That verse is not arguing wether the earth is round or flat, we have other evidence for this, there are Hadith that use this word and make it evident that the context it is being used in is referring to a round object, according to Lisan Al-Arab (The Arabs' (of old) Tongue) Dictionary that the word daha implies being round.

Ibn Taymiyah (d. 728 H / 1328 CE), may Allah be merciful with him, proves the earth is round, In the course of his response, Ibn Taymiyah discusses the question of the earth is it round or flat? He writes:

Ibn Taymiyah continues: The [word] falak [in the Arabic language] means that which is round. 

There are plenty of words that are short in quantity and rich in meaning. This is an example of how God Almighty uses scientific notions in the Quran when He talked about how He created certain things.  He gave words that had multiple meanings to make it for all times and all places, and to enable it to truly be the everlasting and never ending divine Miracle that will always prove the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him).

As for the Greeks they once believed the earth was flat also, they started with a theory. And they were not correct in there estimation completely, nor is the earth a sphere. Muhammad (peace be upon him) was not a scientist to write right and wrong, he was illiterate.

QUOTE: "WRONG! They do mix. How many times must I repeat this? Obviously, you are just repeating from your apologist websites bc its not surface tension. Quran mention nothing regarding surface tension. From Wiki: 

Water 

Several effects of surface tension can be seen with ordinary water: 

A. Beading of rain water on the surface of a waxy surface, such as a leaf. Water adheres weakly to wax and strongly to itself, so water clusters into drops. Surface tension gives them their near-spherical shape, because a sphere has the smallest possible surface area to volume ratio. 

B. Formation of drops occurs when a mass of liquid is stretched. The animation shows water adhering to the faucet gaining mass until it is stretched to a point where the surface tension can no longer bind it to the faucet. It then separates and surface tension forms the drop into a sphere. If a stream of water were running from the faucet, the stream would break up into drops during its fall. Gravity stretches the stream, then surface tension pinches it into spheres.[2] 

C. Flotation of objects denser than water occurs when the object is nonwettable and its weight is small enough to be borne by the forces arising from surface tension.[1] For example, water striders use surface tension to walk on the surface of a pond. The surface of the water behaves like an elastic film: the insect's feet cause indentations in the water's surface, increasing its surface area.[3] 


D. Separation of oil and water (in this case, water and liquid wax) is caused by a tension in the surface between dissimilar liquids. This type of surface tension is called "interface tension", but its physics are the same. 

E. Tears of wine is the formation of drops and rivulets on the side of a glass containing an alcoholic beverage. Its cause is a complex interaction between the differing surface tensions of water and ethanol; it is induced by a combination of surface tension modification of water by ethanol together with ethanol evaporating faster than water"

ANSWER: Can you prove to me they indeed mix, you keep saying this without any evidence, they meet but do not mix or transgress this barrier. It doesn't need to mention it is surface tension because it is science that has discovered that it's surface tension, we are concentrating on the barrier, which couldn't have been known. These effects of surface tension have got nothing to do with the barrier that exists.

French oceanographer, J Cousteau, gives the following account as a result of his studies in water barriers: “We studied the assertions by certain researchers about barriers separating seas, and noticed that the Mediterranean Sea had its own salinity and density and housed autochthonous fauna and flora. Then we examined the water of the Atlantic Ocean and discovered features entirely different from those of the Mediterranean Sea. According to our expectations, these two seas that merged in the strait of Gibraltar should present similar characteristics in terms of salinity, density and other properties. The two seas presented different features even though they were adjacent. This greatly puzzled us. An incredible barrier prevented the two seas from coming together. The same sort of a barrier had also been observed in Bab Al Mandab in the Gulf of Aden connecting with the Red Sea.

Subsequent to our observations, further researchers made it clear that the seas which had different characteristics had some barriers.� This fact that astounded oceanographers was revealed 14 centuries ago in the Quran. This aspect, not visible to the naked eye and appearing to be in conflict with the properties of water known to man, was first revealed to men in the Arabian peninsula, men who were not at all experienced in any sense with oceanography.

The barriers between adjacent seas demonstrate a rich diversity, a result of the perfect planning of God. Wherever we turn our gaze, the complexion of human beings, the infinite diversity of flowers, etc., demonstrate the marvelous diversity of God’s creation. The Quran refers to the waters that do not coalesce. This is because of a physical characteristic called “surface tension.� Thus, neighbouring seas present different densities, salinity rates and compositions. These differences enable media that permit different species to coexist. Thus, fish, plants and microorganisms living under water present untold varieties. Water, that usually mixes easily, can turn into a wall thanks to God’s imposition and operation of physical laws, contributing to this variety. This fact is not affected by strong waves and currents. This property to which the Quran refers is a miraculous statement unknown at the time of the Prophet and presents clear evidence for the man of understanding.

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/islam/ ... seas-.html

QUOTE: "But they do mix!!!! Sheesh....please, will you actually do some homework before you debate. You're only running to your propaganda sites and repeating what they say without doing any research. There isnt any barrier. It APPEARS there is, but the salt water passes into the fresh eventually. I am not "believing" its land to justify my claim, you are adding to what the Quran states. All the Quran states is there is a barrier between fresh and salt water. You cant say both interpretations work, bc both are stating something different. If you want a miracle, it must be precise. The land interpretation works perfectly. If there is land between the two bodies of water, then no, they wont mix. But this isnt a miracle. 

If you want to believe that it refers to the seperation of the waters from a "barrier", than its wrong. The waters, as stated numerous times, do mix"

ANSWER: I have done my homework, you need to find out if there is barrier or not, oceanography will explain this to you it is a known fact so why are you denying this??? why don't both interpretations work? They both compliment each other its called contradistinction that is the beauty of the eloquence found in the Quran. It works perfectly because if you were to take the other interpretation your debate would be nullified.

QUOTE: "LOL! First, the Quran doesnt even mention under the sea! You just proved my point. You, your apologists add to what the Quran states to make it appear miraclous. Second, there isnt any barrier! It appears there is, but in reality, there isnt any. And you are correct, the Quran is not a book of science, so stop pretending there are scientific miracles contained in in"

ANSWER: Why would it need too? What makes you think there is no barrier, have you any evidence for this? You are entitled to believe in what you wish and we are entitled to believe  in what we wish according to the evidence and proof provided by scientific facts, many things have been proven from the Quran and Sunnah to be true. However you want to focus on a few verses of the Quran that you can use to suggest that they are not clear. 

QUOTE: "Neither has to mention a barrier, bc they were smart enough to know there isnt any. Surface tension does not seperate salt water from fresh. The term is pycnocline. You mention that there was very little knowledge of oceanography yet the Greeks IN DETAIL describe how and why the waters seperate. Again, more indepth and precise than the Quran which ONLY states salt water and fresh stay seperate. Thats all it states. I could just as easily state the Greeks were refering to surface tension. 

If you want to claim a miracle, you need indepth, precise, unambigous verses which states as such. All the Quran says, salt water and fresh water have a barrier between them. Thats it. 

Land works perfectly. 

Lets do it this way. Show me why it cannot refer to the land. 

ANSWER: The physical force called “surface tension�, prevents the waters of neighboring seas from mixing, surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them. Let me ask you this then, how does the pycnocline zone create each water with a different salinity from both the fresh and salt water??

That's what I am waiting to see, can you please post for us what the Greeks have said in detail about a barrier that prevent the two seas from transgressing that is identical to that of the Quran.

The entire Quran is a miracle, we believe in everything the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) made evident to us, God supported him with miracles and evidence for people of reason and understanding, the greatest of which was the Quran. This was the greatest sign, which contains in its pages miracles of both style and content, which all of mankind cannot match or imitate, even if they gather together for that purpose. This is clear from the statements of the most eloquent of the Arabs, who were completely unable to match it. The Quran was and centuries later still is, an eternal miracle as is evident in its brilliant style, its information about the Unseen, its fulfilment of the promises of God the superiority of its laws, and the fact that its rulings are appropriate for every time and place in addition to the fact that it has such a moving impact on people’s hearts.

Who said anything about it not being able to be referred to as land, it can, but science has proven a more detailed explanation which is more in favor of the other interpretation.

QUOTE: "I have done a little research into this and have yet to find a translation that states cling. I see translations that are after 1971, that use older translations and state "cling", but not the original translations. But...let's assume it does say cling. 

Here is a fantastic site that breaks down the verse and how loosely based the translations are: 

http://www.reocities.com/freethoughtmecca/embryo.html 

Please, note how the translations keep changing, how words are added to what is actually stated in the verses themselves"

ANSWER: Type in Tafsir al-Jalalayn Al-Alaq into Google and see what comes up. This was clearly before 1971. 

So you want to use an Anti-Islamic website to justify your answer, can you point out to me exactly What word your referring too?

QUOTE: "Im at a loss here. The reason we have mountains is due to the violent upheavel of the earth moving. Lands with mountains still have earthquakes, still move"

ANSWER: We are talking about the role of the Mountain not earthquakes. Parts of Mountains known as the mountain root extends down as far as 10-15 times their own height. Die to this, mountains play a similar role to a nail or peg firmly holding down a tent. The Quran says:

"Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs?  (The Noble Quran, 78:6-7)"

Could anyone during the time of the Prophet Muhammad  have known of the true shape of mountains?  Could anyone imagine from what he sees before him actually extends deep into the earth and has a root, as scientists assert?? Certainly Not!

God  created the mountains to stand firmly on earth, and to stabilize the earth and not let it shake or get out of balance.They act as stabilizers for the earth.

QUOTE: "Can you give evidence from a scientific site that actually claims the frontal part of the brain is responsible for lying? Not a muslim website, a science one? 

You wont find one. Its the sub-cortical part of the brains which allows for these type of decisions"

ANSWER: Isn't the sub-cortical part of the frontal lobe??

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/200509 ... _sys.shtml

Frontal Lobe- associated with reasoning, planning, parts of speech, movement, emotions, and problem solving

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/kinser/Structure1.html

QUOTE: "This states nothing about the atmosphere. It was common belief that a protective "roof" seperated the rains, planets, stars from the earth. The Greeks believed it was a solid dome. Bible also says there is a roof that seperates the earth from the stars."

ANSWER: Can you give me an example of the Greeks or the bible talking about a protective roof and how it acts as a protective shield or what exactly it protects us from???

[HaLi8993]

@ Autodidact

QUOTE: "So what you're saying is that all of the devout and learned translators are simply wrong? Well, in that case, it is the English translations of the qu'ran which are useless"

ANSWER: Thats not what I am saying at all, What we have is a translation of the Quran in English, it is the best effort an individual can make in explaining it as close as possible to the meaning of the Arabic language. It is however not the Quran as the Quran will forever be in Arabic only, the power and impact the verses in the Quran carry can not be duplicates in any other language. It is an attempt to bring the message to those who only speak and know the English language. The Quran has been preserved word for word in the Arabic language from day one without the slightest change.

QUOTE: "You haven't presented any evidence, merely your own absurd and bald statement that the qu'ran does not mean what it says, in which case you have succeeded in destroying the entire basis for your religion. Good job"

ANSWER: If that's what you think lol, you need to actually provide evidence that it allows such violent beatings. I haven't seen anything yet apart from your claim that this word is referring to violence against women.

QUOTE: "It's not my interpretation, HaLi, that's what you don't grasp. It's the dictionary and commonly understood meaning of the word. That is what the word means. So, again, your position, just to be clear, is that the word "beat" does not mean "beat?" Really? That's what you expect us to accept?"

ANSWER: Is it a Arabic Dictionary?? Lol. You can accept what you like, I'm not here to convince you rather I'm  here to just give you supporting evidence to my arguments, which I have done extensively.

QUOTE: "No, you do. I say that "beat" means "beat." You say that "beat" means "don't beat." 

ANSWER: I don't understand how it could be the opposite when I don't even accept the fact that the word used means a violent beating.

QUOTE: "I don't know Arabic, but apparently I know the teachings of Islam better than you"

ANSWER: If you don't know Arabic, you wouldn't know much at all.

QUOTE: "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A NON-VIOLENT BEATING. BEATING IS VIOLENT. TO BEAT SOMEONE MEANS TO STRIKE THEM REPEATEDLY AND VIOLENTLY. THAT IS WHAT THE WORD "BEAT" MEANS. Apparently the qu'ran asserts that beating your wife is kind and good treatment. Your only other option is to say that it contradicts yourself. Or, of course, you could argue that the qu'ran means the opposite of what it says, but then you have bigger problems. In that case Allah is NOT God and Muhammad is NOT His prophet.

ANSWER: That is according to your interpretation, to impose your ideology onto Islam isn't going to work, Sorry lol. The only thing that is going to work is showing me from my sources that Islam allows a violent beating against women.

[HaLi8993]

@ A Troubled Man

QUOTE: "LOL! Appeal to belief fallacy. You have no answer so you resort to fallacies"

ANSWER: Is that your favorite line.....

QURAN: "Dishonestly putting words in my mouth to support your argument. I never said your God was wrong, I said the Quran/Muhammad was wrong"

ANSWER: Well that's what it means if your saying the Quran is wrong because it is a revelation from God, lol

QUOTE: "It uses the term "flattened out" so it's saying the earth is flat"

ANSWER: On our level, yes

QUOTE: "And, that would show they are not firm, hence the Quran is wrong"

ANSWER: Can you explain this to me?? Cause this soooo doesn't make any sense

QUOTE: "Those are facts about our earth"

ANSWER: If thats what you think lol

QUOTE: "The ground shaking is an earthquake"

ANSWER: And.....

QUOTE: "No one did"

ANSWER: ok......

QUOTE: "It shows the Quran to be wrong once again"

ANSWER: Yes according to Evolutionists it is.

QUOTE: "Yes, because there are NO barriers, the Quran is wrong."

ANSWER: Nope wrong again.

QUOTE: "That is just another Islamic propaganda blog spreading disinformation. A barrier is something that bars passage, restrains or obstructs passage, however water flows easily from one sea to another with no barriers. The Quran is wrong"

ANSWER: It prevents it from transgressing. Can you prove this please, thanks.

[hERICtic]

@ Herictic

QUOTE: "No, its like a ball. A bed, with a canopy over it, describes a flat surface. As any person to descirbe a carpet or bed and they'll say a flat surface. Which makes more sense that the earth is flat bc the Quran also mentions ladders, stairs, towers reaching up to the heavens, which obviously they believed to go up"

ANSWER: A ball is circular and round, on our level we cannot visually see the earth as round, this is impossible, yes a flat surface, the verse is not dealing with the earth being flat or round so how can you assume that this is what it is implying?? Can you give me references so I know what your talking about.

The Quran never states the earth is a sphere. But it states numerous times its like a carpet. Ask anyone to describe a carpet and they'll give you a flat defintion.

QUOTE: "It does not mean round like an osterich egg. I have already give you the word from an Arabic dictionary. Some apologists will claim it means that, but this is due to the fact its needed to give the Quran validity. Just because someone claims it means "X" doesnt make it so. The word, as given by the webistes I provided means flat, spread out. 

As for the Greeks, its already been stated to you numerous times, they knew it was round AND measured it. 

The earth is more of a sphere than an osterich egg anyway. Fact. So the Quran even if it did say was shaped like an osterich egg, would be incorrect"

ANSWER: Yes this is the meaning of the verse, We are looking at the Linguistic meaning. That verse is not arguing wether the earth is round or flat, we have other evidence for this, there are Hadith that use this word and make it evident that the context it is being used in is referring to a round object, according to Lisan Al-Arab (The Arabs' (of old) Tongue) Dictionary that the word daha implies being round.

Im sorry. But from the various readings I have read, the word means to spread out/flatten. I already have given you the Arabic dictionary definition.

Translation after translation I have read by Muslim scholars state it means to spread out/flat.

Here are two:

[edit]Lisan Al Arab
الأ�دْح�ي�ّ و الإدْح�ي�ّ و الأ�دْح�يَّة و الإدْح�يَّة و الأ�دْح�وّة مَب�يض النعام �ي الرمل , وزنه أ��ْع�ول من ذلك , لأَن النعامة تَدْح�وه بر�جْلها ثم تَب�يض �يه وليس للنعام ع�شٌّ . و مَدْحَى النعام : موضع بيضها , و أ�دْح�ي�ّها موضعها الذي ت��َر�ّخ �يه .�
Translation: Al-udhy, Al-idhy, Al-udhiyya, Al-idhiyya, Al-udhuwwa:The place in sand where an ostrich lays its egg. That's because the ostrich spreads out the earth with its feet then lays its eggs there, an ostrich doesn't have a nest.


Lis�n al-ʿArab
The Lis�n al-ʿArab (لسان العرب, "The Arab Tongue") was completed by Ibn Manzur in 1290. Occupying 20 printed book volumes (in the most frequently cited edition) it is among the best-known and most comprehensive dictionaries of the Arabic language

Lane's Lexicon
also, said of an ostrich, (S, TA,) he expanded, and made wide, (TA,) with his foot, or leg, the place where he was about to deposit his eggs
The place of the laying of eggs, (S, K,) and of the hatching thereof, (S,) , of the ostrich, (S. K. ) in the sand; (K; ) because that bird expands it, and makes it wide, with its foot, or leg; for the ostrich has no (nest such as is termed) Ush (S: ) pl. Adahin (TA in the present art.) and Adahee (i. e., if not a mistranscription, Adahiyyu agreeably with the sing.): (TA in art. dhaha and mudhhiyya (likewise) signifies the place of the eggs of the ostrich.
Note above that Lane also translates dahaha to mean the place in the sand where the ostrich lays its eggs, and not the eggs themselves.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Qur'an

Ibn Taymiyah (d. 728 H / 1328 CE), may Allah be merciful with him, proves the earth is round, In the course of his response, Ibn Taymiyah discusses the question of the earth is it round or flat? He writes:

Ibn Taymiyah continues: The [word] falak [in the Arabic language] means that which is round. 

We are not discussing what Ibn states, but what the Quran states. The Quran does not mention the earth is egg shaped. The Quran never mentions the earth is a sphere. Ibn very well may have believed the earth was a sphere, but thats not what Mohammed wrote. Thats what we are discussing.

I could also give you various viewpoints from Muslims were claimed the earth was flat. But again, thats not what we are debating.

Now, even if it does refer to a spherical earth, it was already known by the Greeks.

So the point being, its not a miracle.

Fact: The Quran does not say the earth is egg shaped.
Fact: The Greeks already knew it was spherical and measured it.

ANSWER: Can you prove to me they indeed mix, you keep saying this without any evidence, they meet but do not mix or transgress this barrier. It doesn't need to mention it is surface tension because it is science that has discovered that it's surface tension, we are concentrating on the barrier, which couldn't have been known. These effects of surface tension have got nothing to do with the barrier that exists.

I notice you refuse to do any research unless it comes from a Muslim site. I have given the word pycnocline at least 5 times. Please look it up. You keep stating that a barrier seperating salt water and fresh water could not have been known.

I have already given you the quotes from Greek scholars who did know of a "barrier". I have also showed you the Quran ONLY gives the information that there is a barrier seperating the two waters. Thats it. Nothing more. Land fits this defintion perfectly. I have asked you to show me how it could not be land, which you have not answered. If you cannot, then the interpretation is valid that it could be land.

In order to prove its a miracle, you would have to show exactly what is being refered to. You cannot just take a few words and create any interpretation, ignoring all other valid ones just to appease your beliefs.

French oceanographer, J Cousteau, gives the following account as a result of his studies in water barriers: “We studied the assertions by certain researchers about barriers separating seas, and noticed that the Mediterranean Sea had its own salinity and density and housed autochthonous fauna and flora. Then we examined the water of the Atlantic Ocean and discovered features entirely different from those of the Mediterranean Sea. According to our expectations, these two seas that merged in the strait of Gibraltar should present similar characteristics in terms of salinity, density and other properties. The two seas presented different features even though they were adjacent. This greatly puzzled us. An incredible barrier prevented the two seas from coming together. The same sort of a barrier had also been observed in Bab Al Mandab in the Gulf of Aden connecting with the Red Sea.

Subsequent to our observations, further researchers made it clear that the seas which had different characteristics had some barriers.� This fact that astounded oceanographers was revealed 14 centuries ago in the Quran. This aspect, not visible to the naked eye and appearing to be in conflict with the properties of water known to man, was first revealed to men in the Arabian peninsula, men who were not at all experienced in any sense with oceanography.

The barriers between adjacent seas demonstrate a rich diversity, a result of the perfect planning of God. Wherever we turn our gaze, the complexion of human beings, the infinite diversity of flowers, etc., demonstrate the marvelous diversity of God’s creation. The Quran refers to the waters that do not coalesce. This is because of a physical characteristic called “surface tension.� Thus, neighbouring seas present different densities, salinity rates and compositions. These differences enable media that permit different species to coexist. Thus, fish, plants and microorganisms living under water present untold varieties. Water, that usually mixes easily, can turn into a wall thanks to God’s imposition and operation of physical laws, contributing to this variety. This fact is not affected by strong waves and currents. This property to which the Quran refers is a miraculous statement unknown at the time of the Prophet and presents clear evidence for the man of understanding.

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/islam/ ... seas-.html

Sigh.....the Quran makes no mention of anything you stated above. Nothing. All it states is that there is a barrier, which the definition of land fits perfectly.

This is exactly my point. You're adding to what the Quran states. Even more amazing, is that they do mix! I keep harping on this. There isnt any barrier. What Cousteau describes is called pycnocline.

Now I'll ask again. Show me using the Quran that the barrier is not land.

Thats all you have to do. If you cannot do that, this debate is over for this topic.

You claim its a miracle that the Quran mentions a "barrier". Unless you can show that he is not refering to land, you cannot state a miracle.

Its that simple.

ANSWER: I have done my homework, you need to find out if there is barrier or not, oceanography will explain this to you it is a known fact so why are you denying this??? why don't both interpretations work? They both compliment each other its called contradistinction that is the beauty of the eloquence found in the Quran. It works perfectly because if you were to take the other interpretation your debate would be nullified.

Wrong. I could do that with anything then! I could just use a vague verse, use my interpration and claim it means X. Then claim it works perfectly! Nothing in the Quran states anything about salinity, density or anything remotely connected to pycnocline or surface tension. Nothing.

All the Quran says is that there is barrier. Thats it. Nothing more. I can just as easily say there was a solid wall built by hand from stone seperating the fresh water from the salt water.

Again, show me how it could not refer to land. You cannot just bounce back and forth to whatever defintion works for you.

QUOTE: "Neither has to mention a barrier, bc they were smart enough to know there isnt any. Surface tension does not seperate salt water from fresh. The term is pycnocline. You mention that there was very little knowledge of oceanography yet the Greeks IN DETAIL describe how and why the waters seperate. Again, more indepth and precise than the Quran which ONLY states salt water and fresh stay seperate. Thats all it states. I could just as easily state the Greeks were refering to surface tension. 

If you want to claim a miracle, you need indepth, precise, unambigous verses which states as such. All the Quran says, salt water and fresh water have a barrier between them. Thats it. 

Land works perfectly. 

Lets do it this way. Show me why it cannot refer to the land. 

ANSWER: The physical force called “surface tension�, prevents the waters of neighboring seas from mixing, surface tension prevents them from mingling with one another, just as if a thin wall were between them. Let me ask you this then, how does the pycnocline zone create each water with a different salinity from both the fresh and salt water??

That's what I am waiting to see, can you please post for us what the Greeks have said in detail about a barrier that prevent the two seas from transgressing that is identical to that of the Quran.

Are you serious? The Greeks IN DETAIL describe the seperation of the waters. There isnt anything ambiguous about it. They go into detail as to why the waters are seperate. The Quran says...well, nothing. That there is a barrier. Thats it.

Please read this. http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina41003p4.htm

It shows you wrong on EVERY level.

QUOTE: "Im at a loss here. The reason we have mountains is due to the violent upheavel of the earth moving. Lands with mountains still have earthquakes, still move"

ANSWER: We are talking about the role of the Mountain not earthquakes. Parts of Mountains known as the mountain root extends down as far as 10-15 times their own height. Die to this, mountains play a similar role to a nail or peg firmly holding down a tent. The Quran says:

"Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs?  (The Noble Quran, 78:6-7)"

Could anyone during the time of the Prophet Muhammad  have known of the true shape of mountains?  Could anyone imagine from what he sees before him actually extends deep into the earth and has a root, as scientists assert?? Certainly Not!

Wow. I notice you left out the key part. It states the pegs are so the land does not move. Yes it does. So the Quran is wrong.

As for who can imagine that mountains have pegs......Job 28:9 : People assault the flinty rock with their hands and lay bare the roots of the mountains.

So you're wrong again.

So far you have not given a single verse that is a miracle. Either the verses are vague, wrong or already known.

Why is it you do not give cultures that predate the Quran acknowledgement of their scientific finds. Why do you not believe in the Greek gods. The Greeks were simply amazing. In depth, precise with their scientific finds. We have yet to find one in the Quran.

QUOTE: "Can you give evidence from a scientific site that actually claims the frontal part of the brain is responsible for lying? Not a muslim website, a science one? 

You wont find one. Its the sub-cortical part of the brains which allows for these type of decisions"

ANSWER: Isn't the sub-cortical part of the frontal lobe??

http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/200509 ... _sys.shtml

Frontal Lobe- associated with reasoning, planning, parts of speech, movement, emotions, and problem solving

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/kinser/Structure1.html

No its not. The frontal lobe, as I have shown you with the website is not involved in the lying process.

The Quran is wrong again on this issue.

QUOTE: "This states nothing about the atmosphere. It was common belief that a protective "roof" seperated the rains, planets, stars from the earth. The Greeks believed it was a solid dome. Bible also says there is a roof that seperates the earth from the stars."

ANSWER: Can you give me an example of the Greeks or the bible talking about a protective roof and how it acts as a protective shield or what exactly it protects us from???

What does the Quran say this protective roof keep us safe from? Its another example of a generic statement. It does not mention what it protects us from. You fail each time to comprehend that in order for a miracle to be declared, the verse must be PRECISE, UNAMBIGuOUS, UNKNOWABLE, INDEPTH.

Each verse you have given is so vague, its meaningless. You want it be say its protecting the earth from rays and whatnot...but it never claims this.

Bible claims the sky is a roof...and its solid. Can you show in the Quran anything that contradicts this? How do you know Mohammed wasnt refering to protection from "shooting stars"? You dont. Thats my point. Its so vague!

Ok, the earth has a protective roof? From what exactly? Its never stated? Yet when you run to your Islamic sites, it'll state it refers to the ozone layer. That its protection from high frequency ultraviolet light from the sun. But the Quran never states this!

Are you understanding this at all? The Quran gives one or two verses, very open to interpretation and your apologetic sites give hundreds of words to describe what supposedly Mohammed was trying to convey. Why, if its such a miracle, is this done? Why doesnt the Quran just come out and say it? Think about it.

Put yourself in the mindset of Mohammed. Think about what the current beliefs were back then.

Then compare the Quran to those beliefs. Its a perfect match.

The Bible writers believed a roof seperated the heavens and earth. Even the Quran states its a roof.

If you try to get into the mind of the author, what the beliefs were back then, the logical explaination appear more rationale and concrete. Not the convuluted ones you keep trying to push on.

The perfect example is the barrier part of our debate.

[hERICtic]

Hal,

Lets try this.

Give me one "miracle" in the Quran. But I want you to find me an Islamic interpretation that explains in detail what it refers to BEFORE science supposedly revealed it.

In other words, here is my claim.

The Quran does not contain one scientific miracle. It has vague verses with obvious meanings that easily refered to beliefs back then. Or were already known.

Islamic sites today, find the scientific claim, then run back to the Quran and compare it to those vague verses I am refering to for a hit.

If the Quran is so amazing, it should reveal itself before the science becomes involved.

Case in point.

“He has set free the two seas meeting together. There is a barrier between them. They do not transgress.� (Quran 55:19-20)

This is all it states.

An Islamic website then claims:

http://www.quran-m.com/firas/en1/index. ... &Itemid=91

Here lies the problem. Nothing in the Quran states this. No one interpretation BEFORE science explained it backs up what the Islamic site states.

Not one.

Its only AFTER science makes a claim does it suddenly mean what the Islamic sites say.

So give me one scientific miracle, the interpretation from a Muslim scholar predating modern science that back up modern science.

We can go from there.

[A Troubled Man]

Why is it you do not give cultures that predate the Quran acknowledgement of their scientific finds.

That would make the "Golden Age of Islam" a miniscule blip on the horizon of scientific advancement considering the vast majority of the advancements were credited to Muslims and not the cultures they stole it from.