Evidence, schmevidence and the extraordinary

[Awediot]

"I believe in God."


Is that a "claim"? ...Sort of. But a claim seems to imply I want you to believe too, and am ready, willing and able to try and convince you by providing reasons and evidence why you should believe too... Well, half right.

This infamous, under AND overestimated thing called "evidence" comes with some sometimes spoken, always implied qualifiers... It must be "sufficient" enough to "convince", and appropriately "extraordinary" while at the same time "rational" enough to essentially remove all doubt, or "prove" God on a case by case basis... If it's not, it doesn't qualify, is considered too 'personal' and isn't useful enough to be deemed real "evidence" at all...(except maybe to that particular theist, who we all know is just making it up anyway...seeing what they want to.)

So if asked what sort or amount of "evidence" the person wants, either it is spectacular and impossible for a mere human to produce (esp. over the internet), or they aren't sure...but if you don't produce it, you fail to meet your responsibility to back up your claim...even if all you did was say what you believe.

Then as the cherry on top, ANYTHING might actually be Aliens, or some terrorist secret weapon, or food poisoning or a brain tumor, or..or...amazing, but NOT GOD anyway...

It's a catch 22... I cannot produce the required miracle, or define what the person is demanding if they them self don't even know, or even if presented written in the clouds, then prove it really is GOD... It is impossible to present such "evidence" on demand with any realistic thought it will do any good. Ever... It never has been sufficient for the person asking for it, or they'd be a theist. That the latest request would be the one that turns them into a Believer, is a pretty silly expectation and both sides no it...yet, what else can we do?

Evidence for God, for a Spiritual Reality, is non-transferable, personal, empirical...and ultimately up to God, not us to give. Like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder... Knowing this as a FACT (don't ask for evidence of that either please), I give up. Sort of... I know what I have to offer, what has shown me (me, personally) God, won't do the same for you. It can also be seen as evidence I'm crazy or stupid, immature or brainwashed...and it will be, It always is... So, I won't simply give a list anymore. Stop asking please...

This will be taken as a dodge...either because I don't actually have any, or I'm ashamed as I know it is so weak, this is an elaborate excuse and the atheist chalks it up as a "win" for some reason...

Normally that ends it...to which I must reply...



Find Your Hand in a Dream



...o kay... Odd...

Extra-ordinary even.

How is that "evidence"?

Well, do it...and you tell me what you get out of it... Then, we'll go from there. It won't show you God, but if you accomplish it, I guarantee it will show you how it is that people can think they have found Him. Your paradigm will shift...and I have to caution, you might not like it.

Now, lets discuss the nature of your willingness to try or not...

[JayDeist]

See, here I guarantee you will better understand how it that people believe in God. I do provide you an extraordinary (a prerequisite) way TO the evidence you supposedly seek...

Just to clarify: Using your method a westerner would find God or Jesus, an Iraqi would find Allah, an Indian would find Bramahn or anyone whose religion covers gods on this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities would find their particular deity or would everybody find the Christian God?

People can see through their cultural indoctrinations at some point and recognize the influence of their own bias...

I've not said anyone will find "God", much less a particular one. ...You will find a new way to examine what has become familiar evidence in a different way. which can still be spun according to a variety of things... I offer a different means, not necessarily end.

This sounds similar to a shamanistic approach. Psychotropic drugs, and altered states have been used to "connect" to God for a long time. This sounds similar, seeing as how it could be considered to be a type of altered state of consciousness produced from lucid dreaming. I have tried lucid dreaming many times before. Unfortunately, I have not been able to experience it.

[Awediot]

What good would it do anyone if I just find out something that only subjectively applies to me and nobody else and is not objectively true? What would be the point?

It would do you good.

DO you need to be able to prove things to everyone in order for you to consider it valuable? Do you need everyone to agree in order for you to believe it?

[Awediot]

This sounds similar to a shamanistic approach. Psychotropic drugs, and altered states have been used to "connect" to God for a long time. This sounds similar, seeing as how it could be considered to be a type of altered state of consciousness produced from lucid dreaming. I have tried lucid dreaming many times before. Unfortunately, I have not been able to experience it.

It sort of is...but there is nothing necessarily mystical about lucid dreaming...but there might be; that's why it's an interesting thing to explore.

This exercise is directed mostly at those who hold zero belief in anything "spiritual" because they've never experienced anything like it... Here is a chance to.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

I find it odd you ask nothing about how to accomplish the task quicker...even after I've mentioned I won't elaborate unless asked... Odd, but not surprising anymore. Most atheists aren't interested unless I can prove to them it is worth it beforehand...and I can't.

Life doesn't work that way.

I find it odd that rather discuss this topic openly you prefer to play games like this. Good luck...

[Awediot]

I find it odd you ask nothing about how to accomplish the task quicker...even after I've mentioned I won't elaborate unless asked... Odd, but not surprising anymore. Most atheists aren't interested unless I can prove to them it is worth it beforehand...and I can't.

Life doesn't work that way.

I find it odd that rather discuss this topic openly you prefer to play games like this. Good luck...

I find the parameters you use to define "discuss openly" odd, redundant and pointless myself.

That's the point... Thanks anyway.

[Artie]

What good would it do anyone if I just find out something that only subjectively applies to me and nobody else and is not objectively true? What would be the point?

It would do you good.

But my concern isn't only for myself. If we find something objectively true and applies to everybody it will benefit everybody not just me.

DO you need to be able to prove things to everyone in order for you to consider it valuable?

If it just applies to me and isn't provable to be objectively true and therefore valuable to everybody else what's the point of it? The world is full of mental hospitals with people having subjective experiences only "valuable" to them.

Do you need everyone to agree in order for you to believe it?

No, it would have to be shown to be objectively true. I will not under any circumstance believe in Santa Claus unless shown irrefutable evidence that he exists.

[Awediot]

But my concern isn't only for myself. If we find something objectively true and applies to everybody it will benefit everybody not just me.

So your search for truth is purely altruistic then? And those who believe subjectively are selfish...

"No...that's not what you meant..."

If it just applies to me and isn't provable to be objectively true and therefore valuable to everybody else what's the point of it? The world is full of mental hospitals with people having subjective experiences only "valuable" to them.

Oh...you meant those who believe in things they can't prove to others are psychotic.

Then drag out this old Santa strawman:

No, it would have to be shown to be objectively true. I will not under any circumstance believe in Santa Claus unless shown irrefutable evidence that he exists.

Prove your spouse or girl/boy friend really cares about you and isn't just using you for something... Or your parents or family.

Like most atheists, you probably believe intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe... despite zero real evidence... Convince me to believe too...

You can't?

You're insane...

That was easy.

[Goat]

Like most atheists, you probably believe intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe... despite zero real evidence... Convince me to believe too...

You can't?

You're insane...

That was easy.

Well, there isn't ZERO evidence.... and that evidence is 'Intelligent life can exist since it developed on our planet.

Then, we have the evidence that the building blocks of life are everyplace.. we even found planets that are near earth size, that reside in the 'Goldilocks zone'.

Considering there are an estimated 30 sextillion stars, I would say it is possible that we are alone. I don't consider it proven though.... and i also highly doubt that even if we aren't, we will be communicating with them .

[Artie]

But my concern isn't only for myself. If we find something objectively true and applies to everybody it will benefit everybody not just me.

So your search for truth is purely altruistic then? And those who believe subjectively are selfish...

Whatever I might experience subjectively isn't true before it's corroborated objectively. It's not about altruism or selfishness. Truth is what can be objectively verified to be true and therefore applies to everybody.

If it just applies to me and isn't provable to be objectively true and therefore valuable to everybody else what's the point of it? The world is full of mental hospitals with people having subjective experiences only "valuable" to them.

Oh...you meant those who believe in things they can't prove to others are psychotic.

Do you know of anyone admitted to a mental hospital with subjective experiences of a supernatural nature that has later been confirmed to be objectively true?

No, it would have to be shown to be objectively true. I will not under any circumstance believe in Santa Claus unless shown irrefutable evidence that he exists.

Prove your spouse or girl/boy friend really cares about you and isn't just using you for something... Or your parents or family.

You are confusing proof with evidence. I have an inordinate amount of evidence collected through many years that my wife really cares about me, so much that it is in all likelihood true.

Like most atheists, you probably believe intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe... despite zero real evidence... Convince me to believe too...

Are you creating a straw man? We have no irrefutable evidence that life does or does not exist elsewhere in the universe and have no reliable way of estimating even the likelihood because of the many factors involved. I personally believe that at least during the lifetime of the universe some intelligent life might have developed. But why would I try to convince you to believe me without evidence? I'm not religious.

[Awediot]

Whatever I might experience subjectively isn't true before it's corroborated objectively. It's not about altruism or selfishness. Truth is what can be objectively verified to be true and therefore applies to everybody.

Then I've no reason to think your wife actually loves you. Her motives are suspect.

Do you know of anyone admitted to a mental hospital with subjective experiences of a supernatural nature that has later been confirmed to be objectively true?

No. I hang with a saner group of people who risk prison occasionally, not mental hospitals

You are confusing proof with evidence. I have an inordinate amount of evidence collected through many years that my wife really cares about me, so much that it is in all likelihood true.

You claim she loves you... What objective evidence do have for that? Unless you suggest I take your word (or hers) for it...

I personally believe that at least during the lifetime of the universe some intelligent life might have developed. But why would I try to convince you to believe me without evidence? I'm not religious.

I likewise have reasons to believe in God... and have little interest in convincing you of that unless you ask... It is not a CLAIM I make with the intent of backing up, because I can't...and yet the demands keep coming.