Evidence, schmevidence and the extraordinary

[Awediot]

"I believe in God."


Is that a "claim"? ...Sort of. But a claim seems to imply I want you to believe too, and am ready, willing and able to try and convince you by providing reasons and evidence why you should believe too... Well, half right.

This infamous, under AND overestimated thing called "evidence" comes with some sometimes spoken, always implied qualifiers... It must be "sufficient" enough to "convince", and appropriately "extraordinary" while at the same time "rational" enough to essentially remove all doubt, or "prove" God on a case by case basis... If it's not, it doesn't qualify, is considered too 'personal' and isn't useful enough to be deemed real "evidence" at all...(except maybe to that particular theist, who we all know is just making it up anyway...seeing what they want to.)

So if asked what sort or amount of "evidence" the person wants, either it is spectacular and impossible for a mere human to produce (esp. over the internet), or they aren't sure...but if you don't produce it, you fail to meet your responsibility to back up your claim...even if all you did was say what you believe.

Then as the cherry on top, ANYTHING might actually be Aliens, or some terrorist secret weapon, or food poisoning or a brain tumor, or..or...amazing, but NOT GOD anyway...

It's a catch 22... I cannot produce the required miracle, or define what the person is demanding if they them self don't even know, or even if presented written in the clouds, then prove it really is GOD... It is impossible to present such "evidence" on demand with any realistic thought it will do any good. Ever... It never has been sufficient for the person asking for it, or they'd be a theist. That the latest request would be the one that turns them into a Believer, is a pretty silly expectation and both sides no it...yet, what else can we do?

Evidence for God, for a Spiritual Reality, is non-transferable, personal, empirical...and ultimately up to God, not us to give. Like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder... Knowing this as a FACT (don't ask for evidence of that either please), I give up. Sort of... I know what I have to offer, what has shown me (me, personally) God, won't do the same for you. It can also be seen as evidence I'm crazy or stupid, immature or brainwashed...and it will be, It always is... So, I won't simply give a list anymore. Stop asking please...

This will be taken as a dodge...either because I don't actually have any, or I'm ashamed as I know it is so weak, this is an elaborate excuse and the atheist chalks it up as a "win" for some reason...

Normally that ends it...to which I must reply...



Find Your Hand in a Dream



...o kay... Odd...

Extra-ordinary even.

How is that "evidence"?

Well, do it...and you tell me what you get out of it... Then, we'll go from there. It won't show you God, but if you accomplish it, I guarantee it will show you how it is that people can think they have found Him. Your paradigm will shift...and I have to caution, you might not like it.

Now, lets discuss the nature of your willingness to try or not...

[Artie]

See, here I guarantee you will better understand how it that people believe in God. I do provide you an extraordinary (a prerequisite) way TO the evidence you supposedly seek...

Just to clarify: Using your method a westerner would find God or Jesus, an Iraqi would find Allah, an Indian would find Bramahn or anyone whose religion covers gods on this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities would find their particular deity or would everybody find the Christian God?

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

It is a conclusion I've fought tooth and nail against coming to, but all the evidence points to it.

You can't make yourself believe the sky is green because you KNOW it is not. You aren't ignorant about it... You don't KNOW whether God exists or not. You ARE ignorant about that, so it is a different situation... You believe despite not knowing. That is one definition of faith.

I don't know whether gods exist or not, correct - that's why I'm an agnostic. But I can't make myself believe in one because I know that the evidence I have seen so far is completely unconvincing. I can't make myself believe in something just because I want to believe in it. I wanted to believe in god. But I can't. That you choose to dismiss personal testimony that conflicts with your position shows an adherence to dogma, not an evaluation of the evidence.

Immortality is as much a threat as a promise. There are ample reasons to hope God doesn't exist... Wishful thinking goes both ways...

Not as I see it. I want to live forever (or at least a really long time!). Eternal bliss sounds great to me. I would love nothing more than to be reunited with my deceased loved ones someday. I would love to have clear purpose in my life, a book of rules to follow, and the social support that goes along with it. Dismiss my testimony if you must. Quite simply, I can't make myself believe in something if the evidence available to me doesn't convince me.

See, here I guarantee you will better understand how it that people believe in God. I do provide you an extraordinary (a prerequisite) way TO the evidence you supposedly seek...and still, all I get is "prove it'll be there" first, or a mindless "nah" or presumptions about the nature of dreams... Not a single question of 'how might I go about finding my hand" or even "why would that do any good?" - Thus my conclusion that if the evidence doesn't appear in an impossible for anyone to produce form, you WON'T believe.

Is there a special method to finding my hand that I need to follow? If so, I can't imagine why you would leave such important information out. I already said I'd give it a try.

Additionally, I didn't ask you to prove it will work before I try it. I asked you to explain the process and the expected results in more detail.

Please try to keep in mind that your conviction that the evidence is impossible to produce is based on your own special, personal revelation from your god - it doesn't necessarily make any sense to anyone else. From my point of view, it is completely reasonable to request evidence from you when you make claims regarding things like the relationship between lucid dreaming and god belief. When you fail to produce such evidence, or show any signs of having attempted to even gather any, it does not inspire confidence.

[Awediot]

That you choose to dismiss personal testimony that conflicts with your position shows an adherence to dogma, not an evaluation of the evidence.

My disdain and battle against 'dogma' has effectively eliminated it as a relevant influence in my life. I've chosen this bizarre route because Christianity has little to say about it one way or the other... I'm not going to try because I'm not convinced trying would do anything isn't what I consider personal testimony.

Quite simply, I can't make myself believe in something if the evidence available to me doesn't convince me.

This hasn't even gotten to the point of convincing or not...It is something unusual to explore with an open mind. Blowing it off prematurely is the evidence I'm observing.

Is there a special method to finding my hand that I need to follow? If so, I can't imagine why you would leave such important information out. I already said I'd give it a try.

I don't really consider:

Well, if I ever get around to accomplishing lucid dreaming,

... not much of a declaration that you are willing to try, but I may be wrong... If you now are, great.

I left out the information as to HOW, to see if anyone would ask. I'm being methodical...

It takes practice...and that begins with a sincere effort to want to accomplish the action... Simply WANT to... Think about it more. Make it a priority...

Additionally, I didn't ask you to prove it will work before I try it. I asked you to explain the process and the expected results in more detail.

I didn't see a request to explain the process...and it's one of those things that are quite suggestible. To tell you what to expect can taint what must be a personal experience...

But, we can get into that more if you'd like.

> It's like trying to explain what falling in love is like to someone who never has, and demands you make it clear to them before they will peruse it... At some point, they just have to experience it for them self.

[Awediot]

See, here I guarantee you will better understand how it that people believe in God. I do provide you an extraordinary (a prerequisite) way TO the evidence you supposedly seek...

Just to clarify: Using your method a westerner would find God or Jesus, an Iraqi would find Allah, an Indian would find Bramahn or anyone whose religion covers gods on this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities would find their particular deity or would everybody find the Christian God?

People can see through their cultural indoctrinations at some point and recognize the influence of their own bias...

I've not said anyone will find "God", much less a particular one. ...You will find a new way to examine what has become familiar evidence in a different way. which can still be spun according to a variety of things... I offer a different means, not necessarily end.

[Awediot]

there is no mystery to dreams.

Not really true... We can study them to some degree scientifically, and have all sorts of theories what they are and why we dream...but they are also infamously "strange" and elusive...and have been recognized as powerful tools in every spiritual tradition known to man...for good reason.

You breath without conscious thought...or you can take control of it... This presents us a link between the conscious and subconscious... So does lucid dreaming, but in a far more powerful way...

To accomplish a waking task while asleep is quite stunning the first time you do it. It bridges a gap most people can't even imagine... Until one does it, all they can do is guess about it, and they are always wrong. It's shocking and does jar us out of our routine way of thinking.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

I've chosen this bizarre route because Christianity has little to say about it one way or the other...

What? That belief is a choice is a pretty major aspect of Christian belief outside of Calvanism.

This hasn't even gotten to the point of convincing or not...It is something unusual to explore with an open mind. Blowing it off prematurely is the evidence I'm observing.

I don't think you're observing that, I think you're pretending to observe that because it better fits with your biases.

Additionally, I didn't ask you to prove it will work before I try it. I asked you to explain the process and the expected results in more detail.

I didn't see a request to explain the process...and it's one of those things that are quite suggestible. To tell you what to expect can taint what must be a personal experience...

But, we can get into that more if you'd like.

> It's like trying to explain what falling in love is like to someone who never has, and demands you make it clear to them before they will peruse it... At some point, they just have to experience it for them self.

"I didn't see anyone even asking for more explanation."
"I asked you for more explanation."
"Well it's not really the sort of thing you can explain."

It's been months since I last had a dream. It will probably take a while before I am able to accomplish your request, especially since it requires practice. In the meantime, I will ask you again, try to consider this whole thing from my perspective. Forget everything you know about god. Then read your own posts. Try to imagine how you sound to other people, and you will better understand why people don't take you terribly seriously. Especially when you don't answer questions or respond to points in a particularly direct manner. If someone is making an effort to understand your point of view, don't play games with them, don't dismiss their positions in favour of what you would prefer to imagine their positions are, don't assume the problem with communication lies with everyone else. It makes "conversing" with you exhausting.

[Artie]

People can see through their cultural indoctrinations at some point and recognize the influence of their own bias...

I've not said anyone will find "God", much less a particular one. ...You will find a new way to examine what has become familiar evidence in a different way. which can still be spun according to a variety of things... I offer a different means, not necessarily end.

The only way I can see your method be of any use is if hundreds or preferably thousands would be doing it at the same time reporting the same experiences. And then the results would have to be verified and checked for cultural bias and all kinds of other variables...

[Awediot]

don't dismiss their positions in favour of what you would prefer to imagine their positions are,

you mean like you just did:

//I don't think you're observing that, I think you're pretending to observe that because it better fits with your biases. //


If logic is all ya got, all your answers are logically predictable...as were Spocks.


I find it odd you ask nothing about how to accomplish the task quicker...even after I've mentioned I won't elaborate unless asked... Odd, but not surprising anymore. Most atheists aren't interested unless I can prove to them it is worth it beforehand...and I can't.

Life doesn't work that way.

[Awediot]

The only way I can see your method be of any use is if hundreds or preferably thousands would be doing it at the same time reporting the same experiences. And then the results would have to be verified and checked for cultural bias and all kinds of other variables...

My point exactly Artie... You need other people to confirm it for you before you even try. And Then it's just an argument from popular vote, which you won't believe either.

Seen it a million times.

[Artie]

The only way I can see your method be of any use is if hundreds or preferably thousands would be doing it at the same time reporting the same experiences. And then the results would have to be verified and checked for cultural bias and all kinds of other variables...

My point exactly Artie... You need other people to confirm it for you before you even try. And Then it's just an argument from popular vote, which you won't believe either.

Seen it a million times.

What good would it do anyone if I just find out something that only subjectively applies to me and nobody else and is not objectively true? What would be the point?