Evidence, schmevidence and the extraordinary

[Awediot]

"I believe in God."


Is that a "claim"? ...Sort of. But a claim seems to imply I want you to believe too, and am ready, willing and able to try and convince you by providing reasons and evidence why you should believe too... Well, half right.

This infamous, under AND overestimated thing called "evidence" comes with some sometimes spoken, always implied qualifiers... It must be "sufficient" enough to "convince", and appropriately "extraordinary" while at the same time "rational" enough to essentially remove all doubt, or "prove" God on a case by case basis... If it's not, it doesn't qualify, is considered too 'personal' and isn't useful enough to be deemed real "evidence" at all...(except maybe to that particular theist, who we all know is just making it up anyway...seeing what they want to.)

So if asked what sort or amount of "evidence" the person wants, either it is spectacular and impossible for a mere human to produce (esp. over the internet), or they aren't sure...but if you don't produce it, you fail to meet your responsibility to back up your claim...even if all you did was say what you believe.

Then as the cherry on top, ANYTHING might actually be Aliens, or some terrorist secret weapon, or food poisoning or a brain tumor, or..or...amazing, but NOT GOD anyway...

It's a catch 22... I cannot produce the required miracle, or define what the person is demanding if they them self don't even know, or even if presented written in the clouds, then prove it really is GOD... It is impossible to present such "evidence" on demand with any realistic thought it will do any good. Ever... It never has been sufficient for the person asking for it, or they'd be a theist. That the latest request would be the one that turns them into a Believer, is a pretty silly expectation and both sides no it...yet, what else can we do?

Evidence for God, for a Spiritual Reality, is non-transferable, personal, empirical...and ultimately up to God, not us to give. Like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder... Knowing this as a FACT (don't ask for evidence of that either please), I give up. Sort of... I know what I have to offer, what has shown me (me, personally) God, won't do the same for you. It can also be seen as evidence I'm crazy or stupid, immature or brainwashed...and it will be, It always is... So, I won't simply give a list anymore. Stop asking please...

This will be taken as a dodge...either because I don't actually have any, or I'm ashamed as I know it is so weak, this is an elaborate excuse and the atheist chalks it up as a "win" for some reason...

Normally that ends it...to which I must reply...



Find Your Hand in a Dream



...o kay... Odd...

Extra-ordinary even.

How is that "evidence"?

Well, do it...and you tell me what you get out of it... Then, we'll go from there. It won't show you God, but if you accomplish it, I guarantee it will show you how it is that people can think they have found Him. Your paradigm will shift...and I have to caution, you might not like it.

Now, lets discuss the nature of your willingness to try or not...

[Goat]

And, how does that matter at all? Does my want or desire affect your ability to provide evidence you can SHOW ME?

Oh...and yes.

And why woudl that be? What you present is either evidence or wishful thinking.

There are a number of things in this world I would love to be true. That doesn't mean I believe in them without evidence.

There are also a number of things I wish were false, but based on the evidence I have, I have to accept as true.

[Awediot]

And why woudl that be? What you present is either evidence or wishful thinking.

And YOU are the one who will decide which...according to some relative criteria which may or may not be mine...your parents, neighbors, peers, leaders...philosophers or yes, even those sacred scientists.

Please...give me a clue as to what sort of evidence that God exists I could possibly provide you in written or visual or link form in this format, over the internet? When you ask for this abstract, yet mind alteringly powerful thing called "evidence", (sufficient enough to remove your reasonable doubts enough to make you a theist), what do you visualize or imagine possibly doing the trick from your screen?

Let me know what is extraordinary enough to be delivered in this ordinary way,and I'll see what I can do...because THIS:


...and the to me, earth cracking story behind it which brought me to the tears that inspired my pseudonym, will be nothing more than an ironic case of serendipitous discovery I'm blowing way out of proportion... to you.

It is only ingrained, obligatory naivete which keeps either of us pretending that this may be the moment of truth, where I manage to give, and you surprisingly get that which curls the sky back on itself like a scroll, rending the veil asunder and for the first time in your life, offers you the peek at what really lies behind the curtain...and pushes you to the point of no return...

I'm beyond flattered if you honestly think I may be the one to show you GOD...

There are a number of things in this world I would love to be true. That doesn't mean I believe in them without evidence.

There are also a number of things I wish were false, but based on the evidence I have, I have to accept as true.

Have you ever had a friend betray you horribly...or had a loved one cheat? Ever know someone who endured the emergence and domination of a disease? Smelled dope on your twelve year old's coat? Sensed you had been found out, and were about to get busted?

Even as evidence mounts, and the terrible truth becomes blatant to everyone but you...it's not really evidence; there are other explanations...

We call it "the forest for the trees"..."hiding in plain sight"...'head in the clouds"..."blinders"....the "benefit of the doubt"..."a silver lining"...seeing the good in all things.... optimism gone wild.... Usually, when we can't sustain the illusion any longer, and have to admit being the last to know, it's not an epiphany... We sort of knew all along...but couldn't accept the reality which relentlessly imposed itself on us...


> Less than two weeks ago, it was reported some 63 billion dollars was awarded to the FAA in preparation for inserting possibly 30,000 unmanned drones into commercial and private airspace above the U.S.. to help law enforcement and surveillance...

What do you want to believe about that?

What do you actually believe?

What do you fear?


Do you really think your desire, and your dread about this unprecedented, controversial move by Obama, has no impact on what you think about it?

[Awediot]

Why would lucid dreaming be evidence of anything going on except in your brain?

As Descartes thinking he therefore was, and solipsism born of the inability to prove you are really there...and The Matrix most recently revived in the pop culture pseudo-intellectual psyche...it's all a Martian program being fed to my vatted brain, which I can't help but to mistake for reality... Nothing can absolutely be evidence it's not all in my head... [font=Times New Roman]Lucid dreaming is nothing when even your real senses aren't to be trusted...[/font]

If it's all in my head, it's one insanely huge, all encompassing head that could invent the mind boggling things of science, art, literature and humanism that I am just beginning to grasp... Thank you for the compliment...but sadly no, even my big head is humbled by what won't ever fit inside it.

!When you come to an awareness of fact you couldn't have known...or are given an answer you can't explain, or insight beyond your capacity, from a being you meet, just once, or night after night in your sleep...and you begin to sense that just maybe it's not all as safely isolated in your own mind as you thought..reality peels away like worn out paper walls of the sanctuary that's suddenly done coddling you... "Unnerving" is the most you let yourself feel at first-

Attending to 'the Supernatural', as this site generally does, attracts it's attention...and causes it to attend right back at you... Your belief is and always has been quite secondary when other beings, human or otherwise, know you exist...and have a stake in you... Your doubting suits many of them just fine...

As for 'tell him when you see him', other than your personal believe, how do you know there is a 'him' at all?

I would only use the term 'know' God exists to bait someone into making me corner myself. I prefer to cling to some modicum of doubt...despite 'his/hers/its' chuckling at me in the places I forget to listen in...

I personally don't care if you 'found god' at all.. as long as you keep your religious beliefs off the laws that effect me.

Politicizing my spiritual beliefs through legislating esoteric, impractical morality isn't a rational mix... If you cause or increase excessive harm, you become destructive. Depending on the degree, you may merit a gentle nudge, or to be forcibly removed from society until you mature into understanding the pain you needlessly caused, and radiate genuine sorrow and horror at what you allowed yourself to do...Once you truly understand and pose no more additional risk...go- be free... None of that is based on my religion...
___________________________________________________________'(_____

[font=Times New Roman]If you find your hand, it will likely jolt you awake...at first... It gets easier as you learn to identify the mental triggers. The next step is to stay asleep...

When you can, lower your hand, and observe the dream that continues behind it... Stay asleep, knowing you are experiencing whatever the dream has put you in the middle of...and knowing you are also safely tucked into bed...with so many hours left until you will wake...

Enjoy and get familiar with the sense of bilocation...don't let it fade away...

Welcome... Now, you get to explore.


...[/font]

[dianaiad]

"I believe in God."


Is that a "claim"? ...Sort of. But a claim seems to imply I want you to believe too, and am ready, willing and able to try and convince you by providing reasons and evidence why you should believe too... Well, half right.
please), I give up.

Nice try.

But no dice.

"I believe in God" is simply a statement. I say it all the time. What am I SUPPOSED to say..."I believe in God..." and insert all sorts of disclaimers saying that just because I do doesn't mean YOU must?

Baaahhh..

It's a statement. I would be lying if I said I didn't believe in God.

.....and I am not implying what you are inferring.

Even if I followed the "I believe in God and this is why...." It's STILL not a claim that you MUST believe yourself. It's simply an offering of evidence that you may, or may not, accept as such.

Only if I said/wrote something like "I believe this and if you don't you are going to hell'...or the equivalent, do you have any reason to get peeved about this, or infer a claim that "I believe in God' is the same claim as 'God exists and you have to believe that too."

And boy, am I tired of the double standard going on here, anyway. Y'all yell and shout that MY saying 'I believe in God' means that I must prove that to you or else I have to stop saying that within your ear/eye range, but YOU folks (the critics) can make all sorts of stupid claims and we theists have to swallow them without challenge?

I don't think so.

"I believe in God" is merely a claim that I, me, personally, actually believes in deity.

It's not a claim that YOU must. I don't have to prove that HE exists to YOU before I am allowed to believe myself.

.............unless you are willing to show me empirical PROOF that there is no god?

????????????????